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Author Topic: Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C  (Read 13929 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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Just accepting for the moment that the concept is a valid thought experiment To what precision do you wish the two events to be synchronised?

Within say one relative hour.

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Even thinking of a "speed of time" is a major misconception.  In addition, there can't be a universally "correct" time since clocks end up measuring time differently when they're moving.  Finally, since space and time are all bound up, you can't even really specify what it would mean for those two planets to send their signals out simultaneously:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity .

Dear Wik , how knowledgeable they are. Time moves differently on planets of different masses. so we take in my thought experiment the flow of time when floating free in space and then adjust our local clocks accordingly. To my proposed UMT.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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OK the timing is not all that critical and the orbital velocities of the planets are not a critical factor the earth's orbit would only change at the timing by about 15 minutes but you still need to know the relative distance and relative velocities of the stars around which the planets are orbiting.  The relative velocities can measured quite accurately using Doppler but the relative distances can only be determined accurately enough by using and timing a round trip signal which will require two way communication between the distant planets and the earth adding considerably to the time needed to set up the simultaneous action.

however I don't see quite what you are getting on about because nothing about what you have already suggested implies any communication faster than light.
« Last Edit: 01/07/2008 09:20:37 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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hpwever I don't see quite what you are getting on about because nothing about what you hasve already suggested implies any communication faster than light

While we cannot exceed light C we can send an urgent message by  Radio and use the fundamental constance to get remote planets to react in the same moment as we want at the very same universal mean time. Of course if there is a UMT.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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You may be getting precisely timed actions happening between two places that could not have communicated but it is you who are instigating the actions and not either of the two places that could not have communicated.

Effects like this are often seen in astronomy and seem to show things actually moving faster than light.

Consider the bright pulse of light moving away from a supernova this creates a shell of light lasting for a few weeks into space. This may hit a large and approximately flat sheet of dust and gas a few light years away from the supernova(probably the gas and dust shell expanding from a supernova that happened many millions of years earlier)  first we see the supernova and a few years later we see the bright light from the supernova reach the sheet of dust and gas and cause it to brighten for a short period and this expands into a ring as the shell of light passes through it .  This ring can appear to be expanding faster than the velocity of light because it is only the shell of light brightening up areas of cloud and gas simultaneously and nothing is really moving except the light.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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SS

I am aware of the supernova dus gass cloud phenonomen.

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You may be getting precisely timed actions happening between two places that could not have communicated but it is you who are instigating the actions and not either of the two places that could not have communicated

Again you are correct the two planets do not communicate but but I have made them "aware" exactly what the other was doing at the exact same moment althoufgh they are separated by 300 light years. A sort of "knowledge" across 300 light years if you like.

Remember the message is comprehensive giving each planet detailed information about the other,
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Again you are correct the two planets do not communicate but but I have made them "aware" exactly what the other was doing at the exact same moment althoufgh they are separated by 300 light years. A sort of "knowledge" across 300 light years if you like.

This is what you keep saying, and we keep trying to explain. Planets A and C are not in any way aware of what any other planet is doing by the time they get the message. They can speculate on the probability of what is happening on the other planets, make the educated opinion that they are probably synchronising their effort along with them, but 100/200 years is a long time. Anything could have happened to the other planets by the time either planet recieves the message. A planet could have been wiped out by an asteriod, a plague could have killed its population, civil war, etc. leaving no one to perform the hypothetical act. All they are aware of is the state of the situation from the time the message was sent.

Also, if you were to invoke the scenario that the universe is destroyed instantly apon failure to act in sync, therefore each planet can know the far planet did the laser thing as soon as they realise the universe still exists, then this too is not faster than light knowledge, because for all they know the other planet could have failed in the task and an alien spaceship could have come to the rescue. So they don't know the other planet must have succeeded, they reason that this is what most likely happened, but they cannot know as a fact what happened until more communications are recieved from the other planets. 

And aliens or not the only reason the "knowledge" would travel faster than light in this scenario is because the universe itself was going to end instantly, you're getting around light speed by deducing what happened seemingly faster than light because the destructive force of the universe was instantaneous and therefore faster than light.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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And i just used MS paint, here's a tutorial. http://www.lkwdpl.org/classes/mspaint/paint.html

Btw, the Earth would probably have to have been towed a few more light minutes away from the Sun or it would be consumed when the sun expanded into its red giant phase.
 

Offline JP

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Even thinking of a "speed of time" is a major misconception.  In addition, there can't be a universally "correct" time since clocks end up measuring time differently when they're moving.  Finally, since space and time are all bound up, you can't even really specify what it would mean for those two planets to send their signals out simultaneously:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity .

Dear Wik , how knowledgeable they are. Time moves differently on planets of different masses. so we take in my thought experiment the flow of time when floating free in space and then adjust our local clocks accordingly. To my proposed UMT.

That link has nothing to do with masses of planets.  You can't have a "UMT," because you can't define what it means to be "at rest" in the universe. 
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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RE your post at 09:51b you have not given the panets upto date information by the time the most distant of them receives the information your information about them is (by your scale) 400 years out of date and they cannot know if the other planiet is responding to your instructions.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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This is what you keep saying, and we keep trying to explain. Planets A and C are not in any way aware of what any other planet is doing by the time they get the message. They can speculate on the probability of what is happening on the other planets, make the educated opinion that they are probably synchronising their effort along with them, but 100/200 years is a long time.

It is of course true that at the moment they receive the message they can only hope and speculate that the other has got the message. Those that come after them (their great great  grandchildren) must wait the 203 years and 8 minutes and at that precisely timed moment each planet A, B and C will "know" what the message asked them to do was, success or failure. They will simultaneously "know" this at the very same "moment" although separated by the vast spans of the universe, that the outcome of the experiment. 200+ years is a very short time in cosmological terms

There was a time frame in which they had to work simultaneously and the planets not the message receivers "will know" this at the specific precise moment (203 ys 8+ Mn)later.

We do not overcome C we work around it in the time we have left. An act of of great timing that is all.

I have worded this thread incorrect and will modify it now

I sense A little frustration but I really understand your informed point of view
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
« Reply #35 on: 02/07/2008 08:18:47 »
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Those that come after them (their great great  grandchildren) must wait the 203 years and 8 minutes and at that precisely timed moment each planet A, B and C will "know" what the message asked them to do was, success or failure. They will simultaneously "know" this at the very same "moment" although separated by the vast spans of the universe, that the outcome of the experiment.

No, they can assume the outcome of the experiment. Like I was saying, for all planet C knows planet A could have failed in the task and aliens came to the rescue instead. Or the acts of B and C were enough to save them without A after all. Or doomsday just didn't happen at all as they had predicted. They won't know for sure exactly what transpired on the other planets until they recieve a communication from them.

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200+ years is a very short time in cosmological terms

I meant in human terms, its alot of time for a planet to enter into a world war and wipe themselves out, etc.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
« Reply #36 on: 02/07/2008 09:20:37 »
M_S,
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Or the acts of B and C were enough to save them without A after all. Or doomsday just didn't happen at all as they had predicted. They won't know for sure exactly what transpired on the other planets until they recieve a communication from them.


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200+ years is a very short time in cosmological terms

I meant in human terms, its alot of time for a planet to enter  into a world war and wipe themselves out, etc.

Think about this. on earth we have a GMT so we can set all our  time peaces exactly down to the atomic clock precision in all the cities I mentioned earlier. Cape Town = B London= C and Sydney =A

At this early stage of information they have no idea what the other cities are doing except that their time peaces are synchronised. (foreget for now London Town is burning)

It we have clocks that are accurate and precisely set in all three cities we have achieved some sort of combined knowledge and deduct what we want them to do in he body of the detailed message.

I see universal time as an illusion time to, me anyway. is more like tiny frames on the huge movie reel that is the universes history. What I am proposing it that these frames exist simultaneously across the universe and maybe, just maybe they could be put side by side.

 200+ years is indeed  a long time in human terms, but we have the same dilemma as my decidedly vague time experiment, with the looming global warming. If it does not bring disaster in our life time it will in our children or great grandchildren time. We therefore must and can send them a message across the ages to warn them to act and not make the same mistake we have by rampand consumeration of the earth limited resources.

Regards I appreciate your thoughtful inputs to the topic
« Last Edit: 02/07/2008 10:23:18 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #37 on: 02/07/2008 09:57:40 »
Sure, we can synchronise our measurement of time with them roughly but we can't communicate with them or recieve any information about them faster than light.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #38 on: 02/07/2008 10:36:34 »
Madidus,

 

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Sure, we can synchronise our measurement of time with them roughly but we can't communicate with them or recieve any information about them faster than light

Going back o the three city earth scenario, disaster Will happen or not happen at the exact same moment all over the earth, The whole world might explode in one colossal flash.

I propose that there might be a Universal Mean "Moment" somewhat the same as GMT. or a "GM Moment" Time is an illusion of the human Psyche there only ever changing "moments of nows"

Remember a love song what a beautiful "Moment" A moment with your lover condenses 12 hours of real time into one glorious moment, subjective time An awful moment such as waiting in long boring Queue  for say a doctors negative report will stretch out to an subjective etrnity,. Both are real one a fleeting moment , the other an eternity to exaggerate somewhat

This is off topic but the point is does time travel , does it have a speed, is it entangled somehow with the light constant C is there no universal moment?????
« Last Edit: 02/07/2008 10:44:23 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
« Reply #39 on: 02/07/2008 14:13:10 »
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I propose that there might be a Universal Mean "Moment" somewhat the same as GMT. or a "GM Moment" Time is an illusion of the human Psyche there only ever changing "moments of nows"

If time is just an illusion of the human psyche then why does an atomic clock at the top of a water tower run slower than one at the bottom?

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Remember a love song what a beautiful "Moment" A moment with your lover condenses 12 hours of real time into one glorious moment, subjective time An awful moment such as waiting in long boring Queue  for say a doctors negative report will stretch out to an subjective etrnity,. Both are real one a fleeting moment , the other an eternity to exaggerate somewhat

This is just our own psychological perception of time, if you compared the watches afterwards of someone who had been waiting in a queue against someone having a good time with their parter they would still show the same time, regardless of how each person personally perceived the flow of time.

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This is off topic but the point is does time travel , does it have a speed, is it entangled somehow with the light constant C is there no universal moment?????

Time is relative to each observer, read up on the works of a bloke called Albert Einstein.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #40 on: 03/07/2008 01:33:50 »

What about the very reall possiblity of somehow using
quantum entaglement to send iinformation huge astromomical distanced instantly? It is within the realm of possibilty.
Usually when physicists talk about nonlocality in quantum mechanics, they’re referring to the fact that two particles can have immediate effects on each other, even when separated by large distances. Einstein famously called the phenomena “spooky interaction at a distance” because information about a particle seems to be traveling faster than the speed of light, violating the laws of causality/information transfer

The phenomenon of nonlocality arises from the `quantum entanglement` between quantum objects that have formerly interacted--even though astronomically large distances may separate these objects. This phenomenon has now been demonstrated
Alan

 Article By David G. Yurth, PhD  (no copy right)

Non-locality and quantum entanglement are neither delicate nor rare events. Quantum non-locality is not rare and does not disappear. The Universe operates according to the principles of complementarity at all scales - Kafatos and Nadeau established the particulars of this verity with extraordinary adroitness in their watershed book "The Conscious Universe." The concept of non-locality as an implicate attribute of the material world is borne out by three pieces of impeccably documented science which are only now becoming generally known. Nicolas Gisin and his colleagues at CERN proved that Bell's predictions regarding non-locality were precisely correct.

The positron-electron pairs they separated with a Potassium Niobate crystal and shunted through 15 kilometers of fiber optic cable, automatically re-oriented spin and polarity instantaneously to maintain net-spin values of zero when one of the particle-pair was accelerated through an electromagnetic field, to seven decimal points, in repeated trials.

The effective rate at which the information transfer occurred between the particles is calculated to be at least 10 to the nine times faster than the speed of light. Second, Vladimir Poponin has demonstrated in his work with the DNA Phantom Effect that every molecule of DNA exerts a non-local field effect on the material locale surrounding it, which persists for up to 30 days after the DNA molecule source has been removed.

The importance of Poponin's work is that it proves unequivocally that among living organisms, non-locality operates simultaneously with chemo-synaptic neuronal processes at all scales and in all living things.

Finally, Donald Eigler's work at IBM's Almaden Lab's proves that non-local holographic field effects operate in all things as an intrinsic attribute of matter at atomic and sub-atomic scales, regardless of whether the materials are organic or not. In "The Non-Local Universe,"

Kafatos has simply opened the lid to this Pandora's box by providing an epistemological model which is carefully thought out, clearly articulated and reasonably constructed. His model is absolutely right on the mark and deserves to be read by anyone who is willing to look at this aggregation of unimpeachable evidence with clear scientific detachment.

 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #41 on: 03/07/2008 08:49:15 »
I don't really know a whole lot about quantum entanglement but I thought communication was impossible through it because although both entangled atoms react at the same time, there's no way to control the action, and someone trying to recieve a signal would not be able to tell the difference between a random normal action, or an action induced by the far signaller.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
« Reply #42 on: 03/07/2008 09:53:25 »
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I don't really know a whole lot about quantum entanglement but I thought communication was impossible through it because although both entangled atoms react at the same time, there's no way to control the action, and someone trying to recieve a signal would not be able to tell the difference between a random normal action, or an action induced by the far signaller
.



Well although the "how"? of instantaneous transfer via the quantum entanglement route  is still a far off possibility it is a real scientific quest, just like the development of the quantum computer, which they already got to factorize the number 15.

Not very impressive, but what is impressive it does the calculation instantaneously unlike the present mode of computerization by the transistor chip.

Quantum information transfer is therefore, not an impossible as it has already being demonstrated by utilizing albeit on a minute scale of the within the constraints of really really early prototype quantum computer.

I have often thought about subjective time and what I call the "Great Observer platform of time" (please I am not going the god route here).

This great observer platform" might exist in another reality, who knows!

Something such as all events happening in a great city your beautiful Sydney from the objective view of a perfect telescope in space. The telescope(my great observer platform) would be able to take in all these multiple activities as one great moment. And this is already being done by googol earth to a lesser degree.

Could the "telescope" not be an analogy of my great observer platform whereby our whole universe might be observed from the great observer platform, viewing the whole universe moment by moment, instead of what we call linear time.

If we could source this hypothetical great observer platform, we might be able to know what the whole universe was doing in any moment in time.

Alan
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #43 on: 04/07/2008 08:54:16 »
How long is a moment?
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #44 on: 04/07/2008 10:10:53 »

Madidus the subject of Time is unimaginably complex and thus the reason for our continues dialogue and unseen spectaters. Thank you for your thoughtful contrabutions to this very deep subject

So to continue on the byways and highways of the rivers of thought.

 What Time - Is It?

Time, what is it? Actually, time is just a concept connecting matter, space and motion together. The word Time represents the changing relative positions, directions, and relative velocities of matter within space.

The rate of relative position change is called velocity. There can be no absolute velocity for any single piece of matter; velocity only has meaning when measured against at least one other piece of matter. T

he same is true for direction and time. There can be no absolute direction for any single piece of matter. There can be no absolute time. It is the change in relative positions, directions, and velocities of matter that we call “TIME”.

Absolute Time could exist outside the constraints of our universe from the perspective of my hypothetic "Geat Observer Platform"

PROOF

Try this simple thought experiment. Imagine if all relative motion stopped even down to the electrons within their orbits. What we call “Time” also would stop. The hands on the clock of course stop moving at the position they were in when the freeze took place. One can easily see that without the relative motions of matter time has no meaning.

This is because fundamentally it is relative motion that we are describing when we use the term “Time”. This is one simple proof of what “Time” is. Time does not exist as a separate entity. Time is only a conceptual tool used to relate the complex, changing, positions, directions, and velocities of matter to other pieces of matter in space.

I mentioned this idea of mine in another thread called "Nothing is absolute everything is relative and subjective"


SPACE

Space without matter/energy is dimensionless and cannot be described. Without matter to compare to other matter/energy, distance is meaningless. An example of this is when we measure distance. The devices we use to measure distance all simply compare at least two pieces of matter in some way. We really do not physically measure the empty space in between.

If all relative motion stopped a three-axis, coordinate system could easily locate every piece of matter within space. Matter is moving about so a fourth dimension is needed to describe the change in relative positions of any moving objects within space. This fourth dimension is what we have been calling TIME.

We have been using this concept of time for so long that it has become part of our thinking. This has blinded many and has caused some to think of time as an entity within itself. It is not. It is merely an expedient way to express (and think) about the very complex relative motions of matter through space. The word Time represents the changing relative positions, directions, and relative velocities of matter within space.

NOW

When someone asks, “What is the time?” you might think you could be smart and say “Now”. You would of course be wrong. Even as you were saying the word, relative motions of unimaginable complexity has occurred. Even the hands on the clock moved ever so slightly.

The Cesium atomic clock in Boulder Colorado vibrates 9,192,631,770 times each second . You may have realized by “Now” that “Now” cannot even exist! No matter how small the increment, some relative motion of matter has occurred somewhere in the Universe.

Now is a nice concept but has no absolute meaning take midnight the moment you think it has arrived it is gone into the future.


THE PAST

If we think about the past, thoughts are conjured up about some mysterious time gone by. The reality is that we are referring to a set of relative locations of all of the pieces of matter in the Universe. Time travel into the “past” would require that all of the intricate pieces of matter in the Universe be returned to the "older" original relative positions, directions, and velocities that existed at that point.. Is the past is a real Humpty Dumpy!


THE FUTURE

The future simply is a reference to the relative positions, directions, and velocities of all the matter in the Universe at some step that has not occurred yet but will. In theory if a giant computer could first know and then calculate where each particle of matter was and its relative directional velocity to all other pieces of matter, the future would be predictable. A backward calculation could also be done to reconstruct a vision of what things were like before. After all, the future is just a description of the relative positions, directions, and velocities of everything at a particular step.


distances are only the relation of space to time and vary with that relation.”
Marcel Proust
 
We all use the word time just about every day. We talk about how much time we have left for the math period to end or how many hours a week we work or the time remaining till the start of our favourite television programme. Nevertheless, do we really know what time is when put into perspective with the laws that govern the rest of the universe? We often hear the phrase space and time but we dismiss it as the language of scientists, often wondering what the two have to do with each other, since the layman's perception of space is only what he saw in the last Star Wars movie.

What we do not realize is that the two are inextricably linked, and, more importantly, they are both integral to the world in which we live. In fact, they are the physical building blocks that make up our existence, the habitat in which all things dwell and have dwelt for eternity. We will now begin to examine exactly how the two make up our world and why they are so inseparable, and how time plays a large part in the proper physical functioning of our universe.


Time is what allows us not only to measure the duration of events but also to determine when events in space occurred in relation to other events in space.

This requires the establishment of a universal timescale that can be used to compare the events, the determination of which depends on precise mathematical calculations derived from astronomical observations. Just as events can occur at different points in space at the same point in time, they can also occur at different points in time at the same point in space (how many times have my parents told me that they used to do exactly the same things as I do now, only thirty years ago). This brings us to realize that they must in some way be related.
       

The fact is that we live in a dimensional universe, the fabric of which is given the term ‘space-time.’ We are familiar with the three dimensions of space (length, breadth and height), and indeed with that of time, except that we never think of time as just being another dimension to our universe, basically because it is difficult, in fact, just about impossible, to imagine a dimensional universe. Indeed, it is often difficult to imagine three-dimensional space, especially where school math is involved.

We often give points in space a discernible position by giving them three coordinates to establish their distance in all three dimensions relative to other points in space. It is almost like giving somebody the directions to your house by referring to various landmarks that the person may be familiar with.

However, in order to establish the exact position of events in space-time, the only difference is that we must specify four coordinates for the event (three for space and one for time). Although the dimension theory is now widely accepted as a definition of time, there are some that continue to oppose it.


From a philosophical viewpoint, time is more bewildering than space. Does it flow through our lives or do we flow through an endless sea of time? But this too is difficult to understand. There have been questions such as how many seconds of time flow in one second, suggesting that the rate of flow of time is taken as relative to something else, a sort of hyper time, which in turn, to flow, would require a hyper-hyper time and so on indefinitely.

Do future events occur as the present approaches them, or are they already there in a different time than that in which we live? How is it that we seem to have an internal clock that often wakes us up when the alarm does not ring?


These are questions that are difficult to answer, and bear testament to the fascination that man has had with time ever since the beginning of, well…time. The German philosopher Immanuel Kant said that space and time were phenomenally real (part of the world as described by science) but nominally unreal (not a part of the unknowable world of things in themselves).

The burden of time on the shoulders of a man haunts him as it sweeps him closer to his death, and so it is likely that man will continue to try to find out more about this phenomenon, which he has still not quite understood

So here is a continuation of that complex reality from a different angle.

Time is one of the world's deepest mysteries.  No one can say exactly what it is.  Yet, the ability to measure time is what makes our way of life possible.  Most human activities involve groups of people acting together in the same place at the same time.  People could not do this if they did not all measure time in the same way


We sometimes say “Where” something is.  Even where is meaningless without other pieces of matter to relate the location. Imagine being in a Universe that is empty except for you. “Where” would not be meaningful without other pieces of matter to reference against. There is no absolute “Where”.



Age is another word that really means change. The word age has been used so broadly that it has taken on an independent character. There is no absolute age. Age should refer to the change in the relative positions, directions, and velocities of the particles that make up the object under discussion.


You have heard that one thing can age faster than another. People, wine, etc. This is just a common example of the perverted use of a concept. What people are really referring to are different "relative" amounts of change. A sharper more disciplined use of such terms should be required for scientific thinking. We have let our words limit our thoughts and our vision, almost to blindness.

The past, the future, now, and where cannot exist in an independent form, but the do from different subjective relativity's

Time represents the changing relative positions, directions, and relative velocities of matter within space   

Time is what allows us not only to measure the duration of events but also to determine when events in space occurred in relation to other events in space. This requires the establishment of a universal timescale that can be used to compare the events, the determination of which depends on precise mathematical calculations derived from astronomical observations.

Just as events can occur at different points in space at the same point in time, they can also occur at different points in time at the same point in space (how many times have my parents told me that they used to do exactly the same things as I do now, only thirty years ago). This brings us to realize that they must in some way be related.

And so on ad infinitum!

Alan

 

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Tranfer of information across the universe but constained by C
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