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Author Topic: Why water on Earth and not Venus?  (Read 20972 times)

Offline Exodus

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Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« on: 05/05/2003 00:33:38 »
What do we have to thank for the presence of water on earth which has stopped our planet going the same way as venus? (believe it or not, but venus once had water...)

There are a number of answers i'm looking for and  i'll post them in a few days.
Good Luck.

Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
« Last Edit: 07/07/2004 01:54:27 by Exodus »


 

Offline cuso4

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #1 on: 05/05/2003 08:08:52 »
I'm not good at astronomy, but I'll try. The earth gets heat up by the Sun, and dosen't the water cools the surface temperature of the earth's crust to stop the temperature getting too high? hence stopping it becoming the second Venus.

Other thing is that the greenhouse effect stops the earth getting too cold and becoming the second Mars.

I think (only an opinion) that a long time ago, Venus was once like earth and that Mars will eventually becomes like earth after a very long time.

AG
 

Offline Exodus

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #2 on: 05/05/2003 11:02:39 »
This is more geological/biological rather than astronomical. You are kind of on the right track by bringing the sun into the answer, and the greenhouse effect is important to the answer too, well done. Water doesn't cool the earths crust as our crust is comparitively cool.

I'll give you a clue. You need to focus on the water in the air, the sun, and the greenhouse affect.

Have another go ;o)

Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
 

Offline Quantumcat

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #3 on: 05/05/2003 14:45:45 »
We don't have nearly so much carbon dioxide in our atmosphere, so the sun's light can escape more easily, and doesn't warm up the water so much that it stays permanently in clouds like in venus.

The above answer proably sounds stupid because I have no idea if venus actually does have clouds or has an atmosphere of lots of carbon dioxide but the above is just a guess at part of the answer :p
 

Offline cuso4

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #4 on: 05/05/2003 23:02:00 »
Greenhouse effect works like this: Organisms on earth absorb some radiations like UV from the sun and radiates them as infrared. Because infrared has longer wavelength so doesn't get through the atmosphere easily, heat is trapped to stop earth getting too cold.

Now the next bit might be completely wrong so please correct me.

The water in the atmosphere doesn't get heat up easily because its hydrogen bonding. therefore water absorbs some the heat energy that is trapped inside the earth to stop it from getting too cold.

Angel
 

Offline Exodus

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #5 on: 06/05/2003 14:50:33 »
ok, i'll give you the answer...

The hydrothermal systems at the mid-ocean ridges add water into the new oceanic crust. This plays an important part in the melting process of magma, the formation of volcanoes and the formation of continents. Venus did once have water, similar to earth, yet a key difference separated them. Although both planets devoloped an atmosphere and thus were subject to a greenhouse effect, unfortunately for venus, a what is known as a "runaway greenhouse" occurred in that temperature continued to rise. This resulted in high water evaporation from the surface of venus into the atmosphere. The high levels of H2O in the atmosphere were then bombarded with the suns UV rays and photolysis occured (the H2O was split). The light hydrogen was lost to space leaving oxygen (and the heavier isotope of hydrogen, dueterium) in the atmosphere and eventually a dry planet.

The earth is different, it has what is known as "coldtrap". This is a cold area ~-60 degrees mid way through the atmosphere. You will notice when flying in a plane, outside will be -60 degrees centigrade. You will also see that clouds form a blanket like appearance outside the plane window, this is where water vapour is hitting the cold trap and condensing to form clouds. Interestingly, above this layer,the temperature begins to increase again!

Due to the cold trap, very little water makes it into the upper atmosphere and thus is lost to space through photolysis.

We are losing some water to space, and deep into the mantle, but with rates as they are, we have a good few billion years left yet till we might look like venus... AND with the cyclicity of catastrophic events, the liklihood is that we will have been hit by a comet/meteorite or been wiped out by a supervolcano such as yellowstone before then. [xx(]  



Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
« Last Edit: 06/05/2003 14:55:02 by Exodus »
 

Offline chris

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #6 on: 06/05/2003 18:06:10 »
Good to see that Exodus is back on home territory, at least almost, after his world tour recently which took in, amongst other places, the sandwich islands, Turkmenistan, Hong Kong and the Christmas Islands !

One thing that I have never understood properly are the seasons. I understand that planet's axis changes, altering the attitude of the earth to the sun and hence placing some locations further from the sun at certain times of the year, but how does this come about ?

Chris
 

Offline Exodus

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #7 on: 06/05/2003 20:32:43 »
An interesting question.

It is thought that towards the end of earths formation as it was eventually starting to cool, it was struck by a huge meteorite, in fact, it is believed that it was actually another planet (about the size of mars). This impact would have remelted the earth and sent huge amounts of rock up to surround the earth.

I'll address one thing at a time...

Firstly this impact billions of years ago could well have been responsible for both the rotation of the earth AND its apparent tilt (which leads to our seasons) both of which are probably important in making our planet habitable.
 - i am however uncertain why the earth's tilt changes over its orbit... possibly due to gravity interactions with other planets or the sun).

Secondly, remember the rock ejection i refered to? well this didn't fall back to earth, but actually went on to combine to form our moon. The moon is a principal part of our tides on earth and is also a key factor to many flora/fauna with their reproductive cycle e.g. marine algae such as foraminifera or corals.

The earths temperatures are affected on a much broader scale which is influenced by its non circular orbit around the sun. This means that at some periods in its history it has been further from the sun and has experienced colder conditions and ice ages on a cyclic level. These are known as Milankovitch Cycles, after the scientist Milankovitch. Feel free to look up articles on his work, its quite interesting.

So from catastrophe comes a planet fit for life...

Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
« Last Edit: 06/05/2003 20:44:07 by Exodus »
 

Offline Quantumcat

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #8 on: 06/05/2003 23:26:34 »
Well, what happens with seasons is:

The earth is tilted 23 degrees All The Time! So when it is on one side of its orbit, the south is tilted toward and the north away, and when it is on the other side, the south is tilted away, and the north tilted towards, Because The Sun Is Now On The Other Side !

Ball your fist and hold it in the air. This is the sun. hold your other hand pointing up then tilt it. move it around your other hand without changing the tilt at all. You can see that on one side the south is pointing towards the sun, it's summer in the southern hemisphere. On the other side of the orbit, it's summer in the northern hemisphere!!
 

Offline chris

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #9 on: 07/05/2003 01:22:45 »
Sorry - I can't see it myself. If we assume for the sake of argument that the earth follows a circular orbit around the sun, and then we assume that it is permanently tilted, as you say, then as it orbits it's attitude to the sun will remain the same throughout the year, though obviously with day / night superimposed as the planet spins.

It's the same problem that I have understanding why we can only ever see one face of the moon ?

Chris
 

Offline cuso4

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #10 on: 07/05/2003 17:15:46 »
What Quantumcat said also applies to how much day light a country get. If it's a country near the pole, like UK, then the day is much longer in summer and very short in winter. However if it's near the equator, like Taiwan where I used to live, you get about same amount of daylight in summer and winter.

Angel
 

Offline chris

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #11 on: 07/05/2003 19:50:22 »
Yeeess, true, but still does not explain how the earth 'tilts' on its axis so that it makes one pole close to the sun in summer and further away in winter.

Please will someone clear this one up for me...

Chris
 

Offline Donnah

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #12 on: 08/05/2003 01:22:00 »
Chris,
You may find the answer at http://www.hawking.org.uk/  If you can't find the answer, you can contact Professor Stephen Hawking through the website (he went to Cambridge).
 

Offline Quantumcat

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #13 on: 08/05/2003 05:09:30 »
chris - as to the "why does it tilt" I think it's just going to have to be a "just because it does" answer, unless someone can think of a reason. I don't know if people have measured that the tilt is changing, if it isn't, then I guess that's just how the earth was when it was formed. (and has been ever since) the average of the bottom-most part became all icy, because it was the coldest average bit (furthest from the sun on average) of the bottom half, and the north pole became icy because it is where the coldest average bit is. If the earth was tilted a little more or a little less the poles would have formed in different places.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2003 05:21:12 by Quantumcat »
 

Offline Quantumcat

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #14 on: 08/05/2003 05:17:21 »
Oops I forgot to mention:

You can see only one side of the moon all the time because, the moon does one revolution per orbit (its day is the same length as its year) so as it goes around the earth, it faces it all the time. It's hard to describe, you need to be able to picture it in your mind. I would make a diagram for you out of characters, but unfortunately you can't do more than one space at a time, so it would turn all screwy when I posted this message.
 

Offline chris

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #15 on: 08/05/2003 09:21:57 »
That now makes sense. I did not realise that the day was the same length as the year. That is a bizarre scenario - I wonder how that came about - anyone know ?

As Exodus pointed out earlier, the moon is supposed to have formed following the collision of the earth with a mars-sized planet, ejecting huge amounts of crust material into orbit around the earth. This material coalesced to form the moon, hence explaining why the moon is composed predominantly of 'crust' with very little 'core', and is also so huge relative to the earth.

Still haven't got to grips with the 'tilt' of the earth conundrum yet though.

Chris

 

Offline Quantumcat

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #16 on: 08/05/2003 23:18:43 »
Again, unless someone can tell us otherwise, it's just the way the earth happened to be formed ^_^
 

Offline Exodus

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #17 on: 07/07/2004 02:10:43 »
BTT
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #18 on: 24/03/2005 12:59:19 »
"That now makes sense. I did not realise that the day was the same length as the year. That is a bizarre scenario - I wonder how that came about - anyone know ?"

It is called tidal locking... because the moon is near the earth the part closest to us is being pulled harder than the part further away (inverse square law) this will tend to pull the moon into an ovoid shape and is the same reason we have tides on the earth. Now when it was formed the moon was spinning far faster than it is now, this bulge would always point towards the earth, so if you sat on the surface you would move up and down a couple of metres every revolution.

Now squashing a fair sized moon every day uses up a lot of energy, and it must come from somewhere,  and if you think about the direction of the forces (I really need a diagram) it will come from the rotation of the moon. So the rotation will slow down gently until it isn't moving (there are a couple of extra effects due to solidification that will acually stop it rotating).

In Jupiter's moons this can generate so much heat that even a small moon like Io has enough energy to have active volcanism on it's surface.

In a similar way the tides are slowing down the rotation of the earth, but much more slowly as the earth has more angular momentum, and the moon's gravity is weaker. It is however a noticible effect, and there are 200 million year old corals that lay down a layer of growth a day, that have 400 day rings a year.

  Dave

ps The tilt conundrum could be to do with the formation of the earth and moon, which was supposed to have been when something the size of mars hit the earth, throwing off lots of debris into orbit to form the moon. If it hit slightly off centre you could quite easily end up with a tilt.

The tilt does change a bit with time in one of the Milankovitch cycles (http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~geol445/hyperglac/time1/milankov.htm), but not very much 21-24.5 degrees.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #19 on: 15/04/2005 17:49:47 »
Exodus

And Here is another answer

The Proceedings of The Gravity Of Life

mass = gravity = mass.

In pure space, beyond the influence of planets, "if at all possible",
objects exist unaffected by the restriction of friction and unaffected by
motion.
The atomic particles and their components have a pushing /repelling and
pulling/attracting force, which maintains the components in an orbit,
preventing them from becoming a solid mass.

As is the case with magnets, the atomic particles should therefore always
link together at opposite polarities.
If two particles met in space at exactly the same force, they should link
together and become one. Not so! The two become one but remain separate
items. They link together and cancel out the pushing force, yet retain the
pulling force and in doing so marginally increase the pulling force.
However, the statement that the pushing force is cancelled is incorrect,
more the effects of motion in the pushing force are cancelled by the
opposing force. Resulting in no net movement of the two particles, which
remain in orbit around each other due to the weak forces involved.
Because the pulling force of the two atomic particles has been increased by
the addition of 1, more particles are attracted, each time a particle joins
the group, it adds its own forces to the pulling force and the pushing
force, resulting in no net movement. However, there is nothing to stop
particles entering the group at an angle. = Net result, rotation. As
rotation increases it becomes more likely that more particles will hit the
target at an angle. Therefore increasing the rotation of the group in one
direction, adding centrifugal forces to the group, which counter the
attraction of the group around the equatorial line, a bit like a spinning
wet ball repels water at the centre and like the observed ring around
Saturn.
Eventually, the group's collective pushing force will add sufficient weight
to the mass and cause the particles to form a rotating solid. This would
then be the birth of a planet.
As the mass increases at an ever accelerating rate, all be it a painfully
slow process, it draws in more particles until its combined attractive force
is such that it is able to attract bigger particles further accelerating its
inevitable growth.
The alignment of all of the particles becomes affected by the centrifugal
force, adding collective order to its forces and favourably affecting its
continued rotation.
The surface of the ever-expanding mass would be stable, as little to no
disturbance would be present, as is the case on smaller planets that are
unaffected to any degree by larger planets. I mentioned this so that you
avoid comparing orbiting moons that are stripped of their material by larger
planets.
When critical mass is achieved, the collective gravitational effect begins
to convert joining particles into material, which can exist under the
influence of the magnitude of mass.  This conversion may be proved to be
responsible for Aurora Borealis.
At some point in mass the gravitational pull of the planet must convert
particles into hydrogen and oxygen, as we know it, also adding the
components of airborne particles to the mass.
Eventually the gravitational pull of the planet becomes such that it must
convert the airborne particles of hydrogen and oxygen into water. It should
therefore be possible to calculate the size of a planet and the existence of
water. Ironically, NASA should be really looking to visit a planet of
comparable mass to that of the Earth in order to find waters.
Remember, the pushing force cannot be cancelled out and the net result of
all of this pushing is friction, "amplified" by the pressure and properties
of the relatively new planets developing oceans as more and more Hydrogen
and oxygen is converted into water and falls as rain.
Water always finds the lowest part and the weight of the water concentrates
the pressure, ensuring that any depression in the planets surface is
exploited. This collective weight of the water presses the surface of the
planet down and the oceans inevitably become deeper. Try throwing some water
on dry sand.
It is worth while considering where airborne material will fall on a
centrifuged object, this explains why snow is stored at the North and South
poles on Earth.
The pressure from the ever expanding water, forces the land up, exactly like
a truck wheel forces mud up either side of the pressure point.
But there is a serious price to pay for friction at the centre of the
planet. Rock begins to melt and magma forms, insulated by the planet crust,
until it erupts from the surface-giving rise to the development of
volcanoes.
The magma, being less dense than the compressed material at the core of the
planet, is ejected. A simple flow and return system. The development of
volcanoes and the activity of volcanoes on Earth will therefore continue to
become more apparent as the planet continues to grow. Which should be a big
concern for cities built in defective areas!
Evidence for the expanding planet is obvious by the shifting plates and
separating continents.
Furthermore, if you want to retrieve history, you usually find yourself
digging for fossils and artefacts.
So the bigger the planet the hotter it becomes. The centrifugal force
increases around the equatorial line preventing debris from entering around
its belt, leaving a visible ring as observed with Saturn. It should
therefore be observed to affect more volcanic activity close to the equator.
However, the Sun and the Moon bring about additional forces to the planets
surface and when a total eclipse occurs close to the equator, the collective
combined pull of the two planets eases the Earth's surface pressure and
causes it to distort.
(I actually predicted the earthquake activity which followed the last
Eclipse, and have witnesses! But no one ever listens do they?)
The additional disturbance at the core, caused by the external forces of the
eclipse, continues to generate additional friction and the likelihood of
volcanoes and earthquakes increase in the wake of the eclipse.
The rotation of the Earth, together with the energy from the Sun, causes the
oceans to circulate.
A simple flow and return system is also responsible for this
Brilliant Film, produced by a genius: After The Warming, presented By James
Burke. Maryland Public Television and Film Australia. 1990.

In 1989 research had been undertaken into the way the ocean currents work.
The group of scientists had discovered that the Gulf Stream is driven by a
combination of evaporation, salt concentration and gravitational pull.
The Gulf Stream, flowing on the surface, warming up as it comes through the
tropics, North up the Atlantic. Around Iceland The winds evaporate a lot of
the water so the water gets saltier. Now salty waters heavier so it sinks.
Five billion gallons a second, down to the bottom of the Atlantic. Then it
flows South an under water river 20 times bigger than all the rivers in the
world. Then East and then North up the Pacific, where it hits the continents
and comes back up to the surface, eventually coming back down through the
tropics, heating up as it goes, to become the warm Gulf Stream again. The
North Atlantic , where evaporation makes the water so salty that it sinks,
is what drives the whole thing, by using gravity in order to propel the
solutions. No tubes yet a clear indication of the magnitude of power
generated from a simple none living force.
But say that salty water didn't sink. There'd be no more warm Gulf Stream
pulled up to fill the gap, caused by the downward flowing, heavy salt water.
And with no more warm Gulf Stream, the temperature in the north would
plummet, so the ice caps would expand, with world wide consequences. Just
like it did 10,000 odd years ago. But for the Gulf Stream not to sink it
would have had to become less salty, and what on earth could do something on
that kind of scale?
A giant prehistoric lake in Canada, Lake Agassiz, B.730 BC. Held back by an
ice wall that melted as the planet warmed up after the ice age. Billions of
tons of fresh lake water suddenly flowed down the Saint Lawrence River into
the Atlantic, making thousands of square miles of ocean-surface Gulf Stream
water too fresh to sink, stopping the entire ocean circulation. Which in
turn prevented the Warm Gulf Stream from coming North, so a massive drop in
temperature and expansion of the polar caps world-wide. That was the key to
everything. Change the saltiness of the Atlantic and you change the world's
weather.
All of the additional matter thrown into the atmosphere from volcanoes,
provides the planets surface with new and alien materials and these combine
with water to generate independent flow and return circulation, giving rise
to the animation of once lifeless material, but that's another avenue we
should avoid. It is not relevant to your questions and would complicate this
thread beyond belief, and forms part of my unpublished book, titled "The
Gravity Of Life". I must avoid complications for the time being and hope you
will excuse me.
The whole of life on Earth pales into insignificance, when it is realised
that we are on a one way ticket to Armageddon! It hit me like a tonne of
bricks.
The Earth must keep growing for it is the order and nature of every planet
to either evolve into a sun or become part of a planet which evolves into a
sun. My best guess at when this will happen is that the oceans will
eventually meet with the magma and the reaction would be an almighty
ignition of everything we know. Evidence for this is the sheer volume of
stars on a clear night and the variety of states of each and every planet in
our solar system.
Context taken from: The Gravity of Life. by Andrew K Fletcher, Devon, United
Kingdom


Death is natures way of telling us to slow down.
 

Offline Exodus

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #20 on: 19/04/2005 10:54:58 »
quote:
Originally posted by chris

That now makes sense. I did not realise that the day was the same length as the year. That is a bizarre scenario - I wonder how that came about - anyone know ?

As Exodus pointed out earlier, the moon is supposed to have formed following the collision of the earth with a mars-sized planet, ejecting huge amounts of crust material into orbit around the earth. This material coalesced to form the moon, hence explaining why the moon is composed predominantly of 'crust' with very little 'core', and is also so huge relative to the earth.

Still haven't got to grips with the 'tilt' of the earth conundrum yet though.

Chris





the tilt would not have anything to do with the Earth being more oval as opposed to a complete circle would it?
 

Offline niko

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #21 on: 25/10/2005 20:00:55 »
the reason that there is no water on venus is it is closer to the sun and to think if you where to put water in a pot and turn your burners all the way up the water won't be able to stay in the pot for long it evaporates now think the pot is venus and the water is the waterand the heat from the the burners is the sun. if there was water on venus it would be there for long and the only way water could get on venus is if billions of gallons where dumped on to the planet. there is your answer :)
 

Offline niko

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Re: Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #22 on: 25/10/2005 20:08:03 »
you wanted to know why the earth tilt's the earth is all ways spining now if we were to take a pool ball and spin it, it will show that the ball dosn't tilt in fact it tilts alot and because it's spining we can't control it. the only way we would be able to stop the tilt is to stop the world from spining
 

Offline dkv

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Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #23 on: 29/09/2007 07:36:36 »
Venus never belonged to this solar system. It was captured from outside space.
Therefore it has some different properties.
I expect it will have radically different soil compositions as well.
 

Offline Ophiolite

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Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #24 on: 01/10/2007 12:02:53 »
Venus never belonged to this solar system.
Can you provide even a scintilla of evidence to suppor this bizarre claim?
It was captured from outside space.
From outside space? Hmm. That must be quite far away I imagine. ::)
Therefore it has some different properties.
Strange then, that its properties are in line with what we would expect if Venus formed from the assemblage of largely chondritic material in the accretion disc of the proto-sun.
I expect it will have radically different soil compositions as well.
It seems highly unlike it has any soil. Soil contains a significant number of living organisms and an amount of decomposing organic matter. I rather doubt there is such on the surface Venus. It will have regolith. We have seen and sampled this. No surprises there then.
 

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Why water on Earth and not Venus?
« Reply #24 on: 01/10/2007 12:02:53 »

 

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