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Author Topic: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?  (Read 12720 times)

Offline Lynda

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Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« on: 07/08/2008 09:25:53 »
http://www.virginmedia.com/digital/science/endoftheworld.php?vmsrc=vmhpld

Apparently, the Hadron Collider, which has been built to split atoms, create black holes etc, in Geneva, is being switched on this Saturday.

Nostradamus has been quoted as forecasting the end of the world through something happening in Geneva (I have forgotten his exact wording although it is on the Virgin Media page (link above).    Ia the Hadron Collider as scary as Virgin Media make out or can we look forward to the rest of our lives continuing after Saturday? 

What is the useful point of this thing anyway?

[title slightly moderated to make the thread easier to find - daveshorts]
« Last Edit: 12/09/2008 16:20:17 by daveshorts »


 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #1 on: 07/08/2008 12:33:59 »
The LHC collides sub-atomic particles and it is not thought likely that it has sufficient energy to create black holes. If it did do so (because elements of the theory behind this were not right) then these black holes would not be sustained but would evaporate (Hawking radiation).

I would not lose sleep over this. You can read anything you like into the vague ramblings of Nostradamus, and many people have. Even if you believed that he somehow had links to the future, you would think he would have been more specific in his predictions. Historically, he had specific interests in the contemporary issues surrounding Geneva and not events that may happen in hundreds of years in the future.

The LHC will help enormously in our understanding of Quantum Physics and, in particular, it will enable some of the Grand Unified Theories (of which there are several) to be eliminated. This won't directly benefit the man in the street for a while, but that is not what basic science is about. That is really another debate.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #2 on: 07/08/2008 23:21:27 »
Graham:-

If there are extra dimensions, and they have the right geometry, then black holes are a real possibility in the LHC.

Classic (if I may call them that) string theories state that extra dimensions cannot be larger than 10-33cm. As such, the energy needed to produce black holes is way beyond the capabilities of the LHC (I believe that somewhere in the order of 1013 times the energy would be required!).

However, there are theories involving warped dimensions that mean an extra dimension can be larger, even infinite. If these theories are correct then the LHC may well be powerful enough to produce black holes. But don't panic; they would be too small, and too short-lived, to cause any problems.

It's all to do with the heirarchy problem. If an infinite warped extra dimension exists, and gravity is locally localised on a brane, then the energy required to produce gravitons is reduced from 1019GeV to about 1TeV, and that is well within the capability of the LHC.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2008 23:33:39 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #3 on: 08/08/2008 00:07:23 »
Are there not already 1 TeV accelerators?
 

Offline JP

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #4 on: 08/08/2008 00:28:33 »
Are there not already 1 TeV accelerators?


Yes, the main ring at Fermilab in the US is capable of 1 TeV (and named the Tevatron because of that).  But the Tevatron has an upper limit of about 1 TeV, whereas the LHC can go beyond that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tevatron
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #5 on: 08/08/2008 00:56:49 »
I thought the point of the LHC is to see if our science is correct and also maybe to see if we can discover new things that we don't know about, so the way i see it is we don't know exactly what will happen which is partly why turning on this thing is so exciting .

They say if a black hole was to be created it would radiate away however i thought that Hawkins Radiation was still only a theory and as of yet unproven.

I also hear and understand the earth is being hit all the time by cosmic rays and  therefore  if these high energy collisions do create mini black holes they cant be dangerous and must radiate away as the earth is still here, however their is also the theory that if these daily collisions were causing mini black holes we wouldn't know about it as they would pass straight through the earth and away from us at speeds close to the speed of light.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2008 23:40:54 by ukmicky »
 

Offline JTankers

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #6 on: 08/08/2008 03:07:39 »
Well stated ukmicky.

Have you read Professor Dr. Otto Rossler's refutation of CERN's safety arguments at LHCFacts.org?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #7 on: 08/08/2008 09:56:04 »
Well stated ukmicky.

Have you read Professor Dr. Otto Rossler's refutation of CERN's safety arguments at LHCFacts.org?

PAH... what does he know!  :P

I note in the article that it gives a projected energy level for the LHC of 14TeV. That's double what I believed it to be. All the literature I've read gives the limit as 6-7TeV.

What is not stated in the article is that most theories do not include the creation of MBHs at that energy level. As I stated in my previous reply, the energy requirement is quite possibly 1019GeV - 1013 times the power output of the LHC. MBHs will only be formed if (and it's a very big IF) gravity becomes strong at the weak scale rather than the Planck mass scale. For that to be the case there needs to be a warped extra dimension with a specific charge and geometry, plus a single 3-dimensional brane with locally localised gravity.

The models that incorporate such a scenario are very much in their infancy, and many physicists do not agree with them.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #8 on: 09/08/2008 00:13:18 »
Hey i just had a thought (dangerous) maybe the reason why we have no evidence of ET is because they all get to the logical stage of development like us where everyone builds a LHC and  end up being swallowed by a blackhole. ;D

Hey Doc you any good at filling holes.
 

Offline Flyberius

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #9 on: 09/08/2008 01:27:24 »
Hey i just had a thought (dangerous) maybe the reason why we have no evidence of ET is because they all get to the logical stage of development like us where everyone builds a LHC and  end up being swallowed by a blackhole. ;D

Hey Doc you any good at filling holes.

You wouldn't be the first to spout that highly original "theory".
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #10 on: 09/08/2008 08:03:11 »

Hey Doc you any good at filling holes.

My girlfriend seems to think so  :D
 

Offline that mad man

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #11 on: 09/08/2008 14:36:43 »
Hey i just had a thought (dangerous) maybe the reason why we have no evidence of ET is because they all get to the logical stage of development like us where everyone builds a LHC and  end up being swallowed by a blackhole. ;D

It could also work the other way round. It there was any ET's and the LHC was dangerous then maybe they would stop it from threatening them.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #12 on: 09/08/2008 14:45:03 »
Hey i just had a thought (dangerous) maybe the reason why we have no evidence of ET is because they all get to the logical stage of development like us where everyone builds a LHC and  end up being swallowed by a blackhole. ;D

It could also work the other way round. It there was any ET's and the LHC was dangerous then maybe they would stop it from threatening them.
Hmmm  So they would have two very hard choices to make ,either be swallowed by a black hole or travel to France to shut the thing down . we're gonna be swallowed ;D
 

Offline JTankers

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #13 on: 09/08/2008 15:13:55 »
Beams may begin September 10th, but high energy collissions are still several weeks away, time enough for an on-line emergency safety conference.

Physicists who may not have studied LHC Safety arguments in any detail proclaim that more powerful cosmic rays hit Earth regularly and Earth is still here.  Why is this argument nonsense?

A micro black hole created by a cosmic ray collision with Earth would travel through Earth at nearly the speed of light, leaving the Earth unharmed. CERNís LHC Safety Assessment Group acknowledged this in a March 2008 email.

Abstract from Dr. Rosslers plea to the world, copy available on LHCFacts.org.

"A nightmarish situation, that can still be hoped to be averted in time through communication within the scientific community, is drawn attention to. Only a few weeks remain to find out whether the danger is real or nothing but a mirage. After this time window is closed, it will take years until we know whether or not we are doomed. The story line has all the features of a best-selling novel. The reader is asked to contribute constructively."

Quote from Dr. Otto E. Rossler, Professor Theoretical Biochemist, visiting Professor of Theoretical Physics, inventor of the Rossler Attractor, founder of Endophysics, winner of the 2003 Chaos Award of the University of Liege and the 2003 Rene Descartes Award.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #14 on: 09/08/2008 15:17:18 »
Wouldn't LHCFacts.org be better named LHCConjecture.org?
 

Offline Lynda

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #15 on: 09/09/2008 20:08:50 »
A thought occurred to me this morning.     

If anything went wrong and either a larger than expected black hole occurred - or an explosion happened would the LHC be destroyed first?    If so we will escape the worry some of us have been having  ::)
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #16 on: 10/09/2008 19:24:03 »
I gather we are still here so it's a lot safer than some of the press would have you believe.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #17 on: 10/09/2008 21:13:15 »
I gather we are still here so it's a lot safer than some of the press would have you believe.

Not so. There have been some test proton beam firings, but the really big wizzy-bangy stuff hasn't started yet.
 

Offline Freeman

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #18 on: 11/09/2008 15:21:19 »
A thought occurred to me this morning.     

If anything went wrong and either a larger than expected black hole occurred - or an explosion happened would the LHC be destroyed first?    If so we will escape the worry some of us have been having  ::)

Lynda that will most certainly not happen.The design of the LHC comes from accumulated data of smaller accelerators that was entered into sophisticated simulation software that ran on the worlds most powerful super computers to calculate the effects and movement of higher energy particle collisions.

As for explosions or larger that expected black holes its all scare mongering.The beams are compressed by high powered magnets to a fine beam, when these beams from each end collide the will not even have the power output of half a stick of TNT.

Black hole forming.There is not a chance that it will happen.Black holes even small ones need a immense amount of energy and a extremely powerful gravitational force to be created .The LHC is simply not capable of creating the power needed to create a small black hole at its highest energy output.

As I said earlier all this is just scare mongering [period].

Cheers
Freeman
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #19 on: 11/09/2008 18:43:53 »
I note in the article that it gives a projected energy level for the LHC of 14TeV. That's double what I believed it to be. All the literature I've read gives the limit as 6-7TeV.
7TeV is the expected max energy of a single proton; two colliding protons --> 14 TeV.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #20 on: 11/09/2008 19:59:52 »
I note in the article that it gives a projected energy level for the LHC of 14TeV. That's double what I believed it to be. All the literature I've read gives the limit as 6-7TeV.
7TeV is the expected max energy of a single proton; two colliding protons --> 14 TeV.

Ah, I see. Thank you.
 

Offline Lynda

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Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #21 on: 12/09/2008 22:52:42 »
I gather we are still here so it's a lot safer than some of the press would have you believe.

Not so. There have been some test proton beam firings, but the really big wizzy-bangy stuff hasn't started yet.

Er, when is the "really big wizzy-bangy stuff" starting?    I am being cautious - just in case - although we will just have to go along with whatever happens!   

I have seen a video of this machine on the internet and my mind just boggles - who on earth designed that thing?
 

Offline Don_1

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Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #22 on: 13/09/2008 11:56:54 »
I rather doubt we are in any danger from the LHC, in fact I would go so far as to say th........... Aghhhhhhhhhh!!!!
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #23 on: 14/09/2008 12:11:40 »
 

Offline Lynda

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Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #24 on: 20/09/2008 18:18:39 »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626944.stm

It appears we are safe for a few months - the thing has developed a fault and has had to be turned off!

Personally, I am sure the money spent on the thing would be better spent on improving this planet - not finding out useless things about how it and the universe was formed - I am content to accept that the Big Bang or whatever happened and we are here!
 

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Is the Large Hadron Collider Safe?
« Reply #24 on: 20/09/2008 18:18:39 »

 

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