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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #50 on: 30/07/2008 22:51:57 »
He is right you know but what he fails to realise is that in Britain English evolved but in America it remained the same. No imagination or innovation you see.

Agreed

Seconded
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #51 on: 31/07/2008 01:07:33 »
He is right you know but what he fails to realise is that in Britain English evolved but in America it remained the same. No imagination or innovation you see.

Agreed

Seconded

Vetoed - what you fail to realize is that all Americans can understand each other as we have maintained English in it pure form by continual education and demanding standards of pronunciation. I the UK a person living in the center of London can't understand a person from Grave's End or Swanscomb. Lord forbid that they be required to speak to someone from Liverpool, Manchester, or Newcastle. Glasgow is just out of the communication loop - at least in English.

 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #52 on: 31/07/2008 01:08:53 »
I also cite this thread.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16248.0

No other comment or argument is needed to prove my point.
« Last Edit: 31/07/2008 01:20:34 by JimBob »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #53 on: 31/07/2008 08:04:07 »
He is right you know but what he fails to realise is that in Britain English evolved but in America it remained the same. No imagination or innovation you see.

Agreed

Seconded
I the UK a person living in the center of London can't understand a person from Grave's End or Swanscomb. Lord forbid that they be required to speak to someone from Liverpool, Manchester, or Newcastle. Glasgow is just out of the communication loop - at least in English.


What absolute twaddle! Most people in the UK can understand people from other parts perfectly well. Anyway, are you telling me that a Louisianna swampdog would have no problems conversing with a Bronx cab driver?

Glasgow is different because thats in a different country. You may just have well said that about Kiev or Timbuctu.

P.S. It's Gravesend not Grave's End, and it's only about 10 miles outside London. See? Americans know nothing about geography!
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #54 on: 31/07/2008 23:47:58 »

P.S. It's Gravesend not Grave's End, and it's only about 10 miles outside London. See? Americans know nothing about geography!


OK - Spelling was wrong BUT central Londoners not being able to speak with East-Enders is just tragic. And a symptom of the spoken doggerel that permeates the British Isle.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #55 on: 01/08/2008 07:55:53 »

P.S. It's Gravesend not Grave's End, and it's only about 10 miles outside London. See? Americans know nothing about geography!


OK - Spelling was wrong BUT central Londoners not being able to speak with East-Enders is just tragic. And a symptom of the spoken doggerel that permeates the British Isle.

Who told you that Central Londoners can't understand East Enders? It's complete rubbish. East Enders do NOT talk like Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #56 on: 01/08/2008 14:13:53 »
Doc your a star, I laughed my socks off at the link Jim provided :) Birmingham can also be Brummigem Burningham Brum, but the inhabitants are usually called Brummies, whereas us Blackcountry folk are called Yam Yam's
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #57 on: 01/08/2008 14:16:33 »
"Cockney represents the basilectal* end of the London accent ...."

"Cockney is characterized by its own special vocabulary and usage, and traditionally by its own development of "rhyming slang." Rhyming slang, is still part of the true Cockney culture even if it is sometimes used for effect. More information on the way it works can be found under the Cockney English features section."

(*ba-si-lect (bay'zuh lekt , baz'uh-)  n.
                  1.  a variety of a language, esp. a creolized
                       one, that is most distinct from the
                       acrolect.
             [1960-65; basi- (as comb. form of BASE 1 or
             BASIS) + (DIA) LECT]
   Derived words
             --ba si-lec'tal, adj. )


http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/CockneyEnglish.html


==========================================================

Cockney speech

Cockney speakers have a distinctive accent and dialect, and frequently use Cockney rhyming slang. The Survey of English Dialects took a recording from a long-time resident of Hackney.[10]

John Camden Hotten, in his Slang Dictionary of 1859 makes reference to "their use of a peculiar slang language" when describing the costermongers of London's East End. In terms of other slang, there are also several borrowings from Yiddish, including kosher (originally Hebrew, via Yiddish, meaning legitimate) and shtumm (/ʃtʊm/ originally German, via Yiddish, meaning quiet[11]), as well as Romany, for example wonga (meaning money, from the Romany "wanga" meaning coal[12]), and cushty (from the Romany kushtipen, meaning good). A fake Cockney accent, as used by some actors, is sometimes called 'Mockney'.

[edit] Typical features

    * H-dropping[13]
    * Broad /ɑː/ is used when the letter a precedes /f/, /s/, /θ/ and sometimes /nd/ (in words such as bath, path, demand, etc), which originated in London but has now spread across the south-east and into Received Pronunciation. However, there are exceptions to this rule; for example, the word maths or masculine.[14]
    * T-glottalisation: Use of the glottal stop as an allophone of /t/ in various positions,[15][16] including after a stressed syllable. /t/ may also be flapped intervocalically.[17]
    * Glottal stops also occur, albeit less frequently for /k/ and /p/, and occasionally for mid-word consonants. For example, Richard Whiteing spelt "Hyde Park" as Hy' Par' . Like and light can be homophones. "Clapham" can be said as Cla'am.[18]
    * Loss of dental fricatives:[19]
          o /θ/ becomes [f] in all environments. [mfs] "maths"
          o // becomes [v] in all environments except word-initially when it is [d]. [bɒvə] "bother," [dɪ] "they." Sometimes, this occurs mid-word, as "Bethnall Green" can become Bednall Green.[20]
    * Diphthong alterations:[21]
          o /eɪ/ → [ɪ]: [bɪʔ] "bait"
          o /əʊ/ → [ʉ]: [kʰʉʔ] "coat"
          o /aɪ/ → [ɑɪ]: [bɑɪʔ] "bite"
          o /aʊ/ may be [ə]: [tʰən] "town"
    * Other vowel differences include
          o // → [ɛ̝] or [ɛi]:[22] [tʰɛ̝n] "tan"
          o /ʌ/ → [ɐ̟][23]
          o /ɔː/ → /oː/ when in non-final position[24]
          o /iː/ → [əi]:[25] [bəiʔ] "beet"
          o /uː/ → [əʉ] or [ʉː]:[26] [bʉːʔ] "boot"
    * Vocalisation of dark l, hence [mɪowɔː] for Millwall. The actual realization of a vocalized /l/ is influenced by surrounding vowels and it may be realized as ,
  • , or [ɤ].[27]

    * Cockney has been occasionally described as replacing /r/ with /w/. For example, thwee instead of three, fwasty instead of frosty. Peter Wright, a Survey of English Dialects fieldworker, concluded that this was not a universal feature of Cockneys but that it was more common to hear this in the London area than anywhere else in Britain.[28]
    * As with many urban dialects, Cockney is non-rhotic. A final -er is often pronounced as [ə]. Words such as car, far, park, etc. can have an open [ɑː].[29]
    * An unstressed final -ow is pronounced [ə]. This is common to most traditional, Southern English dialects except for those in the West Country.[30]
    * Grammatical features:[13]
          o Use of me instead of my, for example, "At's me book you got 'ere ". Cannot be used when "my" is emphasised (i.e., "At's my book you got 'ere" (and not "his")).
          o Use of ain't instead of isn't, am not, are not, has not, and have not
    * Use of double negatives, for example "I didn't see nothing."[31]

Most of the features mentioned above have, in recent years, partly spread into more general south-eastern speech, giving the accent called Estuary English; an Estuary speaker will use some but not all of the Cockney sounds.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney
« Last Edit: 01/08/2008 14:40:27 by JimBob »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #58 on: 01/08/2008 18:07:02 »
For a start, Cockneys do NOT come from the East End of London. That is a fallacy. A Cockney must be born within the sound of Bow bells. This is wrongly assumed to refer to the church in Bow, East London. In fact, it is a church in the City of London, St Mary-le-Bow in Cheapside.
 

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« Reply #59 on: 01/08/2008 18:07:49 »
Doc your a star, I laughed my socks off at the link Jim provided :) Birmingham can also be Brummigem Burningham Brum, but the inhabitants are usually called Brummies, whereas us Blackcountry folk are called Yam Yam's

It can also be pronounced Burbiggub.  :D
 

Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #60 on: 01/08/2008 22:24:46 »
For a start, Cockneys do NOT come from the East End of London. That is a fallacy. A Cockney must be born within the sound of Bow bells. This is wrongly assumed to refer to the church in Bow, East London. In fact, it is a church in the City of London, St Mary-le-Bow in Cheapside.
Well I'll go to the foot of our apples and pears.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #61 on: 01/08/2008 23:25:08 »
For a start, Cockneys do NOT come from the East End of London. That is a fallacy. A Cockney must be born within the sound of Bow bells. This is wrongly assumed to refer to the church in Bow, East London. In fact, it is a church in the City of London, St Mary-le-Bow in Cheapside.
Well I'll go to the foot of our apples and pears.

 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #62 on: 02/08/2008 01:10:01 »
For a start, Cockneys do NOT come from the East End of London. That is a fallacy. A Cockney must be born within the sound of Bow bells. This is wrongly assumed to refer to the church in Bow, East London. In fact, it is a church in the City of London, St Mary-le-Bow in Cheapside.

So what does all of this locah history have to do with the fact that A Londoner cannot understand the "basilectal* end of the London accent ...." of a Cockney, wherever the dickens they are from within the city.

The fact that two people claim to speak the same language yet are unable to communicate - except perhaps by gestures and grunts - is proof that there is something sadly wrong with the British. At least we Americans can understand each other no matter where we live or are born.

Sick, sick peoples in that island off Europe.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #63 on: 02/08/2008 07:39:45 »

So what does all of this locah history have to do with the fact that A Londoner cannot understand the "basilectal* end of the London accent ...." of a Cockney, wherever the dickens they are from within the city.


As I said previously, that is simply not true.

Quote
At least we Americans can understand each other no matter where we live or are born

So you could happily converse with a black gangsta from the blocks and understand him perfectly well, could you?

Let's see. What does this mean...

Cop it straight from the bay, tap dance on the yay. Your people make a G day.

 

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« Reply #64 on: 02/08/2008 15:19:18 »

So what does all of this locah history have to do with the fact that A Londoner cannot understand the "basilectal* end of the London accent ...." of a Cockney, wherever the dickens they are from within the city.


As I said previously, that is simply not true.

Quote
At least we Americans can understand each other no matter where we live or are born

So you could happily converse with a black gangsta from the blocks and understand him perfectly well, could you?

Let's see. What does this mean...

Cop it straight from the bay, tap dance on the yay. Your people make a G day.



THAT is just blarny that makes no sense even to you, castor.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #65 on: 02/08/2008 17:03:47 »
But it's how some Americans speak, and all Americans can understand each other.
 

Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #66 on: 02/08/2008 23:12:09 »
May I remind JimBob that Britain is part of Europe not an Island off Europe.
 

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« Reply #67 on: 02/08/2008 23:14:06 »
May I remind JimBob that Britain is part of Europe not an Island off Europe.

erm, excuse me. Europe is that place off the coast of Britain!
 

Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #68 on: 02/08/2008 23:21:41 »
Might have know that Beaver is a member of UKIP.
 

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« Reply #69 on: 02/08/2008 23:32:03 »
With the emphasis on KIP
 

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« Reply #70 on: 02/08/2008 23:49:49 »
Night! Oh, just saw Batman the Dark Knight. What a load of cods wallop.
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #71 on: 03/08/2008 01:52:49 »
He is right you know but what he fails to realise is that in Britain English evolved but in America it remained the same. No imagination or innovation you see.

Agreed

In other word, American English is the truest English spoken. UK English as it is now is a mishmash of garbled words understood only in a small area. The UK is fragmenting into smaller and smaller tribes, lacking unity.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #72 on: 03/08/2008 10:54:17 »
He is right you know but what he fails to realise is that in Britain English evolved but in America it remained the same. No imagination or innovation you see.

Agreed

In other word, American English is the truest English spoken.

Oh dear, wrong yet again. You really should stick to subjects you actually know something about. That truest English is spoken in Stirling, Scotland.
 

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« Reply #73 on: 03/08/2008 14:14:49 »
But not in England
 

Offline ukmicky

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« Reply #74 on: 03/08/2008 14:51:18 »
May I remind JimBob that Britain is part of Europe not an Island off Europe.

erm, excuse me. Europe is that place off the coast of Britain!
So true

For a start, Cockneys do NOT come from the East End of London. That is a fallacy. A Cockney must be born within the sound of Bow bells. This is wrongly assumed to refer to the church in Bow, East London. In fact, it is a church in the City of London, St Mary-le-Bow in Cheapside.
Does that mean as me mickey mouse were I was born in london is beyond the audible range of the bells that one day in the future wif a favourable wind and on a day that a Hair Gel ringer wif stronger than normal muscles pulls on the cords I could aw of a sudden become a cockney. 
« Last Edit: 03/08/2008 15:10:00 by ukmicky »
 

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