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Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« on: 26/06/2008 21:50:34 »
Hi,


If there is no beginning to the universe, how the heck did we arrive at this moment in time?. .

Think of a race between athletes with no start line going back to infinity. They would never pass he impatient hopeful spectators

The arrow of time would not move from past to future as it would always be pushed back to infinite eternity

Alan


 

Offline Soul Surfer

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #1 on: 26/06/2008 23:55:19 »
There seems clearly to have been a beginning to our universe but that does not mean that our universe did not form from something that was there before our universe formed. In fact I consider it to be highly likely that our universe formed from something that was in existence before it.

Bits of our universe that cut themselves off and essentially go their own way are black holes and we understand quite a bit about them but cannot physically investicate inside of them.  It seems highly likely that black holes are essentially new universes spawned by our universe and again it seems highly likely that our universe was formed as a black hole in some other universe.

Remember from the inside a black hole is of indefinate dimensions a bit like a tardis

This means that the whole of space time is an evolving fractal structure of indefinate dimensions (I prefer that to the mathematical infinite because it can easily lead to absurdities) in space and time and is essentially static as a complex whole but dynamic locally as universes start evolve and die.
« Last Edit: 27/06/2008 00:00:01 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline LeeE

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #2 on: 27/06/2008 01:26:17 »
Methinks thou do'st presume too much SS - BH's have some similarities with some hypothetical pre-BB states, in terms of the apparent breakdown of laws, but at the same time they exist within our universe and are therefore, a part of it.

I'm afraid I've got to object to describing space-time as a fractal structure too - The term 'fractal' directly comes from 'fractured' or 'broken' when referring to the number of dimensions that are required to describe them i.e. fractional dimension, and the observation that a finite area can have an infinite boundary - re the Mandlebrot set where, if the number the number of interations is infinite, the boundary is of infinite length but the area defined by the boundary will always lie within a 2x2 area.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #3 on: 27/06/2008 07:21:51 »
Well how's this for a wild hypothesis.

In the Big Rip theory not only does the rate of expansion of the universe continue to increase, but the rate of acceleration of expansion also increases. Eventually the outward pressure of the vacuum energy will cause even the basic building blocks of matter to fall apart. Vacuum energy will overwhelm every other force.

Now, what if vacuum energy originates outside of our known universe and is leaking in? The more that leaks in, the easier it is for yet more to leak in and so on. The known forces in our universe are currently not cutting it too much slack. But when the Big Rip occurs, the vacuum energy will be far and away the dominant force.

At that point there will not be enough resistance from the normal forces to hold it back any longer and vacuum energy will rush in faster than ever.

So, what if a weak spot appears in the fabric of our universe? Energy from outside of our universe could burst in explosively, causing a massive local increase in pressure & temperature. Sound familiar? Could that be what the Big Bang was?

Or what if there is, in fact, a finite limit to our universe. Maybe our dimensions are bounded by branes that determine their size. As more vacuum energy leaks in, its pressure will increase. It could reach the point where increased pressure will raise the temperature enough to cause a localised hotspot and BANG! Here we go again. Another matter universe expands into the vacuum energy universe.

All we know is that the universe we know & love is expanding. We don't know if there is a finite limit to it. It may be that there is, but after trillions upon trillions of years of expansion we wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever finding out. There would be nothing beyond the limits of the matter created by the last Big Bang except vacuum energy & degenerate (or whatever the word is) particles.

I've only just thought of this and haven't yet thought the idea through properly so please be gentle with me.  [:I]
« Last Edit: 27/06/2008 07:26:58 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #4 on: 27/06/2008 09:32:32 »
I agree that I am taking things a good deal beyond the normal reach of accepted theory but I am not proposing anything that goes against accepted models, just covering some bits that have been glossed over in the name of simplicity and spectacular effect.  Talking about singularities and the mysteries of quantum gravity gets you attention talking about items collapsing in an environment in which angular momentum must be conserved is complex messy and very difficult to analyse.

My fractal I mean self similar.  Whatever scale you look, the universe will look pretty much the same as long as you look at a large enough chunk for long enough.
It is a sort of new continuous creation theory in which our universe begins evolves and eventually fades out but in the process creates many more universes (probably inside black holes)as a natural process of its evolution through its time.

Some of the reasons i Think that this should be taken seriously are

As you cross the event horizon of a black hole space becomes time like and time space like.  You could view an event horizon as space collapsing to become a single strand of complex time and time expanding to become thee dimensions of space.

Our basic familiar four dimensional space time structure has just turned itself inside out to become what is essentially the same thing.  What we see as inflation is just the explosive expansion of the time dimensions to become space as the space dimensions collapse to become complex time. 

The maths of this stuff should be related by hypercomplex calculus and provide enough complex dimensions to satisfy the string theorists although my maths is not currently good enough to analyse it yet.

There are many similar relationships in the maths of specific parts of this that we are very familiar with.

Consider the relationship between time and bandwidth in electronics linked through Fourier transforms and the well known uncertainty principle.  As the bandwidth becomes bigger so the time for a cycle becomes shorter.  The more intense the gravity the slower time moves and eventually stops as it becomes space and the smaller space becomes it contracts into "strings"  Look at my description of the real collapse of blackholes elsewhere in these pages

look also at my evolutionary cosmology stuff in new theories.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #5 on: 29/06/2008 10:05:00 »
Guys,

While I am sure the universe had a beginning and know the jury is still out if it will end.

What I call the greater reality simple "Existence" could not have had a beginning or can end.

Alan
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #6 on: 29/06/2008 20:53:12 »
Guys,

While I am sure the universe had a beginning and know the jury is still out if it will end.

What I call the greater reality simple "Existence" could not have had a beginning or can end.

Alan

 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #7 on: 30/06/2008 07:41:09 »
OK doc scatch your head,

Did existence only come into being at the big bang if it is fact.Sort of out of nowhere and nothing or is the universe infinite?

Alan
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #8 on: 30/06/2008 08:28:08 »
Or does universe = existence
 

blakestyger

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #9 on: 30/06/2008 12:23:56 »
While I am sure the universe had a beginning...

Such confidence - so how is it that why, if the Universe had a beginning, it waited an infinite time before it began?
This was a question originally put by Immanuel Kant (1724-1804); we seem no nearer to answering it now than then.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #10 on: 30/06/2008 13:11:14 »
Blake

Read the original post again!


Quote
If there is no beginning to the universe, how the heck did we arrive at this moment in time?. .

Think of a race between athletes with no start line going back to infinity. They would never pass he impatient hopeful spectators

The arrow of time would not move from past to future as it would always be pushed back to infinite eternity

Alan

Your quote
Quote
Such confidence - so how is it that why, if the Universe had a beginning, it waited an infinite time before it began?
This was a question originally put by Immanuel Kant (1724-1804); we seem no nearer to answering it now than then

These "was no time" before the big bang. time, space, energy matter, fundamental constances or laws all came into being at that moment. The universe did not explode into an empty void the void or space was created also at this moment

The universe according to much cleverer people than me and the majority of physicists/scientist have now almost reached consensus that our universe began at the creation moment we call the "Big Bang" a phase coined by Fred Hoyle whow believed in a static steady state universe.

Have we not moved closer to the answer since Kant? What about the Micro Wave Background .

I repeat in an infinite eternal universe, with no beginning how can the arrow of time ever move as it would always be pushed back into an infinite "PAST" eternity? Time can not exist in an infinite eternal universe. (anyway this is what this puny mortal believes) I am not unteachable you know with better contrary evidence or proof I will change my mind.

Alan
« Last Edit: 30/06/2008 13:27:58 by Alan McDougall »
 

blakestyger

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #11 on: 30/06/2008 17:33:26 »
I mean it in the nicest possible way but I do find it extraordinary that you can be so categorical about what happened at the putative beginning of the Universe.

Cosmology is a relatively recent science that unfortunately suffers from there being little opportunity for experiment so it's all done by observation and theory - either can follow the other.

I don't think Stephen Hawking would stick his neck out quite as far as you have on this. Perhaps it would be pertinent to recognise the infancy of these ideas and wait for a bit more verification.

 :)
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #12 on: 01/07/2008 08:01:17 »
Blake,

Quote
I don't think Stephen Hawking would stick his neck out quite as far as you have on this. Perhaps it would be pertinent to recognise the infancy of these ideas and wait for a bit more verification

I don't have the time to wait can see the horizon of my life, so must we just abandon persuing the truth and leave it to those that come after us.

As for me no, as long as I breath I will continue to think
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #13 on: 01/07/2008 09:38:41 »
I agree Blake, too many people readily accept what can only be hypothesis given the size of the problem, as factual and build upon these ideas as if they are solid foundations in science. If we were targeting a distant planet of may billions of light years and deviated from accuracy in the slightest. We might find our observations ending up focusing in a completely different part of  space than where we believe we aimed our apparatus and given that the earth is orbiting and rotating it is unlikely that we are able to aim with any degree of accuracy over such a vast distance and the same applies to adding the term theory to these hypothesis, because no one can be certain of these statements and probably never will have sufficient evidence to support them.

Yet people are willing to stake their own credibility on what can only be interpreted as incredible and defend it with a strange certainty that defies logic.

I think it may be more a case of how we write things rather than how we think them through that the problems lie in. We can become tired of writing maybe, not understood, baffled, insufficient evidence, improbable, unlikely etc, and in doing so convince the next generation of scientists to take what was written before as factual rather than asking them to re-examine the evidence and see if it agrees with new findings.

While I am sure the universe had a beginning...

Such confidence - so how is it that why, if the Universe had a beginning, it waited an infinite time before it began?
This was a question originally put by Immanuel Kant (1724-1804); we seem no nearer to answering it now than then.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #14 on: 01/07/2008 10:08:45 »
Well I remember Einstein saying the incomprehensible thing about man is that he can comprehend the incomprehensibly vastness of the universe .

Of course he also stated he only knew two things that were infinite, The human stupidity and the universe and that he was only sure about the latter.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #15 on: 01/07/2008 10:17:29 »
And both of you have not answered my question, How could the flow of time, move from past, present and future in a universe that had no beginning. Time could never start the start line is pushed back into eternal infinity is this type of universe.
« Last Edit: 01/07/2008 10:19:37 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #16 on: 01/07/2008 10:28:14 »
Blake,

Quote
I don't think Stephen Hawking would stick his neck out quite as far as you have on this. Perhaps it would be pertinent to recognise the infancy of these ideas and wait for a bit more verification
.

I have read what I can on Hawking, he is a great intellect but no more than Fred Hoyle and if you know so much about him you would know he stuck his neck out many times and abandoned dead ends. He at first thought the big bang was a good idea and then Left this concept and went on a tangent just like all other great, cosmologists / physicists/ mathematicians before him.

I do not reverence this remarkable man any more than I do, John Van Newman. Richard Feyman etc etc  , and lastly he is not in the intellect league of Einstein or Newton. History might forget him, what would be his legacy?



If men of this stature can stick out there necks why cant little me learn from them and stick my puny neck out a little also.??

I will not stop thinking until I die.
« Last Edit: 01/07/2008 10:44:07 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #17 on: 01/07/2008 13:58:49 »
We arrived at this moment in time because we put a time on it not the Universe.

If the Universe and time are both infinite then the constraints placed upon their timescales are human constraints not universal constraints. Being part of the universe does not qualify us as being correct about it.

So time moving past the present time on earth is supposed to make a difference in an infinite Universe? Time for us is not relevant on the grand scale of things. The life and eventual death of a star even is insignificant in Universal timescales, yet they all share our perception of time but only as long as we are here to observe it.

Say the entire life of a star represents a billionth of a billionth of a second on a Universal Timescale. We could not measure this. So we would presume a lower figure that is in our own comfort zone. Our estimates of the age of the universe are based on assumptions not facts.
 
 

blakestyger

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #18 on: 01/07/2008 17:24:04 »
Blake

It's nice to be called by name but this isn't it. I'm not Blake Styger but blakestyger after the bewildered looking tiger that Wm Blake drew at the end of his poem The Tyger (Tyger, tyger burning bright/In the middle of the night etc..). My real name is Roger.

 ;D
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #19 on: 01/07/2008 18:25:37 »
We shorten names so everyone knows who we are refering to it just makes typing a little easier sorry.-..---. Roger over and out :)
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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There must have been a beginning
« Reply #20 on: 02/07/2008 01:29:30 »
AKF,

Quote
We arrived at this moment in time because we put a time on it not the Universe
.

Now we are getting somewhere, time is an illusion of the human mind. It is just something we use to calculate movement?

 

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