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Author Topic: Fundamental constants and my case for intelligent design  (Read 22063 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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Fundamental constants and my case for intelligent design
« Reply #25 on: 18/07/2008 04:37:57 »
People thank you all,  again I was not trying to convert anyone to silly religious dogma or doctrine, just debate sensibly about an intelligent designer being the author of the universe and indeed all of existence.

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What I will NOT support though, and I will resist it with all means at my disposal, is having religious zealots trying to ram their beliefs down my throat and threatening my way of life because it doesn't conform to their credo (No, Alan, I'm not aiming that at you).

Thank you this was not my intention and I dislike fundamental nonsense like a 6 day creation 4004 years ago etc, just as  much as you do. I  also believe the universe is very very old on our time scale, indeed near the postulated 14/15 billion years.

The only place where I differ from you guys is that I believe an intelligent mind could be behind it all, maybe not acting in a direct manner, but remote and distant like Einsteins god of Spinoza, sort of nudging and tweaking here and there when neccessary..

Regards

Alan
« Last Edit: 18/07/2008 09:11:50 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #26 on: 18/07/2008 06:45:52 »
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"You do not have to repeat what Darwinism is all about and you are all wrongly assuming I have no concept of evolution.

Do I come over as some sort of an ignoramus or what?

Hmm well let's see...

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If for instance we took a hypothetical analogy of millions of Boeing 747 airplanes, full of bricks, mortar and water, and dropped all this, at random upon the earth at once, would the result ever be the one of the glorious building constructions we see all around us, such as the wonderful beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house that was created, designed and built by mere mortal humanity? A trillion billion monkeys bashing at a billion typewriters for a billion years would never produce even one of Shaspears sonnets much less than the infinitely more complex DNA molecule.

Yes. That is in no way an analogy to evolution. That is a straw man argument.

And listing hundreds of reknown people who believed in a creator will convince no atheists of anything, they are generally people who can think for themselves without following what others think blindly. And why did you list Albert Einstein?
« Last Edit: 18/07/2008 07:50:40 by Madidus_Scientia »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Fundamental constants and my case for intelligent design
« Reply #27 on: 18/07/2008 08:11:32 »

The only place where I differ from you guys is that I believe an intelligent mind could be behind it all,

I haven't said there isn't an intelligence behind it all. The case isn't proven either way. I just happen to think that the evidence against is far more convincing.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Fundamental constants and my case for intelligent design
« Reply #28 on: 18/07/2008 08:25:33 »
Alan, Einstein did not believe in a god who interfered with the universe once it was created. Einstein was more of a pantheist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

The only intelligent minds associated with this universe that we know of were produced by almost 4 billion years of evolution.

The universe runs itself. It does not need help. The fact that it got to the way it is all on its own makes it that much more beautiful and amazing than if it was indeed designed. Why not accept it and appreciate it the way it is? Why ruin it by inventing a designer?

Is it really a sensible debate if one side contends the existence of an imaginary being, offers no evidence, and provides only weak argument and logic?
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #29 on: 18/07/2008 09:36:07 »
Doctor Beaver,

Re-reading all the good replies posted i saw this one I overlooked.

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A question I've asked a few creationists and not yet had a coherent reply to - if God created us and made this planet for us to live on, why did he make it such a dangerous place (with earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tsunami, etc)? Surely, any being powerful enough to have created the universe could have put us somewhere a bit safer.

If god were to put us in a sort of cushy everlasting paradise, with no challenges grapes as large as pumpkins growing everywhere, no geological events, everything just growing there, no need for homes because the climate is always perfect no death no suffering, no darkness only beautiful light and warm sunlight get my drift?

After a hundred years, we might like it after a thousand maybe still like it, after a million years, man!! We would start to be really pissed off with our never changing stupid companions and a billion years heaven would have become an unimaginable boring “Hell”

I hope my reply is more intelligent than those you received from idiot creationist who cant think beyond their very short noses.

See were I am coming from?

Regards

Alan

 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #30 on: 18/07/2008 12:37:58 »
Alan - your reply may apply were we immortal; but that is not the case. We wouldn't each be around for a million years to get bored with it.
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #31 on: 18/07/2008 13:03:02 »
Alan,

can I just ask what you mean by the following?

"Re-reading all the good replies posted i saw this one I overlooked."
Good replies! Are you saying that there were some bad replies? Did these good people give up their time to post replies only for them to be categorised good or bad?

"If god were to put us in a sort of cushy everlasting paradise, with no challenges grapes as large as pumpkins growing everywhere, no geological events, everything just growing there, no need for homes because the climate is always perfect no death no suffering, no darkness only beautiful light and warm sunlight get my drift?
"

Possibly not. Are you saying that plagues and pestilence, not to mention war, famine, hunger...the list goes on...are put here by your god to keep us on our toes and so we don't get bored?

"After a hundred years, we might like it after a thousand maybe still like it, after a million years, man!! We would start to be really pissed off with our never changing stupid companions and a billion years heaven would have become an unimaginable boring “Hell”"
Why would they be never changing? Would they not evolve? Oh, and it generally takes only a few years (days, or months) to become pissed of with our companions.

"I hope my reply is more intelligent than those you received from idiot creationist who cant think beyond their very short noses."
So, you don't like people challenging your idea of a god, but are quite happy to call others idiots for what they believe!

"See were I am coming from?"
Not really.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #32 on: 19/07/2008 04:14:28 »
Doctor Beaver and others

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Alan - your reply may apply were we immortal; but that is not the case. We wouldn't each be around for a million years to get bored with it

Perhaps you don't get my point, immortality is impossible for any biological entity and indeed our sun earth and even perhaps the universe. "There is relentless entropy to contend with"

Paul
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Are you saying that there were some bad replies? Did these good people give up their time to post replies only for them to be categorised good or bad

You are  over sensitive I meant "ALL THE REPLIES WERE SOUND GOOD LOGIC AND I THANKED EVERY ONE FOR THEIR TIME AND EFFORTS FOR THEM" Where the heck did I categorise anybody ??

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Possibly not. Are you saying that plagues and pestilence, not to mention war, famine, hunger...the list goes on...are put here by your god to keep us on our toes and so we don't get bored

Read my posts carefully "it is not my god" "not my paradise" "but that of silly sects , cults and fundamentalist nonsense. Just an attempt to answer a difficult even impossible question, I have absolutely no idea how an infinite being would reason because I am finite


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I hope my reply is more intelligent than those you received from idiot creationist who can't think beyond their very short noses

Well I ask the forum was my idea more sensible than the sects, cults, fundamentalists that come knocking at the door and invading our privacy with their idiotic nonsense that they are brain washed with. I spent a whole year trying to reason with one of these people who uninvited by me tried to force his silly ideas on me. And over they years I have been plagued by these people to the point of becoming very angry with their nonsense


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So, you don't like people challenging your idea of a god, but are quite happy to call others idiots for what they believeI would not have started this thread if I did not like people challenging my idea of god!

I called no one "idiots on the forum"  and "did not join this forum to trade insults as you have begun to do".


What I meant was believing in a 40 day flood that rose up to cover all the mountains on the earth including mount Everest, god making a rainbow only then, the universe being created in exactly 6004 years on the first of June this kind of nonsense. Ad- infinitum

I could go on and on giving examples of these kinds of stupid beliefs, yes to me idiotic when force down my gullet by unwelcome mislead people knocking at the door. "Their beliefs are idiotic" "not them the are brain washed by this nonsense that is all"

Are you then a creationist If you are come out of the shadow and put your views to the forum?

Make no mistake about it I do not differ at all from the majority of the forum and started this thread as a god believer to generate sensible dialogue and debate on this everlasting subject

Regards

Alan
« Last Edit: 19/07/2008 04:32:23 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #33 on: 19/07/2008 09:04:29 »
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After a hundred years, we might like it after a thousand maybe still like it, after a million years, man!! We would start to be really pissed off with our never changing stupid companions and a billion years heaven would have become an unimaginable boring “Hell”

That sounds like an allusion to immortality.

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I spent a whole year trying to reason with one of these people who uninvited by me tried to force his silly ideas on me.

I hope you took plenty of toilet breaks!  :D
« Last Edit: 19/07/2008 09:06:14 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #34 on: 19/07/2008 19:10:06 »
Doctor Beaver.

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That sounds like an allusion to immortality.

A biological finite entity like tiny weeny Little me  ;D  [:-'(] and all the rest of humanity will never ever live on a earth paradice, the earth, solar system Etc are finite just like tiny little me.

Entropy will bring us all to and end, life is a critical illness and the prognosis is absolute death for all of humanity.

People I don't believe in 7 day literal creation nonsense just believe in an intelligence out is the great somewhere

My belief is much much closer to yours than that of sects, cults fundamentalist etc etc. I have never belonged to any organised religion as not of them can move me with reasonable facts.
Regards
Alan

i
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #35 on: 20/07/2008 06:09:02 »
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Are you then a creationist If you are come out of the shadow and put your views to the forum?

No I am not a creationist, the church I most associate with is the Federation Of Christian Orthodoxy For Faith.

I am not even hiding in the shadows, I just dislike topics like this one. I simply wanted clarification on what you were trying to put accross. I also offer you an open invitation to find out more about our faith.

Disclaimer:
There is more than one faith, although only one true faith; the mormon faith.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #36 on: 20/07/2008 08:27:48 »

There is more than one faith, although only one true faith

Don't they all say that?
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #37 on: 20/07/2008 10:16:21 »
Paul, is that Federation a real church or are you kidding?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #38 on: 20/07/2008 14:27:37 »
Actually there are plenty of true faiths. The faith of many people is perfectly true. It;'s just what they believe that's not true. There's a bloke in town hu truly beleives he is Napoleon. His faith in this is perfectly clearly present. It's just that he's wrong.

Incidentally the "Federation Of Christian Orthodoxy For Faith" is within a gnat's fart of having a really unfortunate acronym.
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #39 on: 20/07/2008 15:43:59 »

There is more than one faith, although only one true faith

Don't they all say that?

Yes. But according to the font of all knowledge, South Park, The Mormons are the only true religion.

Paul, is that Federation a real church or are you kidding?

Stefan, I want it to be a real church...does that count?

Incidentally the "Federation Of Christian Orthodoxy For Faith" is within a gnat's fart of having a really unfortunate acronym.

BC, Have you not read the latest issue of Private Eye?
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #40 on: 20/07/2008 16:10:27 »
Yes Paul, it does :p Wishful thinking is the root of it all isn't it?
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #41 on: 20/07/2008 17:30:35 »
Paul,

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Disclaimer:
There is more than one faith, although only one true faith; the mormon faith.

Remember now you made this statement!! and Mormonism it is more unacceptably to me and any thinking person than those of most cults/sects I have come across during my life.

I have had visits from young so called "elders" just out of their teens still wet behind the ears trying to influence me with this abject nonsense. I can take a stand point and point out that it is huge colossal nonsense

I know a great deal about Mormonism and dislike just like every other "ISM"

Mormon doctrine for instance god is an exalted man from another planet who came to earth had intercourse behind poor Josephs beloved to be wife Mary, Thus committting both adultery and fornication to produce his biologic son jesus. not "JESUS"

So by this jesus is a bastard!!

They have no idea about who created the universe and unlike my hypothetical of one great intelligence, the universe has billions and trillions of gods just like the one they serve.

"Utter nonsense" you brought it up not me and note amongst my many studies and interests one is that of comparative religion of which Mormonism is the most ridiculous.
« Last Edit: 20/07/2008 17:35:02 by Alan McDougall »
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #42 on: 20/07/2008 18:02:35 »
Alan,

Thanks for your reply, I don't have the time to give a full reply, but I wonder if you could clarify a few things from your last post?

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Mormon doctrine for instance god is an exalted man from another planet who came to earth had intercourse behind poor Josephs beloved to be wife Mary

So, he had sex behind Mary. But who with?

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So by this jesus is a bastard!!

What has jesus got to do with it? He is a poor Latin American immigrant who mows my lawn! He is not even a member of this forum!

I will reply more fully on the morrow.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #43 on: 20/07/2008 18:43:52 »
Paul,

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So, he had sex behind Mary. But who with?

Mary of the holy family of the bible. ;)
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #44 on: 20/07/2008 18:45:00 »
Of course this is abject nonsense!! POOR JOSEPH
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #45 on: 20/07/2008 21:36:47 »
When Jesus went to Mount Olive, Popeye punched him in the mouth  :D
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #46 on: 20/07/2008 23:38:38 »
Alan you and I are precise opposites. 

I do not believe in any form of God that acts with intelligence in this universe or any form of afterlife but I do believe in religion as a vital part of creating a cooperative and cohesive society and the concept of a loving and knowing God as a simple model for interacting with others and our environment so I am a member of the Church of England and a regular church goer.

The big problem with religion today is that it cannot change fast enough to cope with the last hundred years of discovery.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #47 on: 21/07/2008 06:38:40 »
Soul Surfer

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I do not believe in any form of God that acts with intelligence in this universe or any form of afterlife but I do believe in religion as a vital part of creating a cooperative and cohesive society and the concept of a loving and knowing God as a simple model for interacting with others and our environment so I am a member of the Church of England and a regular church goer

Religion used sensibly, that does not force its ideology doctrines and dogma down my throat are Ok with me and give the community a guideline of morals.

I cannot rap my mind around the fact as an atheist you can attend and pretend to believe in a God that your priest must believe.

Do you pretend to your wife and priest (the one who dresses like mother and expects you to call him father)that you believe in god?. What purpose can you possibly have in having the words of a non-existent god talked about week after week; heck it must be really really boring.

I have never belonged to any organized religion and never will until they come up with sound reasonable explanations about ideas such as. How evil can exists side by side with "THEIR OMNIPOTENT ALL GOOD GOD?". It just makes no sense to me

I can go on listing contradictions like this if you want, but I think you are most likely aware of most of them. Have you asked your priest about this type of thing?

Regards

Alan
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #48 on: 21/07/2008 09:06:46 »
Church services are just magical rites that have been legitimised.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #49 on: 21/07/2008 10:03:39 »
Alan and Beaver  you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Human beings are fundamentally social animals and must live in groups and cooperate to survive and succeed.  Religious communities are the only really caring communities that look to the long term life of the planet and not to the individual. To live a whole life it is vital for every human being to belong to a creative and constructive community otherwise there is a fair chance they will belong to a pillaging rampaging and destructive community.  So choose the community that suits you best it does not matter which religion.  There are some very good points to being a modern pagan.  I chose C of E because it is the most common local variety and will accept me and my wife at the time followed that religion.  I explained my position to the vicar before I was confirmed.  He thought deeply for days and then accepted it.

The human mind  works by creating models of things that are most likely to happen based on experience.

Language and all communication works by using symbols to represent these models.

Religious writing uses the symbols of the time to describe these models and ideals in the best way possible and must always be understood in the context of the environment in which it was written.

Most destructive religious thinking comes from taking these models to literally and out of context.  Once you have got over this there is no problem.  I can say the creeds with no problem because they fit perfectly with my understanding of the symbols.  This does not coincide with many other people's understanding at the moment but I have hopes that they will eventually come round to my way of thinking.

As to attending services.  I feel it is a good discipline to have some time out to think of others and I find them very mentally refreshing.
 

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« Reply #49 on: 21/07/2008 10:03:39 »

 

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