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Author Topic: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C  (Read 13932 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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Another thought experiment,

The task is to send a message to a planet 100 light years from earth and another 200 light from earth. They are separated from each other by 300 light years. They must receive the message at exactly the same moment and perform an identical action to save the universe from destruction. The light speed constant of 300 000 kilometers applies. They both are at the same level of civilization and the task is to get a person from each planet to shine a torch at the sky at the exact same moment to avoid the catastrophic end of the universe.

The task is to get beings on these planets 300 light years apart to flash a laser beam at the exact same moment in time. Then send a laser beam towards a nearby energy source some 3 light years from the planet 200 light years from earth...


Assume they are aware of each other due to astronomy and often have observed each other through their respective telescopes. Of course, I do not mean they could each see the others laser light flash. Just that as they look thought their telescope they know the other was performing the exact same action at the exact same time to save the universe. Their knowing would seem to have overcome the information barrier.

 
Thus, we would have appeared to short circut the barrier of information restriction to light speed relative to one another. They would know exactly what the other party was doing at the exact same moment, although separated by 300 light years.


This would create a knowledge transfer of the others action at the exact same moment apparently overcoming the information barrier,

When we transmit the message to each planet the universe has only 205 years left before destruction and the only option we have on earth is to get the extremely remote planets to do our will.

Alan


« Last Edit: 02/07/2008 01:23:24 by Alan McDougall »


 

Offline ukmicky

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Quote
Assume they are aware of each other due to astronomy and often have observed each other through their respective telescopes. Of course, I do not mean they could each see the others laser light flash. Just that as they look thought their telescope they know the other was performing the exact same action at the exact same time to save the universe. Their knowing would seem to have overcome the information barrier.



But i dont get it, how can they could both perform the same action at the same time and have knowledge of it when it would take 300 years for them to view any action either planet took.

Also time is relative so none of the parties would have identical time measurements. And how does what you have explained caused the exchange of information faster than the speed of light.

Quote
Can we overcome the light speed information transfer barrier?
No
« Last Edit: 27/06/2008 22:19:49 by ukmicky »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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I'm with Mucky on this 1.
 

Offline JP

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Alan,

I don't know your reasoning for saying why we've overcome the light speed information barrier in this case?  Is it because when we see the universe hasn't been destroyed, we instantly know the other planet performed the same action?  If so, the problem is that any destruction mechanism in the universe is also constrained to move at light speed.  So we won't know for 300 years whether the other planet obeyed our request or not.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Hi,
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But i don't get it, how can they could both perform the same action at the same time and have knowledge of it when it would take 300 years for them to view any action either planet took

They don't view what the other is doing, but they know what the other is doing at the exact same moment in time, although they are separated by 300 light years. There is no transfer of information between them just knowledge or information from earth. They each only receive information from us on earth. The light speed barrier is uneffected.

Think again!

The thought experiment is true!
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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What?? I don't see how the light speed barrier is overcome at all. You said yourself there is no transfer of information.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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What?? I don't see how the light speed barrier is overcome at all. You said yourself there is no transfer of information
.

Of course the light barrier can not be overcome, but just by adjusting when the messages are sent from earth we can inform both planets at the same moment what we want them to do.

Bring this little exercise down to earth level during the sailing ship epoc. The task is to get someone in London and another person located in Sydney to perform the same act at the exact same GMT. It takes 100 days to travel from Capetown to London and 200 days to get to Sydney. So we send our message toward Sydney and wait hundred days and then send the message toward London. London and Sydney are separated by 300 days!!

Thus they receive the same message at the exact same time, even though the fastest mode of information transfer is by Sailing ship.

London and Sydney although 300 days apart know what the other is doing at the exact same moment. Knowledge is shared between the two cities , but not direct information like a letter.

The sialing ship speed contraint is not broken, just like the light barrier is not in my little easy mind game.
« Last Edit: 28/06/2008 06:52:02 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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But they don't know, they assume. For all London or Capetown knows, Sydney could have been wiped off the planet before the ship arrived, leaving no one left to perform the act.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Madidus,



Quote
But they don't know, they assume. For all London or Capetown knows, Sydney could have been wiped off the planet before the ship arrived, leaving no one left to perform the act

You are correct, but Capetown (Earth) will know due to the fact (planets original scenario) as they will see the universe begin to destruct, due to inactivity on the part of the remote planets
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Madidus,



Quote
But they don't know, they assume. For all London or Capetown knows, Sydney could have been wiped off the planet before the ship arrived, leaving no one left to perform the act

You are correct, but Capetown (Earth) will know due to the fact (planets original scenario) as they will see the universe begin to destruct, due to inactivity on the part of the remote planets


Not until the light from the event has reached them.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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In addition after 203 years in the original experiment when the universe continues on as before, without going into destruction mode, all three planets will no longer have to assume anything, they will know in time that that the message was successful or a failure.

The nearer planet would have to wait 153 years and the further planet 53 years to assures themselves of the success of the time experiment. The problem is not really a problem at all, it is just all about sequencing and synchronising time within the constrains of the time information/barriers.

I forgot to add that the supposed end of the universe would start with our own sun, so we on earth would know the experiment failed 203 years and 8 minutes after sending the messages. If it was successful we would be able to breath again say 203 years and 10 minutes as we would know by then our sun is safe.

Madidus you said.

Quote
Not until the light from the event has reached them


Forgetting to add that it is our star that is going to go supernova and cause the end of the universe is an unforgivable oversight very sorry.



I forgot to add that the supposed end of the universe would start with our own sun, so we on earth would know the experiment failed 203 years and 8 minutes after sending the messages.If it were successful we would be able to breath again say 203 years and 10 minutes as we would know by then our sun is safe.


One could use this concept in a different way.

Little silly I know, but maybe also a little bit of fun.

A simple problem set up in a complex way to confuse. Not that I think you guys were confused but try it out on the average guy who knows little about vast distances or astronomy and they nearly always back off stating it is beyond their comprehension

Regards

Alan
« Last Edit: 28/06/2008 15:49:51 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Its just deductive reasoning, not information transfer
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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To restate the task!

Th
Quote
e task is to send a message to a planet 100 light years from earth and another 200 light from earth. They are separated from each other by 300 light years. They must receive the message at exactly the same moment and perform an identical action to save the universe from destruction. The light speed constant of 300 000 kilometers applies.

The message is first sent to the futher planet 200 light years from earth, and we wait 100 years exactly and then only send the next message to the nearer planet 100 light years from earth. So they receive the messge at the exact same time and become aware of each other and what each are meant to do.

We do this to get them both to act in concert and synchronise the action we want them both to do, although they are separated by 300 light years. The message includes everything they must both do, such as being aware of the others action and the fact that earth/universe will destruct if they do not perform exactly as asked by earth.

Planet 200 light years and planet 100n years from earth performs their actions as planned and both have to wait to see if they have prevented earth from going supernova and saving the universe. This awarenes of the others actions at the exact same moment is information transfer not just deduction as you suggest.

We on earth 200 light years distant from the futher planet know after 200 years that the message experiment was successful, the sun does not explode.

The other two planets will have to wait 100 and 200 light years or years to watch and observe if earth goes nova or not.

If this is not information transfer and do not know what is.

To dismiss the whole thought experiment  as deductive reasoning is somewhat unkind.

Alan[/color]
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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It's not an awareness of the others actions though, they would be assuming the others actions. Like I said before the whole planet could be gone before the message arrives, Earth or the other planet does not know that the other planet is synchronising their effort, they hope.

Quote
The other two planets will have to wait 100 and 200 light years or years to watch and observe if earth goes nova or not.

If this is not information transfer and do not know what is.

Yes, that is information transfer, but is obviously not faster than light.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Awareness faster than light and time is not contrained by light so the whole universe will carry on the  moment in time the test proves successful or the whole universe will begin to begin to destruct is they do not obey.

Earth will know that moment and the others will have to wait for light to tell them Earths sun has gone nova.

You are absolutely correct as far as present knowledge goes there is no way around the light speed barrier.

But could there not be a sort GMT for the universe UMT,

and due to different mass of world clocks adjusted minutely for slower or faster time on each particular world
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Whether the far planet decides to do it or not, if they sent a signal to the other planets instantly saying yes or no, they would know of its intentions just as fast or faster than they would otherwise be able to figure out through deductive reasoning anyway.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Madidus,

A little off topic I have two brothers in AUSIE, one in Sydney the other in Brisbane,

 
Quote
Whether the far planet decides to do it or not, if they sent a signal to the other planets instantly saying yes or no, they would know of its intentions just as fast or faster than they would otherwise be able to figure out through deductive reasoning anyway.

I dont get your point.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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For the original thought experiment to be valid you have to have a method of instantaneously "destroying" the universe at all places simultaneously.  Such a process is impossible.

THe thought experiment is therefore an invalid thought experiment.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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SS 

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For the original thought experiment to be valid you have to have a method of instantaneously "destroying" the universe at all places simultaneously.  Such a process is impossible.

The thought experiment is therefore an invalid thought experiment.

According to you it is invalid not me.I never stated that the whole universe would end in one moment. But how can you say it is impossible. There might be realities outside your understanding.

I also said the so-called destruction would start with earths sun going supernova.

How about a thought where you ride on a beam of light. Would this also be invalid. Well Einstein "thought" this impossible invalid thought experiment and it resulted in the theory of relativity. E=MC(2)



 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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This is how i'm visualising the scenario. Is this what you mean or not
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Madidus,

That picture sums it up "A picture paints a thousand words'

Thank you. Can you teach this old guys how you do this via pm

Earth in the middle first sends message to planet C 200 light years away. Then earth waits 100 years and sends exact message to planet A . So both receive message at the exact same moment. The message contains a lot of detailed info, including the fact that both who are now "synchronised" in time, know they must perform the same action at the exact same moment.

Thus although separated 300 light years they know what the other is doing as the message has resulted in them working in concert, harmony and synchronised. Awareness not info accross 300c

Assuming the universe could do the impossible and destroy itself in one huge implosion. All three planets would know or not know the success or failure of the urgent message in one blinding flash, 203 years and 8 minutes after the first message to planet A.

Planet C has lazered the correct source. We knew on earth planet B, that the our universe or our sun would go nova or destruct after 203 light years and 8 minutes.

In the detailed message planet A is also instructed to carry out an act, say also blasting some energy source also 3 light ears from it. It is important that earth planet has send both messages at the exact precise time.it is beyond vital that both planet A and C must act in the same moment!!

So we on earth would know 203 years or years and 8 minutes after sending the first message to C, that we are going to live or die.

Planet C will of course also have to wait 203 years and 8 minutes to see if the carried out the actions correctly.

Planet A would can observe earth B knowing C was 300 light years away from C them and deduct that they would not know until

203 years and 8 minutes have past, if there was success or failure.

So what has all this painful apparently convoluted thought experiment achieved?

1) Although separated by unbelievable distance the earth/universe has been saved within the contrains of light the
barrier

2) Planets A and C although separated by 300 light years knew what the other at the exact same moment

3) Astronomers on earth who found out (somehow) that the earth/universe would destruct in 203 years and 9 minutes unless planet A and C performed what the message requested exactly.

The vigilance of earths astronomers has saved A, B C and indeed the universe.

If you guys were faced with the same problem , how would you go about solving it

Regards

Alan

 
« Last Edit: 30/06/2008 20:28:25 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline JP

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Assuming the universe could do the impossible and destroy itself in one huge implosion. All three planets would know or not know the success or failure of the urgent message in one blinding flash, 203 years and 8 minutes after the first message to planet A.

But the universe can't do the impossible, so the Earth will have to wait approximately 200 light years to find out of things went off according to plan. 

I think your point is that we can "synchronize" two different planets with us.  This is true, but we can only assume everything worked out how it was supposed to.  We won't know until we actually get information, which happens at the speed of light.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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jpet,


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I think your point is that we can "synchronize" two different planets with us.  This is true, but we can only assume everything worked out how it was supposed to.  We won't know until we actually get information, which happens at the speed of light

There are no assumptions,they now they have to wait 203 years 8/9 minutes then they will know the success of failure. They have to assume nothing, each planet must wait the 203+ years 

Earths astronomers "knew" in advance that there was only 203 years 8 minuted left by some as yet unknown means. So they sent the urgent message "the moment" they calculated the time left before earths sun goes nova, if no action were taken by sending said messages to A and C.:---

The descendants of the eminent earths Astronomers would be waiting anxiously observing the sun 203 years and from  10 minutes after the previous astronomers warning. If the sun just went on as normal the experiment was successful or maybe not. They had to get these remote worlds to act in unison at the exact moment.

Of course the other two planets would also have to wait 203 years and 8/9 minutes to see if their obedience saved reality. or not.

So by some foresight they save our sun or universe



What I am trying to convey , yes we can not send information faster than light speed. But there might be a universal mean time , just like GMT. Time is not confined to the speed of light is it?

Syngronising clocks on world remote from each other is not impossible
 

Offline JP

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What I am trying to convey , yes we can not send information faster than light speed. But there might be a universal mean time , just like GMT. Time is not confined to the speed of light is it?

Syngronising clocks on world remote from each other is not impossible

Even thinking of a "speed of time" is a major misconception.  In addition, there can't be a universally "correct" time since clocks end up measuring time differently when they're moving.  Finally, since space and time are all bound up, you can't even really specify what it would mean for those two planets to send their signals out simultaneously:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Just accepting for the moment that the concept is a valid thought experiment To what precision do you wish the two events to be synchronised?
 

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