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Author Topic: Fundamental constants and my case for intelligent design  (Read 22050 times)

Offline Soul Surfer

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Fundamental constants and my case for intelligent design
« Reply #50 on: 21/07/2008 10:39:42 »
If you wish for a simple interpretation of the way I understand some important religious symbols let me explain a few.

God The father  the entire universe/multiverse     totally neutral

God The son  Life on this planet in all its complexity personified into a historical individual

God the holy spirit  the process of physical and organic evolution that has led to our physical universe life on this planet and our ability to understand it.

The communion service  a deeply symbolic reperesentation of recycling in which we must all die to enable life to continue set in the context of a meal.



 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #51 on: 21/07/2008 11:04:33 »
OK but I don't like being recycled like some junk by a mindless uncaring god.

I cannot see why we must sing worship and make symbolic jesters to an energy source.

I agree we are social animals and getting together in a peaceful loving way in church can make some sense.

But never on false pretences

When Stephen Hawking abandoned the big band idea his first committed Christian wife took stand and divorced  him. good for her she stood by her. beliefs
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #52 on: 21/07/2008 11:17:30 »
Here is another view point on our existence

From different poets consolidated in my collection

The world is poor
Her fortune is buried in the sky
And all her treasure maps
Are of the earth

Authentic Messiahs cannot cease
Their meditations on vast human hurt
To heed the pain of nails
Damnation, senseless
Killers! Oh, for a fee

Cassandra, if the worlds on fire
We must save a cup of ashes for
The seed.

Hell’s logic consists in
Preventing murdering by
Murdering the murderer
Heavens logic greets every
Murderer with grace
Dying when the time comes
With beatific face.

A God too large to walk in
Human shoes
Has outgrown hope of
Human use
And heavy skeptics weighted down
With doubt
Can never rise to
God’s about

A  humanist in chocking sea
Called for help presently
Received in full intensity

“You must swim, if you would be.
Self –reliance makes one free
   “That’s nice”
He said and floated easily
          And died I misery

Evil finds a ready home
Where beauty is despised
And ugliness enthroned

Prayer is most real when
we refuse to say “Amen”

We most love heaven when
We will not end our

Conversations quickly
Who found their “Amens
       Close at hand

Come to the court of God
Having eyes unwashed with
Dreams and you will see
    Nothing

Death is the confirmation of
The believer’s creed

For the skeptics it is discovery
    Immense and too late

The first sound sleep we get
          On earth
We must be roused on realm away.

Light is never given
 While we fear the dark.

Materiality a blessing all its own.
Spirit -Demons play in fire
 Hoping for cremation.

In terror of their immortality
           They envy dying humanity
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #53 on: 21/07/2008 13:14:31 »
Since when did Steven Hawking abandon Big Bang Theory?

Alan, it is not about what you do or don't like. If you propose a "theory", it needs to have a grounding in reality outside your own mind.


Soul Surfer,

I understand the human need for community, however religious communities are certainly not the only caring ones.

I hope you are not suggesting that religion has a monopoly on or is the origin of morality, and without it there would be societal chaos. There are such things as laws, for one, and for another, Homo sapiens sapiens has a strong innate biological moral sense.

To address the issue of symbolism, it seems like you need to perform all sorts of mental acrobatics to make those interpretations. Your interpretations seem to have no logical connections to the "symbols". If there are, you're really stretching them. Also, the authors of the biblical texts likely did not consider  much of what they wrote as being metaphorical.(edit: or they did not intend much of what they wrote to be taken metaphorically)

Further, there is little if any contemporaneous evidence to suggest that Jesus was a historical individual. The Bible, I'm sure you'll agree, is not a historical document. 
« Last Edit: 21/07/2008 13:50:21 by _Stefan_ »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #54 on: 21/07/2008 17:15:14 »
How am I throwing out the baby with the bath water?
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #55 on: 21/07/2008 23:41:08 »
Beaver you were dismissing religion from a superficial examination of the features that you find absurd rather than looking at the deeper importance of it in human evolution.

I personally consider that without the large scale long term unification of the first complex societies that were greated by religion we would still be roaming around in small tribal groups hunting and gathering and killing people off when things got overcrowded.

All religious texts are by definition metaphors because they are struggling to describe something that is beyond language.  Consider some of the most valued christian sayings.  the parables of jesus  they were clearly never meant to betaken literally but used in context as a guide.
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #56 on: 22/07/2008 01:06:38 »

Further, there is little if any contemporaneous evidence to suggest that Jesus was a historical individual. The Bible, I'm sure you'll agree, is not a historical document. 

No, the bible is not an historical accurate document but there are plenty of other writing of historical value that mentions a character called Jesus or a righteous man = Jesus. Several Greek texts and Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire mention the character and gives their sources.  Josephus and also Tacitus mentions him.

The Dead Sea Scrolls also talk of a Teacher of righteousness = Rabbi which the Jesus character come from.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #57 on: 22/07/2008 06:55:39 »
Stephen
Quote
Since when did Steven Hawking abandon Big Bang Theory?

Alan, it is not about what you do or don't like. If you propose a "theory", it needs to have a grounding in reality outside your own mind.


Hawking warns Government over 'disastrous' science funding cuts
Stephen Hawking seeks 'Einsteins of Africa'
Hawking: Man must leave planet Earth
"This proposal, with volume weighting, can explain why the universe inflated," Prof Hawking tells New Scientist. By taking into account that we have a parochial view of the cosmos, the team has come up with a radical new take on cosmology.

Most models of the universe are bottom-up, that is, you start from well-defined initial conditions of the Big Bang and work forward. However, Prof Hertog and Prof Hawking say that we do not and cannot know the initial conditions present at the beginning of the universe. Instead, we only know the final state - the one we are in now.

Their idea is therefore to start with the conditions we observe today - like the fact that at large scales one does not need to adopt quantum lore to explain how the universe (it behaves classically, as scientists say) - and work backwards in time to determine what the initial conditions might have looked like.

In this way, they argue the universe did not have just one unique beginning and history but a multitude of different ones

 and that it has experienced them all.


Religion to me when it has become ridiculous nonsense should be thrown out with the bath water , just like we must abandon stupid ideas such as a flat earth or earth centred creation

Alan 

The "new theory" is also attractive because it fits in with string theory - the most popular candidate for a "theory of everything."

String theory allows the existence of an" unimaginable multitude of different types of universes in addition to our own," but it does not provide a selection criterion among these and hence no explanation for why our universe is, the way it is", says Prof Hertog.

"For this, one needs a theory of the wave function of the universe."

And now the world of cosmology has one. The next step is to find specific predictions that can be put to the test, to validate this new view of how the cosmos came into being.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #58 on: 22/07/2008 08:13:38 »
Ian - strangely enough, I am actually religious.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #60 on: 22/07/2008 09:51:16 »
Does god want us to murder each other because of self perceived morals that simply do not interest this colossal mind ?

I think if he is "original awareness". "the thought behind all existence", "the uncaused cause" "the alpha and omega points", "the immovable rock", "source and sustainer of existence" he just might not care.

Do we care if cockroaches eat each other or is god more personal to man?

Presuming god is infinite then we humans are much closer to a cockroach than an infinite god. Or are we made uniquely in the image of his mind, be it on a minute scale?

Thus my thread on fundamental constants! Who ran around the universe putting up traffic signs saying faster than light speed forbidden. Why the heck must we be limited to C. Maybe god made it this way to keep us firmly based on planet earth.

Regards

Alan
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #61 on: 22/07/2008 11:53:24 »
Alan, please. If you have no evidence, what is the point of going on about the designer?

Re: Steven Hawking. From what I've read about this, he is not rejecting the big bang. He is simply trying to adjust the model. Can someone who is more familiar with this, fill us in please?

Mad man, were these records contemporaneous? Do you have any references?
The Dead Sea Scrolls are religious texts. Why should they be considered seriously?

Soul Surfer,

Quote
I personally consider that without the large scale long term unification of the first complex societies that were greated by religion we would still be roaming around in small tribal groups hunting and gathering and killing people off when things got overcrowded.

Does the evidence support this hypothesis, though?

Is religion simply a side effect of developing complex societies, rather than an aide to them?

Much of the Bible is instructive. Also, where is the metaphor in the trinity, and how does this logically connect to your interpretations?
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #62 on: 22/07/2008 19:47:40 »
Mad man, were these records contemporaneous? Do you have any references?
The Dead Sea Scrolls are religious texts. Why should they be considered seriously?


The Roman records may not have been contemporaneous but were written within a few years of each other and have remained untouched or unaltered, unlike the modern bibles books. I don't have any references with me or any sources as this was from studying many years ago but I would think the net would have plenty of references.

Although the Dead Sea Scrolls are religious texts they have remained unaltered and untouched since being written and do depict the history of a Jewish religious sect.
Most of the translations or what is known about them seem to back up and reinforce the Old Testament writings which were written down at the time and remain for most part unaltered. Its the modern New Testament which has changed with books and some dubious writings being added later to reinforce the new "Christian" doctrine.

« Last Edit: 22/07/2008 20:24:16 by that mad man »
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #63 on: 23/07/2008 03:32:06 »
Thanks Mad man, I'll look them up when I get the time.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #64 on: 23/07/2008 07:08:53 »
Just to add;

When For instance the modern version of the book of Isiah was compared to the approx 3000 year old Dead sea scroll version, they were found to be identical
 

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« Reply #64 on: 23/07/2008 07:08:53 »

 

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