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Author Topic: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?  (Read 3503 times)

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #50 on: 30/08/2015 22:26:49 »
Informed skepticism is the essence of the scientific method. 

Whenever I encounter someone trying to sell a concept as a sure thing, I remember the second Durand vs. Leonard match.  Durand had beaten Leonard so badly that all my friends urged me to bet big on Durand to "make a fortune". I, however, remembered the wise teaching of my Uncle Bodie that, "Nobody ever made a dime on a sure thing yet."

When Durand took two punches in the 1st round, then raised his hands and cried, "¡ No mas ! ¡No mas !", I knew that Uncle Bodie had saved me from ruin once again.

How very, very British to hear these people assuring me of the absolute truth of this "smug white man's bedtime story" as if it had been handed down by the archangel Gabriel - not some "genetic psychologist"

To paraphrase Rutherford there is real science and then there is genetic psychology and stamp collecting.

When I was growing up I heard Fred Hoyle assuring the world that the universe was steady-state with typical British fervor. Just like the fervor of you people - but you have far less hard evidence. Is that not so?

Once upon a time in Britain, who one's parents were greatly determined your school scores and, thus, your station in life.

Yeah, Riiiight.


alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #51 on: 31/08/2015 00:23:34 »

Once upon a time in Britain, who one's parents were greatly determined your school scores and, thus, your station in life.


Still pretty much the case, as everywhere else, but now we know that there is a genetic as well as an environmental component. It's embarrassing for the government because you can't tax genes (not that the wealthy pay inheritance taxes anyway: they are a sop to the Left and a worry to the middle classes). 

And in Britain we don't hide behind a pretence of democracy or meritocracy: instead of rigged presidential "elections" where one candidate's brother counts the votes, we just have a hereditary monarch and an unelected president in Downing Street.

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #52 on: 31/08/2015 00:56:00 »
Behold, the dreamer cometh.

It is NOT the case that everywhere else is similar to class-ridden British life. America is - and always has been - a refuge for people who couldn't stomach the sort of society that generates (and celebrates) insufferable British boors like Jeremy Clarkson.

In America, many unfair things have taken place. HOWEVER, Until recently -- as some gullible people have come to admire Britain for things like Princess Diana or the Beatles - we don't applaud or embrace them (as you seem to) as the proper and natural way of conducting affairs.


This thread has been quite illuminating to me.

I have always been struck by the paradox that Thomas More - the enlightened English author of "Utopia" - had repeatedly condemned people to hideous torture for things like wanting to read the Bible in English.

I am grateful, therefore, to have witnessed these examples of contemporary English reasoning. It throws much light on the Thomas More paradox.

« Last Edit: 31/08/2015 01:27:44 by Pecos_Bill »

Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #53 on: 31/08/2015 09:54:55 »
Caveat Lector:  Never discuss an issue of science which concerns something that has wide coverage in the Daily Mail with a certain type of Englishman.

Here is a story on today's Daily Mail online  front page, "A flooded office, plummeting temperatures and documents mysteriously moving: Terrified workers fear that ghost of an old lady is haunting them after 'face' appears at the window".

What should you do if you accidentally encounter a Daily Mail reader in conversation? In the old days people once used a topical mixture of sulfur and petroleum jelly for relief. Nowadays one might use a Lindane shampoo. One can also get good prevention by using outer clothing impregnated with Pyrethins.

So, once again you stick to not actually answering the point, but choose to attack the medium - not even the medium through which it was delivered- but one that subsequently took an interest.

I take you that you are unable to attack the science itself because you realise it's factually correct, no matter how distasteful that may be.

Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #54 on: 31/08/2015 10:05:14 »
Informed skepticism is the essence of the scientific method. 

How very, very British to hear these people assuring me of the absolute truth of this "smug white man's bedtime story" as if it had been handed down by the archangel Gabriel - not some "genetic psychologist"

It is indeed true that "Informed scepticism is the essence of the scientific method. " and the key word there is "informed"
Since you have already made it clear that you don't understand the bassi of this research your views don't count as "informed" in any useful way.

The conclusion isn't handed down from Gabriel- it came out of an examination of the data.

So far you have shown that
1 you don't understand how they used that data and
2 you are unable to actually show any problems in their method.

All you have done is string together a bunch of  strawmen and racist nonsense about "smug white men".

You seem to have become the thing you despise.


alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #55 on: 31/08/2015 12:34:15 »

It is NOT the case that everywhere else is similar to class-ridden British life. America is - and always has been - a refuge for people who couldn't stomach the sort of society that generates (and celebrates) insufferable British boors like Jeremy Clarkson.


Admittedly it takes time to establish a ruling class and an underclass, but one must give the colonials credit for being fairly energetic in this respect. Names like Kennedy, Bush and Clinton seem to convey an automatic right to the taxpayer's money, and the mass purchase and importation of Africans between 1500 and 1860 not only created a new underclass (the natives having been effectively wiped out by violence, drugs and disease) but even (1654, Virginia) subdivided the underclass by allowing blacks to own slaves. 

As for JC, it is an undisputed fact that Top Gear was the BBC's most profitable export to the USA, putting even class-ridden crap like Downton Abbey into the shade.  It seems that some Americans quite like irony and self mockery, but perhaps this level of comedic sophistication hasn't migrated west of the Pecos yet, despite Judge Roy Bean's exemplary protoclarksonism.

As for insufferable boors, the Mayflower carried exactly that class of passenger

Quote
The Pilgrim Fathers saw little chance of England becoming a country in which they wished to live. They viewed it as un-Godly and moving from a bad to worse state......

....."The place they thought of was one of those vast and unpeopled countries of America, which are fruitful and fit for living. There are only savages and brutish men, just like wild beasts."

I could go on, but we are drifting away from the point here. It seems from experiment that examination results show a genetic correlation that can be distinguished from environmental effects. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.
« Last Edit: 31/08/2015 16:55:20 by alancalverd »

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #56 on: 31/08/2015 17:45:42 »
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature. The fact that you people prefer to pretend that those faults don't exist, damns your case irretrievably.

America, you see, struggles against racism and sexism and doesn't enshrine them as scientific truth....even in Texas. So, yes, America isn't Britain.....Sir.


It is difficult to admit it, but you may, in fact, be correct. Intelligence may actually be largely inherited  We shall have to see if Prince William has inherited  the keen intelligence and, perhaps, integrity  of Prince Charles.

I shall continue to believe that this is not so - at least until I see a study that includes separated twins and DOESN'T presume that women are of different intelligence. Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately. As a benighted colonial the subtleties of "Genetic Psychology" elude my grasp.

And also I will wait until there is a "scientific" article that doesn't rate a screamer on the front page of the Daily Mail.
« Last Edit: 31/08/2015 18:46:09 by Pecos_Bill »

alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #57 on: 01/09/2015 00:06:48 »
Quote
It should be noted that regressing out the mean effects of sex from GCSE scores has no bearing on these analyses, which are concerned with the aetiology of variance within the sexes and covariance between the sexes, rather than the phenotypic mean difference between the sexes

Because this is science, not politics, it is important to remember that there is a known difference between GCSE scores for boys and girls.
Quote
Mean sex differences can be seen for English, with girls scoring about one-third of a standard deviation higher than boys, and for mathematics, with boys scoring about one-tenth of a standard deviation higher than girls. No significant mean sex differences were found for science.
This has been observed consistently for years and whatever its cause, it was important to exclude it by means of the statistical analysis, which the authors did.

There was no mention or suggestion of any sex difference in intelligence.

Last time I was in the States, (about 6 months ago) they still had upright urinals in the men's restrooms. I suspect your countrymen are less worried about sexism than you seem to be.

I  haven't spotted the racism in the paper. Perhaps you could point it out. As we never had racially segregated education in the UK (at least not within living memory), it would be rather difficult to measure anyway. So-called religious segregation in Northern Ireland is just another facet of the gang warfare that substitutes for government in that benighted corner of the universe - don't expect me to apologise for that.

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #58 on: 01/09/2015 00:10:40 »
Sir,

Of course this study looks fair to you, Bless your testosterone blinded, Slytherin heart. One would be amazed if it didn't look to be totally on the square.

***********************

Dear Readers,

As much fun as it has been to come here and break a lance with these contemporary Warleggans and Slytherins, the fact of the California drought compels me to stop here.

These encounters engender a furious need for a long hot shower, and I am beset by guilt at the thought that some wee muggle tyke in Tulare county may be forced to share her brothers' old bathwater as a consequence of them.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2015 00:27:36 by Pecos_Bill »

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #59 on: 01/09/2015 19:41:49 »
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature. The fact that you people prefer to pretend that those faults don't exist, damns your case irretrievably.

America, you see, struggles against racism and sexism and doesn't enshrine them as scientific truth....even in Texas. So, yes, America isn't Britain.....Sir.


It is difficult to admit it, but you may, in fact, be correct. Intelligence may actually be largely inherited  We shall have to see if Prince William has inherited  the keen intelligence and, perhaps, integrity  of Prince Charles.

I shall continue to believe that this is not so - at least until I see a study that includes separated twins and DOESN'T presume that women are of different intelligence. Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately. As a benighted colonial the subtleties of "Genetic Psychology" elude my grasp.

And also I will wait until there is a "scientific" article that doesn't rate a screamer on the front page of the Daily Mail.
Do you understand the irony of saying "because of its obvious racist " when you are the one posting racist comments about "smug white men" here?
As Alan has pointed out, there's no obvious racism in that paper- as far as I can see, race never gets a mention. You are the only one who has brought it up here and, frankly, you are the one who has demonstrated deep prejudice against national and racial groups.

Your continued ranting about "at least until I see a study that includes separated twins" shows that you have yet to understand the research- so you are clearly not competent to comment on it.

As for "Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately."
That's easy.
For any of a thousand reasons- genetic, cultural etc- boys and girls do not typically get the same exam scores.
Fraternal twins have a roughly 50% chance of being the same sex, and a roughly 50% chance of being different sexes.
But identical twins are always the same sex.
So, on that obvious basis, you would expect fraternal twins to have bigger differences between their scores than identical twins.
Since that's exactly the difference that the research is looking at, you need to allow for it.

Since you were unable to work that out for yourself, it seems (once again) that you are not bright enough to understand this piece of work.
It's also not even close to the same as saying that there's a difference between intelligence between the sexes. That's just another of your strawmen.


Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #60 on: 01/09/2015 22:09:39 »
By Gosh, I always thought that Ben Elton was dreaming up those characters in his stories. This thread is like finding long lost works of Wodehouse. THESE are the very same people Psmith encountered in those books. Go know!

Oh well, that kid in Tulare will probably grow up to admire Donald Trump anyway.

Say folks, word is that Ben Elton has a book coming out this December. It should be very good. The comedic quality here is a few pegs lower, but needs must.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2015 22:12:27 by Pecos_Bill »

Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #61 on: 01/09/2015 22:17:47 »
Would you like to try discussing science for a change?

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #62 on: 02/09/2015 04:33:03 »
"Behavioral genetics" a science.... or Tory propaganda ?

This Plomin bird is hooked up with Michael Gove [ ptui!] - the former Tory education Minister and now Tory whip    (see below)


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Let's see what others have to say...

The zombie theory of innate IQ

Attempts are being made to resuscitate the idea that ability is predetermined by our genes – doubtless linked to moves within the Conservative Party to reintroduce grammar schools and selection at 11. Recent research by Robert Plomin claims that 60 percent of achievement in GCSE Maths or Science is genetic. His work is acclaimed by Michael Gove’s senior adviser Dominic Cummings. (See the linked article earlier in this issue Bad science, worse politics.). The belief that academic ability is genetically inherited has long served to justify inequality. [1.]

***************

Finally, this garbage  was published in 2013.

What is the political reason that it has shown up here, today -- 2 years later ?

Is this not just some Tory agitprop masquerading here as science??

In America this stinking racist garbage would go into the nearest cess pool. Shame on you people that it pollutes this forum at all. Who has twisted your arm?



[1.]http://www.changingschools.org.uk/E4L%20zombie%20IQ.pdf
« Last Edit: 02/09/2015 05:28:27 by Pecos_Bill »

alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #63 on: 02/09/2015 07:36:22 »
No need for the ranting: I don't think anyone with a wisp of intelligence or humanity likes the Tory party or Mr Gove, but please show where race, parentage, class, income, social status, or anything other than GCSE results and twin zygosity, is mentioned in the paper. Apart, of course, from the reasonable inference that identical twins have the same father.   

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #64 on: 02/09/2015 08:30:20 »
I repeat.

This study was done two years ago and appears here immediately after the Tory government took power. Why the delay if not the Tory desire to return to grammar schools and selection at the age of 11?

This appeared last May in The Guardian...

Grammar schools: a Tory rightwinger’s dream; everyone else’s nightmare [1.]

So spare us that tap dance about the objectivity of these "researchers".

Instead  What Quid Pro Quo skulldoggery did the Tory party make to fund this vile perversion of science?


Or was the British Research council suddenly tired of funding actual medical research on stuff like Cancer and Diabetes so they suddenly decided to walk on the wild side?

Sounds good to me, but i only got born yesterday. Readers, how does it sound to you?

[1.] http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/may/11/grammar-schools-tory-rightwinger-selection

PS: I rant when I see rich old white [expletive deleted] trying to misuse science as a pretext to deny 11 year old children a fair shot at an education. What, Sir, makes you rant?
« Last Edit: 02/09/2015 08:49:13 by Pecos_Bill »

alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #65 on: 02/09/2015 16:44:16 »
The Tory government took power over 5 years ago. Michael Gove lost the Education post a year ago. It's a good idea to get your facts straight before looking for correlations between them.

At what point in the paper under discussion was it suggested that anyone should be denied "a fair shot at an education" on any basis whatever? The paper discussed the variance of a few outcomes, and showed that it was significantly greater between heterozygous twins than between homozygous twins. What's the big deal?

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #66 on: 02/09/2015 18:12:33 »
It literally makes my skin crawl to discuss this with any British educated person who chooses not to see this "research" in its proper political, historical (and uniquely British) context.

I am hardly amazed that this vile pack of lies flourishes in the same Britain which perpetrated the "Burt Affair".

"Over the course of his career, Burt published numerous articles and books on a host of topics ranging from psychometrics through philosophy of science to parapsychology. It is his research in behaviour genetics, most notably in studying the heritability of intelligence (as measured in IQ tests) using twin studies that have created the most controversy, frequently referred to as "the Burt Affair." Shortly after Burt died it became known that all of his notes and records had been burnt, and he was accused of falsifying research data. The 2007 Encyclopædia Britannica noted that it is widely acknowledged that his later work was flawed and many academics agree that data were falsified, though his earlier work is often accepted as valid.""  [1.]


I am highly unimpressed that the British "naked scientists" here pretend to be innocently unaware of the manky history of "behavioral genetics".

Was you born yesterday, Hoss?

Let me point out, Watson, the singular fact that "Doctor" Plomin's "scientific study" does not mention Cyril Burt's "research" in any manner whatsoever. What did the Tory puppet "Scientist" do in the night, Mister?

[1.] Wikipedia,"Cyril Burt"
« Last Edit: 02/09/2015 18:17:15 by Pecos_Bill »

Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #67 on: 02/09/2015 20:09:12 »
This Plomin bird is hooked up with Michael Gove
Ho hum.
He isn't a bird, he's a bloke and the "bird" hooked up with Michael Gove is Sarah Vine. (and a nastier couple of pieces of work would be hard to find- but they have nothing to do with the paper or its funding)

Everybody knows that Burt's work was faked.
So what?
It's not as if anyone is citing him. It was a long time ago an it wouldn't have passed either  ethics cttee approval or peer review today.

Now, would you like to say what is actually wrong with the science in the paper that Plomin et al wrote?
Or are you actually accepting that, while you don't like the outcome, the actual evidence supports the conclusion?
That's the important question.
Do you agree that the data show a statistically significant link between exam scores and genetics?
If not, please show what error they have made.
Don't cite any more old poets or old psychologists.
Don't quote politics. Don't make racist comments. Don't try to start a conspiracy theory.

Just show us where the scientific error is.

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #68 on: 02/09/2015 20:31:02 »
Poisoned fruit from a poisoned tree.

The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the Charlatans and crooks behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. They figured that enough time had passed that they could pull the wool over the eyes of the general public with this - Hey, Presto! --"Discovery".

That is obvious to any person with a normal intelligence.

Which makes me wonder how you - Mr. Bored Chemist -- managed to figure out stoichiometry and reaction kinetics  ---- if in fact you aren't being purposefully disingenuous to pursue some hidden agenda.


"Doctor" Plomin received his doctorate from the University of Texas. Has he sworn to its veracity on his honor as a Texan? Because I get a bodacious whiff of George Bush and his Texas WMD horse manure in all of this.

Long hot shower, here I come. If we keep this up. I'm going to get all pruney.

Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #69 on: 03/09/2015 19:37:16 »
"The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the Charlatans and crooks behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. "
Bollocks
No paper in nuclear physics these days mentions Blondlot's N rays.
Similarly, Modern biology doesn't mention lamarkian evolution very often.
Modern medicine doesn't cite Benveniste's work on the "memory" of water.

The reason for not mentioning Burt's work is that it's not relevant because it wasn't valid. He cheated.

Now, do you actually have anything to say about the science in the paper?
Are you saying they made up the data or that their mathematical analysis is flawed?
Or do you just not like the outcome?

alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #70 on: 03/09/2015 19:51:14 »
I think we must go along with Pecos Bill's logic, not least because he won't go along with ours.

It is noticeable that Pecos Bill has not cited Mein Kampf at any point in his argument. He is therefore a Nazi apologist. Nor has he mentioned Das Kapital or the Koran, nor quoted the relevant and seminal works of Aleister Crowley or Lytton Strachey. He is thus a crypto-everything-nasty and Not Safe In Taxis.

By their omissions shall ye know them.   
« Last Edit: 03/09/2015 19:53:01 by alancalverd »

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #71 on: 03/09/2015 22:19:16 »
I was informed when tried to  log  on here earlier today, that I had been banned permanently from all forums for "violating the rules".

I don't know why I am able to post this now but it may have something to do with an email I sent to a reporter at "The Guardian".

I must resolve in the future not to suggest that "The naked scientist" is subject to political pressure in what it presents or allows spoken here. In other words beware of dirty work at the crossroads of science.

How fair was it to gag me and then let these people continue to take pot shots? The thing speaks for itself. Steady the buffs.

Now then, a real scientific paper includes a mention of prior research. Plomin's paper fails to do that.

Res ipsit loquitur.

At the moment I am on iTunes listening to "This week in Science" podcast. As far as I know they are not mouthpieces for any political faction
« Last Edit: 03/09/2015 22:21:05 by Pecos_Bill »

alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #72 on: 03/09/2015 22:55:55 »
Quote
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature.

The Twins Early Development Study (TEDS) is supported by ........with additional support from the US National Institutes of Health [HD044454; HD059215].

Quote
Now then, a real scientific paper includes a mention of prior research. Plomin's paper fails to do that.

References

    1. Haworth CMA, Asbury K, Dale PS, Plomin R (2011) Added value measures in education show genetic as well as environmental influence. PLoS ONE 6: e16006 doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0016006.t004. .......
3. Loehlin JC, Nichols J (1976) Heredity, environment and personality. Austin: University of Texas......
23. Samuelsson S, Byrne B, Olson RK, Hulslander J, Wadsworth S, et al. (2008) Response to early literacy instruction in the United States, Australia, and Scandinavia: A behavioral-genetic analysis. Learn Individ Differ 18: 289–295 doi: 10.1016/j.lindif.2008.03.004. ........
35. Tseng JCR, Chu H-C, Hwang G-J, Tsai C-C (2008) Development of an adaptive learning system with two sources of personalization information. Comput Educ 51: 776–786 doi: 10.1016/j.compedu.2007.08.002. .........



I think I can see the problem.

Quote
I am reading, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.
The rest of us are talking about Shakeshaft et al, from which the above italicised quotes are taken. Relax, Bill, and take a deep breath. All is forgiven.
« Last Edit: 03/09/2015 23:06:00 by alancalverd »

evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #73 on: Today at 00:21:31 »
Gentlemen, gentlemen....
Let's avoid the personal attacks (or ad hominem arguments, for the linguaphiles among us), and just stick to the science, shall we?

Pecos_Bill

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #74 on: Today at 07:35:57 »
I was abruptly struck off with no prior warning after I accused this forum of being a dupe....

He who speaks the truth must have one foot in the stirrup.
-Arab Proverb

Please keep it civil - mod
« Last Edit: Today at 13:02:51 by evan_au »

 

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