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Author Topic: Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?  (Read 138181 times)

Offline Observer

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #50 on: 23/06/2009 21:53:24 »
"And then you said that, in that post, you had said something else; but you hadn't.
Why did you do that?"


Sorry dude, you lost me here...

"Why did you make up the strawman?"

Do you mean this strawman?

"All cases of remission of any disease always happen shortly after something. It doesn't make sense to ascribe the remission to that thing. That's the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That's before you look at the placebo effect (which is a lot more powerful than most people realise)."

That, I'm afraid, was your clever deduction.


"Why the ad hom attacks?"

These are no attacks. You mustn't take things personally if someone tells you that they don't think you have all the answers. You don't have to feel attacked if some people are not willing to swallow some of those ridiculous comparisons and illogical pathetic deductions.

I don't understand why you feel so obligated to have all the answers. Let us leave it at that though because I also stated (in my first post) that I didn't want to offend anybody with my views and above all Peace...

So to sum things up:


- Nothing personal - just strong disagreement with your arguments.

- I would like to post my own experience. Hey who knows maybe I will fall flat on my face and you can in the end say I told you so...

- I don't have the answers I am still searching

If this thread is the wrong platform for what I am doing then someone other than the Bored chemist (again not personal but I think you may be biased) please tell me so and I will quietly and peacefully leave the scene. :-\


 

Offline Bored chemist

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #51 on: 23/06/2009 22:19:08 »
"Sorry dude, you lost me here..."
Then you should be paying attention.
You said this "It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information otherwise you wouldn't continuously ask me for the answers (that I like you don’t yet have) or what I want which I stated in my very first post."
and it isn't true because you didn't say, in your first post anything of the sort.




I already pointed out what the strawman was.
It was this.
"So you are saying that all drugs that are being marketed owe their success in either the placebo effect or are just the so called post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy? Mmmm."

As I pointed out, I didn't say that so, to put this forward as my opinion and then atack it is a strawman argument.

I already asked you not to do it again. Why did you?


As for the ad homs
"These are no attacks. You mustn't take things personally if someone tells you that they don't think you have all the answers."
The issues I raised that is "You may be a lab assistant " and "It would seem though that you are not capable of taking in information " were personal.
Since I made it perfectly clear that those were the issues I was refering to it's yet another strawman for you to say "You mustn't take things personally if someone tells you that they don't think you have all the answers".
Even if you don't think that's personal surely you must understand that describing my obervations as "illogical pathetic deductions" is a personal attack.

I keep asking why you say things that are not true and you simply don't answer.
What does that say about your claim to be objective?

 

Offline Observer

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #52 on: 24/06/2009 08:11:24 »
Bored chemist wrote:

“Most potential treatments don't get tested.
As far as I know nobody has ever tested rectally administered fishpaste, for example, as a cure for malaria. Nor has a double blind trial been done on blood letting by a leather clad virgin at the full moon.”



I am sorry but in my book this is just ridiculous and not relevant at all to the topic of discussion.

Bored chemist wrote:

“If this stuff killed malaria, then malaria would be extinct. Malaria isn't extinct therefore the stuff doesn't work.”

In my opinion this is an illogical incorrect deduction period.

Bored chemist wrote:

I work in a lab; I know what lab results can show and I also know what they cannot show. They cannot (on their own) show cause and effect.

This might lead one to believe that you may be a lab assistant. I recall also seeing a picture of you with a lab coat. If this is not the case I apologize for my implication although I did say “you may be a lab assistant”.


This is a quote from my first post:
"I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views. I am also presently using mms for hep c and from what I have read about Interferon I don't think I have made a bad choice. I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace..."

In that post I clearly state:
I am new here and do not wish to offend anyone with my views
I will post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
Peace...

Just for you Bored chemist so that you finally understand what I want:
I am new here and do not wish want to offend anyone with my views
I will want to post my experience, be it good or bad, based on lab results before and after therapy.
[I want] Peace...
« Last Edit: 24/06/2009 12:32:50 by Observer »
 

Offline stereologist

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #53 on: 24/06/2009 13:41:15 »
The issue of MMS has been discussed in many forums. The issue boils down to claims being made by the sellers that are not substantiated. Instead the sellers make claims and point to poorly or unrelated information to sell their wares. This matter could be simplified if the proponents of MMS would simply point to a study in which MMS is tested. This would be a properly run study, i.e. statistically valid sample size, double blinded, etc.
 

Offline Observer

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« Reply #54 on: 24/06/2009 14:09:14 »
I want to make it perfectly clear at this point that I am no seller nor am I pushing mms. I will also not try to defend treatment with mms or recommend it to anyone as I  have no basis to do so. On the other hand, I am open for alternative methods of treating hep c and all I can offer is results that may or may not turn out to be very disappointing. But, my experiment is not over yet...
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #55 on: 24/06/2009 19:39:09 »
Best of luck, but remember that a single observation, not even single blinded, isn't worth a lot in science.
A few tests on lab rats would carry a whole lot more weight.
Those tests would be cheap and easy.
As far as I can tell they have not been done.
There is clearly an enormous incentive to do this work. (There's more to life than patent rights the man who finds a cheap cure for malaria is going to be famous and there's also the amazing ability to be smug about it.)

Why hasn't someone made their name by doing this fairly simple test?
Do you accept that one reason- perhaps the simplest reason- is that they tried it, it didn't work and they didn't bother to publish their failure?

Incidentally,
Re. "I recall also seeing a picture of you with a lab coat. "
Where?
 

Offline Observer

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #56 on: 24/06/2009 21:38:22 »
"Best of luck, but remember that a single observation, not even single blinded, isn't worth a lot in science."
Thank you and I realize this. I am really not trying to achieve anything scientific. It's more to the note of trying to find a cure for myself and logging my experience.

It can work both ways:

Either I am successfull and others may want to take the chance for themselves with all the risks involved.

or

I am not successfull and this fact can help those thinking about trying it to make the correct decision for themselves.

Where?
When I first entered this Forum right before I quoted you for the first time I recall looking at a profile and seeing a person with a white lab coat (For some reason I associated this person with you). I might very well have been looking at someone else as I was not familiar with the names here.


 

Offline werewolf

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #57 on: 29/06/2009 14:17:53 »
In reading this discussion, I find it fraught with peculiarly non-scientific emotionalism for a website based upon science. Arguments here seem to be comprised of assumptions. For example, BoredChemist says that one proof that MMS does not work is that, if it did, malaria would have already been eradicated because it would be in widespread usage throughout the world. That presupposes that information flows unhindered by superstition, venal financial interests, political influences, etc., which is obviously not at all true. For example, two Australian doctors determined that ulcers were not caused by stress, but by the bacterium Helicopter Pylori. It took twelve years for that information to reach critical mass in the medical community. That means that for 11 3/4 years, there were doctors still performing surgery on people with ulcers, still handing out the old ulcer remedies from the 1920's, rather than giving an antibiotic to kill the H. Pylori bugs and cure the ulcers. That same effect could be at work regarding MMS.

It has been said here that anecdotal evidence in the form of testimonials should be rejected, and only evidence resulting from proper double-blind clinical studies accepted. In an ideal world that would be true but in this world, research of that caliber is expensive and is usually only initiated by pharmaceutical companies that can profit from the results. Thus there is no financial incentive for testing non-patentable materials. Since that is the case, people searching for answers must use whatever means they can in gleaning information from all of the varied sources --some good, some bad-- out there.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #58 on: 29/06/2009 20:12:12 »
"A few tests on lab rats would carry a whole lot more weight.
Those tests would be cheap and easy.
As far as I can tell they have not been done."
Political and financial interests can work both ways.
The experiments give the real annswer.

H pyloris took a long while to be accepted, but in the end it was (and the matter isn't as clear as you make it look.  The bacterium was found in people who didn't have ulcers so the evidence was that the bug did not (on its own) cause ulcers. The doctors may be conservative, but they are not stupid)

There is good, strong evidence which proves that this magic cure can't be real- it still works after you have destroyed it by reaction with apple juice (specifically with the vitamin C).

Do you understand that?
It's scientific proof that this stuff cannot work as described. The stuff is just a pinch of salt by the time people take it.

Once you add the fact that the purveyors of this quackery are the same ones who tried to fob off HIV/AIDS sufferers with  a toxic industrial solvent (DMF) as a cure I really don't think it would be ethical to sacrifice the rats.

OK, so I do get angry about this sort of thing- not with the people who have posted here, but with the snake oil salesmen- no, better yet, let's call them by the proper name, fraudsters- who try to con people, who are generally poorly placed to afford it, out of their hard earned cash. If that emotion comes through then all I can hope is that you are all reasonably understanding.
 

Offline Observer

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #59 on: 20/07/2009 22:04:28 »
I just wanted to check back in and say that I am still alive and that I feel great. I am intentionally not mentioning the details of how much mms I am taking nor how often I take it though I am keeping notes. I hope to post the next lab results by mid August.   
 

Offline crm114

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #60 on: 15/08/2009 14:44:38 »
Hello Observer,

like you I am looking for non-interferon treatment for HepC and with some degree of scepticism embarked on a course of Sodium Chlorite.
I have been taking this since Jan 2009 with short breaks in between. I can report that my AST, ALT and viral load numbers are dropping
consistently over the last 3 blood tests. Prior to this they had been escalating. I do not have the exact figures to hand as I am working
overseas but shall post them when time allows. May I ask what Genotype you have your viral load and what if any other treatment you have
received ? Not sure if this board allows PM'ing but feel free to do so if you wish, I have some other info on non pharma treatments which
are showing positive results.
 

Offline Observer

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #61 on: 19/08/2009 13:03:09 »
Hello CRM114,
it is good to hear from someone else with some positive feedback. At this point little can be said about the effectiveness of our personal mms experiences, nevertheless something is happening and at this point seems to be an overall improvement. When I got my first and second lab test the Genotype /viral load was not included. I will have to ask specifically for these counts prior to the next test. It is unfortunate that I don't have a possibility of comparing the viral load at this point. I just returned from beautiful a Norwegian vacation and have not made my next lab appointment. I will post the next results thereafter. I did drop the frequency to which I was self-administering the mms drastically to avoid a possible imbalance of my oxidant/antioxidant intake.
I found an interesting weblink that may be of general interest:

http://www.gesundheitlicheaufklaerung.de/mms-eine-ganzheitliche-therapie [nofollow]
The report is German but maybe I can find an English translation...



« Last Edit: 19/08/2009 13:23:51 by Observer »
 

Offline tracar

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #62 on: 23/08/2009 05:10:56 »
WOW this thread has gone from great intentions to bitchfest 2009 wtf..
Bored chemist might now his sh1t but is always referencing someone elses work
on the other hand Observer is dooing what i wish everyone would do a bit more (hands on) and in the future
this is exactly what Bored chemist will reference.

so great job Observer and hope you find at least a neutral to a positive result.

after that said . make sure we all wash our hands clean of all the sh1t, after all these public spankings
and get to the point.

results.

edumication : grade 9
occufication : dooer
« Last Edit: 23/08/2009 05:15:07 by tracar »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #63 on: 23/08/2009 10:47:18 »
I note with mild ammusement that you have chosen to comment on other people's stuff, but not to do any work of your own; a bit like someone who "might know his sh1t but is always referencing someone else's work " .
Meanwhile you commend Observe for valliantly wasting his time in spite of the fact that the "miracle cure" cannot work becaue the "active" ingredient is destroyed too rapidly.

An odd choice for a first post here.
 

Offline tracar

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #64 on: 23/08/2009 16:19:09 »
sure thing crazy literal robot man.. its a great thing you were not there to tell our grand parrents they couldn't (do that) and who said anything about a cure, i didn't. but for interests of my own , i would like (your) definition of "cure" and also your definition of a "positive result" not a cut and paste from wikipedia.

and like the meds for Gout :
NSAIDS
colchicine
corticosteroids
ACTH
allopurinol
probenecid

these are by no means a "cure" but if they do have a positive affect or an individual acceptable outcome Great
so now the meds i have listed for the treatment of gout. do you consider any of them them the right choice?
and of those do they have a positive results?

FYI i don't believe in "miracle cure" just +pos "or" -NEG results 
and i wish i did more work of my own. and could be anal about it too
Observer, did i waste your time ???  i hope i didnt.
Bored chemist if you have something to say to me say it now ,so we all get back to the true topic

now you made a great comment bored :
("miracle cure" cannot work because the "active" ingredient is destroyed too rapidly)

1) question to you is this: what % is destroyed before the body can absorb the remainder .if only for a Minuit, say if taken orally (keep in mind this has nothing to do with anything else)

2)has naturally occurring ClO2 ever been found in any bloodwork

3)would you admit this magical mystical cureall ClO2 has to have some kind of magical mystical anti bacterial characteristics (say as a mouth wash/rinse)

4) whats your thoughts on ozone floating free in the home?

« Last Edit: 23/08/2009 18:39:34 by tracar »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #65 on: 23/08/2009 20:49:33 »
Palliative treatment is OK where there is no cure available as with gout but it's the 3rd best option after prevention and cure.
In the case of an acute infection like malaria the definition of a cure is pretty clear- the parasites are dead and the patient isn't. Did you really need me to explain that?

 
 

Offline tracar

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« Reply #66 on: 23/08/2009 22:01:14 »
yes.
and im still waiting for some answers




edumication : grade 9
occupication : dooer
 

Offline crm114

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #67 on: 24/08/2009 04:10:03 »
Hello Observer,

thanks for the link.
It would be interesting to know on what basis the claim is made that the active ingredient only kills "bad" parasites
but regardless of what ever tests have been performed to determine its efficacy, the proof of the pudding is in the
eating, and if it achieves the desired effect without inducing harmful side-effects then that is good enough for me.
Are you actually using the commercial product MMS or are you simply sourcing the chemical and producing your own medication ?
With how much and how frequently are you dosing ?

Although strictly not related to the current topic, the following link may be useful for HepC sufferers. It links to a medical
trial sponsored in part by non other than Roche, which is using IV Silibinin, the active ingredient in Mariendistel which is
well known anecdotaly to have beneficial effects upon liver disorders. If you (or any other interested persons) would like I
can send the trial results in pdf form.

newbielink:http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(08)01412-1/abstract [nonactive]
 

Offline mootieman

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #68 on: 24/08/2009 15:55:59 »
I read all about MMS with interest! I have been using MMS in Africa for a number of things and while i cant tell you that thousands have been fixed i can tell you that i have used it to help more than 100 people now. It is very effective against Malaria but also as a general Cold and Flu presenter. The product has been so successful for us that we now manufacture it here and have many smaller rural clinics using it to help when people suffer from anything that relates to bacteria. Be warned it taste is terrible and it smells bad, but you can mix it with water to help get it down. It is extremely powerful and too much too fast will make you very sick so treat with care.
 

Offline crm114

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Does sodium chlorite have healing powers?
« Reply #69 on: 24/08/2009 18:12:30 »
Hello Mootieman,

Interesting development.
Perhaps you can share with us a few more details of your experiences.
Where are you in Africa and in what capacity do administer MMS, are you working in healthcare ?
Do you keep records of your patients symptoms, treatment regimes and results.
If not, and its not too much trouble perhaps you can consider doing this.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #70 on: 24/08/2009 19:52:32 »
yes.
and im still waiting for some answers





edumication : grade 9
occupication : dooer


Your honesty in admitting to not knowing what "cure " means is remarkable and commendable.
I was in the process of posting a more detailed answer yesterday- but my computer crashed.
Anyway.
I haven't done any experiments on the kinetics of the reaction betwee en chlorite/ClO2 and, for example, ascorbate.
However I can point out the the people who wrote the article cited early on in this thread said that the stuff reacts quickly with things like thiols which are common on the gut.
Since the theory- as put forward- is not internally consistent so it clearly isn't science.
I don't need to do the experiments. They have been done for me. It's just that the people who did them didn't understand what the results meant.

I doubt that anyone has ever looked for ClO2 in blood.
I have an interest in natural products chemistry and I cannot think of a single instance of chlorine in a positive oxidation state anywhere in biology.
Obviously I can't claim to have looked everywhere but since you are the one putting forward the strange idea, it's you who has to prove it.

"would you admit this magical mystical cureall ClO2 has to have some kind of magical mystical anti bacterial characteristics (say as a mouth wash/rinse)"
Since magic doesn't exist the answer has to be no.
It might have a straightforward scientifically reasonable effect as an antibacterial- after all it is toxic so it might kill bugs.
The question of whether or not it kills bugs better than it kills people is another matter.

"whats your thoughts on ozone floating free in the home?"
Who cares?
Anyway, ozone smells and is rather toxic so, in general, this is something to avoid. However, it is a useful oxidant and I sometimes use it (at home). Some of it escapes into the air so I sometimes experience ozone floating round my home.
It doesn't seem to make much odds apart from a funny smell.



« Last Edit: 24/08/2009 19:57:50 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline tracar

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« Reply #71 on: 25/08/2009 01:48:37 »
Wow. presumptuous and computer illiterate all in the same sentence. Were you driving when the crash happend??.
to me it sounds like you would rather demean someone than give (helpfull) advice

have you done any testing with CL02 yourself ,i will assume not.
I have done Many tests. and can say with confidence and without fear of someone trying to debunk my credibility (which isn't much)
that there are definitely benefits to an external use of "mms" as antiviral/antibacterial
and Definitely by testing (with myself) no negative results .

but there is still the excess in citric acid/vinegar/volume that some people can have a negative reaction to. (hypersensitive)/allergy.
cl02 itself. is well misunderstood, and with more open research i think it can do great things
here is an idea "time delay capsule intestinal release" or "saline IV low dose" anyone have a labrat to infect and test???? howbout Boredchemist lol jk.
all in good fun.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #72 on: 25/08/2009 19:52:40 »
Great!
Now all you need to do is replace that ad hom attacks with double-blind trials and you will be doing science.

As for "to me it sounds like you would rather demean someone than give (helpfull) advice"
I guess that depends on whether you think the following advice advice is helpful; don't waste your time on stuff that doesn't make any sense and where even the supporters of it say things that show it cannot work.

I also don't think that infecting rats then poisoning them with this stuff would be ethical.
 

Offline tracar

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« Reply #73 on: 26/08/2009 01:32:42 »
we can all do RCT's  Yaaaaaaaaay!
Ethics. i would rather kill a rat for science than go to war.
but cool beans. back to topic
I have requested about some free labwork from a friend in calgary
based on bloodwork taken every 10 minits after dose CLO2 for duration of 60 minits . if show results will post.
full 10 drops twice daily  [xx(]/ Chemical Analysis to come :P

 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #74 on: 26/08/2009 07:01:12 »
"Ethics. i would rather kill a rat for science than go to war. "
Me too, but where's the science?
 

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