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Author Topic: How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?  (Read 19562 times)

Offline neilep

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« on: 18/05/2008 21:54:50 »
Dear Ignitilogists,

See The Matchstick ?




Nice eh ?....it's just been lit !


How hot is it at the very point of ignition right there on the head ?



I bet it's quite hot eh ?.....hotter than a chicken Vindaloo !!

Thanks for your kind consideration in this matter.


neil
Matchtick Ignition Asker
xxxxxxx





 

Offline JimBob

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #1 on: 19/05/2008 15:40:24 »
fiery hot, cloven hoofed beastie.
 

Offline neilep

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #2 on: 19/05/2008 15:45:52 »
fiery hot, cloven hoofed beastie.

Well !!.....I'm convinced !! and thus consider this thread well and truly resolved !

Thank you Rock Master
 

Offline Bored chemist

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #3 on: 19/05/2008 19:19:31 »
I'm pretty sure it will be somewhere between 1000 and 2000 C
If someone gives me a research grant big enough I will measure it.
 

Offline neilep

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #4 on: 19/05/2008 19:31:17 »
I'm pretty sure it will be somewhere between 1000 and 2000 C
If someone gives me a research grant big enough I will measure it.

I'll send you a box of matches !!

Will that help ?
 

Offline RD

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #5 on: 24/05/2008 16:48:04 »
It is possible to estimate temperature by the colour of the flame...
http://www.mediacollege.com/lighting/colour/colour-temperature.html
(I'd guess your match is nearer 2000K than 1000K)
 

Offline lightarrow

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #6 on: 24/05/2008 20:34:58 »
It is possible to estimate temperature by the colour of the flame...
http://www.mediacollege.com/lighting/colour/colour-temperature.html
(I'd guess your match is nearer 2000K than 1000K)
It's very difficult to estimate the temperature from a photo (the real color can be very different) and especially using a chart like the one you linked. Also remember that colour temperature refers to a blackbody (and I'm not sure that match is).
 

Offline RD

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #7 on: 24/05/2008 21:21:05 »
Here the temperature of a candle is listed as 1930K ...

http://www.atsf.co.uk/ilight/tech/thermal.html

You could try photographing a candle and a match together and compare their colours,
(I suspect they are very similar).

« Last Edit: 24/05/2008 21:26:21 by RD »
 

Offline lightarrow

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #8 on: 26/05/2008 12:34:16 »
Here the temperature of a candle is listed as 1930K ...

http://www.atsf.co.uk/ilight/tech/thermal.html

You could try photographing a candle and a match together and compare their colours,
(I suspect they are very similar).


Common iron (for example a nail) melts at about 1800K; common steels even lower. Try to melt an iron nail with a candle and then put your results here.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #9 on: 26/05/2008 13:40:53 »
"Try to melt an iron nail with a candle and then put your results here."
What would that actually tell you? Might it tell you more about the efficiency of heatsinks than the temperature of flames?
If I get steel wool and put it in a candle flame it burns.
 

Offline lightarrow

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #10 on: 26/05/2008 15:43:13 »
"Try to melt an iron nail with a candle and then put your results here."
What would that actually tell you? Might it tell you more about the efficiency of heatsinks than the temperature of flames?
If I get steel wool and put it in a candle flame it burns.
I forgot the oxidation! Yes it burns because it reaches a T high enough to start the reaction, but this doesn't tell you this temperature is the melting point.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #11 on: 27/05/2008 11:27:57 »
It tells you it's very hard to use melting steel to measure the temperature of a candle flame because, for bits of steel small enough to melt, oxidation happens so quickly the stuff catches fire.

Fine copper wire melts easilly enough in a candle flame- that's about 1350K

Adding something, like a nail, to the flame will clearly change the properties of the flame.
Much better to use something that's already there. Flames are full of hot gases and soot. Fortunately for us the soot is a near perfect black body emitter so we can use the colour temperature as a good measure of the real temperature. A spot of web searching gives a range of values for the colour temperature of a candle from about 1800 to 2000K.

A look back at the original question of match heads makes it even clearer that we can't really use melting lumps of metal to measure temperatures. The match head is small and the flare doesn't last very long so there wouldn't be enough heat or time to melt metal well even if the instantaneous temperature were high enough. Also the environment is very chemically reactive so the problem of oxidation wold be even more severe.
Measuring the emission spectrum of a match wouldn't be very difficult and matching it ( please forgive the pun) to a black-body emission curve should give a reasonable measure of the temperature.
 

Offline lightarrow

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #12 on: 27/05/2008 12:39:22 »
It tells you it's very hard to use melting steel to measure the temperature of a candle flame because, for bits of steel small enough to melt, oxidation happens so quickly the stuff catches fire.

Fine copper wire melts easilly enough in a candle flame- that's about 1350K

Adding something, like a nail, to the flame will clearly change the properties of the flame.
Much better to use something that's already there. Flames are full of hot gases and soot. Fortunately for us the soot is a near perfect black body emitter so we can use the colour temperature as a good measure of the real temperature. A spot of web searching gives a range of values for the colour temperature of a candle from about 1800 to 2000K.

A look back at the original question of match heads makes it even clearer that we can't really use melting lumps of metal to measure temperatures. The match head is small and the flare doesn't last very long so there wouldn't be enough heat or time to melt metal well even if the instantaneous temperature were high enough. Also the environment is very chemically reactive so the problem of oxidation wold be even more severe.
Measuring the emission spectrum of a match wouldn't be very difficult and matching it ( please forgive the pun) to a black-body emission curve should give a reasonable measure of the temperature.
I would say I agree on almost all of what you say, but what doesn't convince me is the fact a candle flame could be as hot as 1930K (1657 C).
Here:
http://www.doctorfire.com/flametmp.html
at the section "Flame types" it says:
"A peak temperature of around 1400C is found in a candle flame [3]"
 

Offline Bored chemist

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #13 on: 27/05/2008 15:03:51 »
Well, this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_flame_temperature
would put an upper bound of about 1950C ie 2200K on the temperature of a candle flame.
We know it's hotter than 1083C ie 1350K because it melts copper.
Until someone does the experiment and measures the temperature of a candle flame I guess all we can say is somewhere between those limits. An average gives about 1500C which is close enough to the value you quoted.

Incidentally, do you know that a flame has several different temperatures at the same time and that these temperatures also vary with position in the flame?
 

Offline RD

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #14 on: 27/05/2008 15:56:18 »
Common iron (for example a nail) melts at about 1800K; common steels even lower. Try to melt an iron nail with a candle and then put your results here.

In the movie "Escape from Alcatraz" a bundle of matches is used to weld two small bits of metal,
a bit like a thermite reaction which can weld (melt) iron.
This "Hollywood science" may actually be possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
   
 

Offline lightarrow

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #15 on: 27/05/2008 16:22:35 »
Common iron (for example a nail) melts at about 1800K; common steels even lower. Try to melt an iron nail with a candle and then put your results here.

In the movie "Escape from Alcatraz" a bundle of matches is used to weld two small bits of metal,
a bit like a thermite reaction which can weld (melt) iron.
This "Hollywood science" may actually be possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
   
1. I've seen the movie, but the fact something is presented in a movie doesn't mean it must be true  :)
2. To melt bits of metal (even if iron or steel) you don't necessarily have to melt iron or steel.
3. Thermite reaction has nothing to do with it.
 

Offline RD

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #16 on: 27/05/2008 16:29:31 »
I just mentioned thermite as an example of an exothermic reaction of common chemicals which is capable of melting iron.
 

Offline lightarrow

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #17 on: 28/05/2008 12:48:21 »
I just mentioned thermite as an example of an exothermic reaction of common chemicals which is capable of melting iron.
And so? You could mention oxygen + hydrogen or oxygen + acetylene, as well (for ex.) or any other similar reaction.
 

Offline RD

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #18 on: 29/05/2008 22:17:03 »
I just mentioned thermite as an example of an exothermic reaction of common chemicals which is capable of melting iron.
And so? You could mention oxygen + hydrogen or oxygen + acetylene, as well (for ex.) or any other similar reaction.

Just trying to point out the surprisingly large amount of energy which can be released by innocuous everyday household chemicals.
The thermite reaction, which is capable of melting iron, uses aluminium and rust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
[Don't try this at home]
« Last Edit: 29/05/2008 22:44:03 by RD »
 

Offline lightarrow

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
« Reply #19 on: 29/05/2008 22:59:21 »
I just mentioned thermite as an example of an exothermic reaction of common chemicals which is capable of melting iron.
And so? You could mention oxygen + hydrogen or oxygen + acetylene, as well (for ex.) or any other similar reaction.

Just trying to point out the surprisingly large amount of energy which can be released by innocuous everyday household chemicals.
The thermite reaction, which is capable of melting iron, uses aluminium and rust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
[Don't try this at home]

If you want to know something more about thermite, try this:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2791.0

and also this:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=7722.0
« Last Edit: 29/05/2008 23:02:40 by lightarrow »
 

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How Hot Is A Match At The Instant Of Ingintion ?
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