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Author Topic: Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?  (Read 42307 times)

Peter Barker

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Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?
« on: 10/07/2008 22:14:15 »
Peter Barker asked the Naked Scientists:

Do you wince at the fundamentalist Christians who estimate that the Earth is around 3,000 to 6,000 years old and dismiss carbon dating? Further, do you, like me, lead a good moral life without the belief in an imaginary higher being in 'heaven'? Yes, I am an a-theist, just as I am an a-fairyist. Does your knowledge of science also make you non-believers ?

What do you think?


 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?
« Reply #1 on: 10/07/2008 22:30:05 »
I am certainly not a believer in intelligent design. I do have religious beliefs, but they are not in conflict with science.
 

blakestyger

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Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?
« Reply #2 on: 12/07/2008 19:02:24 »
There is a very good article in this week's New Scientist about getting religion into US science classes and what seems to cause most annoyance is the way that ID proponents have "taken a cherished feature of science and turned it on its head to promote a non-rational agenda". It's on p.8 Class Conflict.
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #3 on: 27/07/2008 23:01:52 »
I find intelligent design to be quite dishonest - rather than just saying "I choose to reject the scientific explanation of how species form and change over time, and instead believe the christian doctrine of creation" it seeks to distort science to fit a set of religious assumptions.

I don't mind if people chose to believe the bible instead of reason and science, that's up to them.  However, I feel that once you do this, you opt out of discussion on the science of evolution and speciation.  I'm not sure how people can choose to reject logic and science on this topic, but continue to work within other scientific fields, but I accept that this is a personal issue that each individual has to deal with.

I am deeply offended, however, by the intelligent design movement seeking to censor evolution in schools, or worse, to insist that it is taught alongside evolution in science lessons.  I feel that all the creation myths should be taught in religious education lessons, as they are key to understanding different cultures.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #4 on: 28/07/2008 10:31:43 »
I think it would be really funny if, one day, it was proven that an alien prankster dictated the Bible  :D

Well, I've seen it "proven" that spaceships and aliens are referred to in the Bible.
 

Offline opus

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« Reply #5 on: 30/07/2008 22:51:37 »
Worryingly some book companies, who have a reputation for producing good quality science resources, are adding intelligent design workbooks to their available lists. Surely, they shoud be offered alongside religious theory books, not science...?  Wadyathink?
 

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« Reply #6 on: 30/07/2008 23:52:20 »
Worryingly some book companies, who have a reputation for producing good quality science resources, are adding intelligent design workbooks to their available lists. Surely, they shoud be offered alongside religious theory books, not science...?  Wadyathink?

I agree. There is no science whatsoever in ID.
 

Offline opus

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« Reply #7 on: 31/07/2008 15:11:38 »
In a an advertised sample page, they were suggesting that descriptions of ancient animals in the bible were in fact descriptions of dinosaurs!!!!!!!!!! The book was intended for primary school pupils- how outrageous is that  ......?
 

Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #8 on: 31/07/2008 17:25:43 »
I will never believe in Intelligent design as it's all because of some schools and certain court cases in the States.

But we've evolved from fish, monkeys to early humans to the modern world that we live in Now. With all of its problems.
 

Offline opus

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« Reply #9 on: 01/08/2008 14:49:31 »
When teaching, I used to regularly say how things were 'designed' in nature for instance- I  wince myself if I say  that now, in case it sounds like I believe in intelligent design!
 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #10 on: 02/08/2008 00:40:59 »
The politics have obscured the science. Behe's case is absolutely watertight despite evolutionist blathering.

Has any of you ever read the book, or are you simply taking up positions for less worthy reasons?
 

Offline atrox

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« Reply #11 on: 02/08/2008 01:12:09 »
lol...I read some very convincing articles and homepages and arguments of creationists... they convinced me, that I will never believe in ID.

My favourite: http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/ ;D

I really love the "Thale of transition from water to land"... better than any good-night-thale!

Iīm always wondering if lungfish, mudskipper and eels never read the "Why Transition From Water to Land
is Impossible"-part.
Maybe someone should tell them, that they will die within the next few Seconds, when they leave water..

Why does the eel not know, that its impossible for him, to cover the distance between two habitats, spending hours out of water without a propper sceletton or the right muscles?
Why does the Mudskipper not know, that he will dry up immediately, when spending more time out of water (like all the amphibias do, which should have the same skin-problem as described).
Why does the lungfish not know, that he wasnīt allowed to suddenly (all evolutionists know, that the fish ages ago jumped suddenly out of the water and started climbing the trees, eh?!...Thats what evolution ist all about, isnīt it??) develop these organs for breathing which gave him his name?
Why the hell do some fish die, when you prevent them from taking the chance to breath air (Anabantoidei, Corydoradinae).

Maybe someone should go out an tell them, that they donīt exist... there are no transitional forms...nooo! :-X
 


 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #12 on: 02/08/2008 19:25:49 »
I followed your link, atrox, and came on this:
"Mathematicians looking for answer to this question (why bees construct hexagonal cells) reached an interesting conclusion: "A hexagon is the most appropriate geometric form for the maximum use of a given area."

A hexagonal cell requires the minimum amount of wax for construction while it stores the maximum amount of honey. So the bee uses the most appropriate form possible."

Now a bee has a brain the size of a pinhead, and I doubt very much if there are too many bees out there with mathematical degrees.

How did they figure out the extreme intelligence-requiring fact that a hexagon would be the ideal mathematical structure for the storage of their honey?  It also requires the minimum amount of wax, I gather.

If there's no intelligence at the back of it, how did they come up with the design?

Cheers
Asyncritus
« Last Edit: 02/08/2008 19:29:36 by Asyncritus »
 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #13 on: 02/08/2008 19:33:30 »
In a an advertised sample page, they were suggesting that descriptions of ancient animals in the bible were in fact descriptions of dinosaurs!!!!!!!!!! The book was intended for primary school pupils- how outrageous is that  ......?
No more outrageous than my hearing a 7 year-old telling her mother in the pharmacy that 'you know the  reptiles became birds, mum'. There's been some serious brain washing there!
 

paul.fr

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Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?
« Reply #14 on: 02/08/2008 19:57:08 »
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0UjqdLG5RNg

that is all you need to know.
 

Offline atrox

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« Reply #15 on: 02/08/2008 21:42:40 »
Oh wow, Asyncritus... did you even read what I wrote?

You know what the problem whith ID is? That most of the arguments are either just a lie/not true (as the example with the fish) or meaningless because they wont prove a theory to be wrong (as argueing, that evolution was an instrument of the nazis... even if so, thats just no argument in science...btw, Iīm still waiting for the acurate quotation, where they got the idea from, that Darwin himself was a racist...he never said anything like that) or because it fits with the theory of evolution as well.... as your example with the bees (btw. thats not the only argument you would base your opinion on, is it?  :o )
If this is the best form to fit honey in, then it is also the form, where the chance to survive is the biggest... just as simple as that.

You know, what the real problem with ID is?
I would never go out there and say, people who believe in god or an intelligent designer or whatever they want to are brainwashed, stupid...whatever.  ... as long as they wonīt do exactly that with people believing in the theorie (oh yes, it is a theorie, not the ultimate truth...we know that...do you creationist know that too?) of evolution  *yeah, thats me for example*... and trying to demonstrate that trough arguments without rhyme or reason. Sorry, but I really wonder who is the brainwashed then... I repeat: didnīt you read the thing with the fish? What do you say about that argument?

cu
aj
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #16 on: 02/08/2008 22:53:59 »
Asyncritus, I think you've missed the point.  The bees that produced hexagonal cells were the most successful, as they were getting the maximum gain from the minimum use of wax.  Therefore, they were more likely to breed than the other bees. This is how natural selection works.

No intelligence required.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #17 on: 03/08/2008 18:12:09 »
Asyncritus, I think you've missed the point.  The bees that produced hexagonal cells were the most successful, as they were getting the maximum gain from the minimum use of wax.  Therefore, they were more likely to breed than the other bees. This is how natural selection works.

No intelligence required.

You couldn't have figured that out by yourself, Ben - I know I couldn't. Because I wouldn't know how to make honey, certainly not how to make wax without an organic chemistry lab, and without a mathematics degree I wouldn't be able to figure the hexagon bit out.

How do you see it happening? There are all these bees, each trying out different shapes some square, some round etc etc.

The hexagonal ones are the best, so all the others turn up their toes and die out.

That sound likely to you?
 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #18 on: 03/08/2008 18:18:25 »
Quote from: atrox
lol...I read some very convincing articles and homepages and arguments of creationists... they convinced me, that I will never believe in ID.

My favourite: http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/ grin

I went and read that, and found the bees point on there. It was your reference that I was checking.

Now do stick to the point, and answer my question. How did the bees figure out that the hexagonal shape, in 3-dimensions yet, was the most economical for the purpose?

There are other related points, like how did they figure out how to make honey, wax,and then get it into their genes to pass the info on to their progeny?
 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #19 on: 03/08/2008 18:22:49 »
 

Offline atrox

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« Reply #20 on: 03/08/2008 19:07:44 »
Lol...


Well, I donīt know how to make Honey myself...but Iīm sure a bee wouldnīt know how to go fishing... ::)

Well yes, you went through the reference, which is ok.
But you completely ignore all things that wonīt fit, right ^^

Once again: whats your opinion on these nice arguments with the fish for example?
I told you my evolutionary opinion on how bees evolved this form.
But I can get more specific if you want to:

Lets imagine there are two colonies of bees at one place... both have nearly the same size of their hives. But one colony uses round cells, where they cant use the whole space propperly, the other uses hexagonal cells and so they can stash a lot more honey in their hive.
Both colonies are ok with their amount of honey.. all is fine, as long as all the ecological terms stay the same.

But then, there comes the winter and the colonies have to stay in their hives for a long time. No problem at all...they have the honey to survive.
But maybe(e) this winter is longer than the other ones, food is getting short. What do you think, which colony has the best chance to survive, to reproduce in next spring, to spread?

Noone ever said, that the bees with round cells just go dieing because there bees which are a bit better adapted...thats where creationist allway try to mock evolutionist...but no evolutionist would ever use the word suddently.. and no, the other ones did not just die because they felt outbided...they died because when the terms changed, the other ones maybe where more patient.

Thats just no argument to prove the theorie of evolution wrong... give me a better one... you didnīt just base your view of the world on bees I guess...
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #21 on: 03/08/2008 22:43:33 »
Asyncritus, I'm afraid that rather than posting evidence against evolution, you're merely throwing light on your own lack of understanding of evolution.  There are a number of very good books that will explain it for you.  Failing that, why not try thinking of these sorts of issues without the initial assumption that everything was designed by some alien intelligence?  You will find that evolution is beautiful, natural, logical and wonderful.

I think that the simplicity of evolution, the sheer beauty of the process and it's results is far better than any god figure could ever be.  As someone else has said on this forum, and I am inclined to agree - lets look at the beauty of the garden without trying to see the fairies at the bottom.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #22 on: 04/08/2008 07:40:07 »
Asyncritus, I'm afraid that rather than posting evidence against evolution, you're merely throwing light on your own lack of understanding of evolution.  There are a number of very good books that will explain it for you.  Failing that, why not try thinking of these sorts of issues without the initial assumption that everything was designed by some alien intelligence?  You will find that evolution is beautiful, natural, logical and wonderful.

I think that the simplicity of evolution, the sheer beauty of the process and it's results is far better than any god figure could ever be.  As someone else has said on this forum, and I am inclined to agree - lets look at the beauty of the garden without trying to see the fairies at the bottom.

Isn't that marvellous! Here's a serious criticism of evolution, and all you can say is 'I don't understand it'! I didn't post evidence against evolution - atrox did, so don't blame me. I'm just asking what seems to be a set of sensible questions based on his facts.

I have read a fair number of books on the subject, including Origin, and I hold an honours degree in a biological science.

I am asking what seems to be a simple and logical question given the facts he raised in his reference.

How did the bees figure out how to do this marvellous thing?

Simple isn't it?

Let's look at the garden and think a bit about the bees that pollinate the flowers - and that raises another host of questions, which we won't go in to until we get some sensible answers to this one.

Atrox brought the subject up, and I'm simply asking the questions any sensible biologist would ask.

Now stop berating me, and focus on the question.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2008 07:55:57 by Asyncritus »
 

Offline Asyncritus

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« Reply #23 on: 04/08/2008 07:48:15 »
Lol...


Well, I donīt know how to make Honey myself...but Iīm sure a bee wouldnīt know how to go fishing... ::)

Well yes, you went through the reference, which is ok.
But you completely ignore all things that wonīt fit, right ^^

Once again: whats your opinion on these nice arguments with the fish for example?
I told you my evolutionary opinion on how bees evolved this form.
But I can get more specific if you want to:

Lets imagine there are two colonies of bees at one place... both have nearly the same size of their hives. But one colony uses round cells, where they cant use the whole space propperly, the other uses hexagonal cells and so they can stash a lot more honey in their hive.
Both colonies are ok with their amount of honey.. all is fine, as long as all the ecological terms stay the same.

But then, there comes the winter and the colonies have to stay in their hives for a long time. No problem at all...they have the honey to survive.
But maybe(e) this winter is longer than the other ones, food is getting short. What do you think, which colony has the best chance to survive, to reproduce in next spring, to spread?

Noone ever said, that the bees with round cells just go dieing because there bees which are a bit better adapted...thats where creationist allway try to mock evolutionist...but no evolutionist would ever use the word suddently.. and no, the other ones did not just die because they felt outbided...they died because when the terms changed, the other ones maybe where more patient.

Thats just no argument to prove the theorie of evolution wrong... give me a better one... you didnīt just base your view of the world on bees I guess...

There's no mockery here. Somebody said 'natural selection did all this' I'm saying that if there WAS  a selective process, then it must have selected from some alternatives. That's the meaning of 'select'.

So what alternatives are there? Circle triangle ....

Since all bees and other insects that build nests and make honey use this hexagonal formation, then how did it arise? How did making honey arise? How did manufacturing wax arise? How did bees figure out that flowers had nectar? And pollen? And that they could use them in making honey? After all it isn't just a simple solution of sugar in water. It's a very complex chemical substance with some wonderful properties.

And it's prepared in a most remarkable way.

As I said, I don't think I could have figured all that out by myself, and then somehow stuck the info in my genes. I'm pretty sure the bees couldn't either. So who or what did?
« Last Edit: 04/08/2008 07:57:43 by Asyncritus »
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #24 on: 04/08/2008 08:45:45 »
I'll be honest with you, I don't know the biochemistry involved -  if I get chance, I'll look it up.

For now - Wax - a great many insects produce wax as a protective coating - humans produce a waxy substance (in the ear) as to many other animals.  So the genetic precursor for producing wax is definitely there.  It only takes a small mutation to produce lots of it, and if this produced an advantage (keeping larvae safe, food storage, better protection from predators) it would be selected for.  So that's the wax angle covered.

As atrox has already explained, it's not that animals 'work it out' and then evolve.  The animals with specific mutations that lead to advantageous behaviour are more likely to breed, and so these mutations will become more prominant in the population.

If you actually understood evolution, you wouldn't need to ask for the specific details.

Feel free to bring up your questions about the flowers.


Edit - In fact, you have a point.  We should stop berating you.  Please could you explain fully your understanding of evolution, so we can see where the root of our disagreements stems from.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2008 08:48:43 by BenV »
 

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