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Author Topic: How electricity and magnetism are (dis)connected from relativity  (Read 12842 times)

Offline sorincosofret

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How electricity and magnetism are (dis)connected from relativity

Background of experiment
Ampere experiments show that magnetic force between two parallel conductors has the form:

  (2.1)
where: I1, I2 are the currents in the two wires, r the distance between conductors, and l represent  the length of  conductor participating to the magnetic interaction.
On experimental basis Ampere makes the following observations:
ē   Parallel conductors carrying currents in the same direction attract each other;
ē   Parallel conductors carrying current in opposite directions repel each other.
Classical electrodynamics itís not able to give an explanation for this experimental reality. The theory of special relativity considers magnetism as an effect of moving charge.

Proposed experiment

The experiment consists in two conductors with opposite and equal electric currents interacting magnetically on a small portion like in fig. 2.1. Relative to the first conductor considered fixed, the second conductor must have a possibility to be dragged mechanically, with a variable, but small velocity VĖ up to 10 cm/s.
For simplicity letís consider I1=I2, and when both conductor are stationary a repelling force is observed and measured.
In the second step, the second conductor is dragged to the left with a small speed VĖ up to 10 cm/s.
At this speed, experimentally is observed, that the repelling force between conductors remain the same like in case of stationary conductors.


Figure 2.1  Ampere modified experiment

Letís increase a little bit the dragging speed up to m/s or hundred of m/s; strangely, the results of experiment are the same, more precisely a repelling force between conductors.

Relativistic interpretation of experiment

A cornerstone of theory of special relativity is represented by the explanation of magnetic effects of electric current. According to this, the electric current in the conductors are manifested by the flow of electrons, against a background of stationary ions. The actual effective speed of an individual electron is only about 1 mm/s. However, there are about Avogadro's number of electrons flowing per cubic centimeter of conductor. The overall relativistic effect is therefore quite large.
Without entering in mathematical treatment, the physical model for electric currents interaction according to special theory of relativity is following:
In case of two equal currents flowing in the same direction, the electrons are moving with same speeds in both conductors, in same direction (opposite to the electric current formal direction), and these electrons appear stationary relative to each other like in fig 2.2. For the purpose of proposed experiment, it is not important to describe the Lorentz contraction and how a moving electron feels the field of stationary nucleus.




Figure 2.2 Magnetic interactions between two currents with same direction of flowing

In case of two equal and opposite currents, the electrons are moving in opposite direction like in fig. 2.3



Figure 2.3 Magnetic interactions between two currents with opposite direction

What should happened in our experiment with two opposite currents, when the secondary conductor is dragged manually with a speed up to 10 cm/s (in reality after relativistic formulas, the effect should appear at a speed of dragging of 2 mm/s)?
When dragging speed V=0 and both conductor are static, normally Ampere force is measured between conductors; in this particular case with actual orientation of electric currents a repelling force is measured.
When secondary conductor is dragged with a variable and increasing speed some particular phenomena should appear, according to actual electrodynamics.
   With v1 and v2 are indicated the velocity of electrons in the conductors and for I1=I2 there is v1= v2 as value and opposite as direction.
   In order to have an intuitive and simple to interpret image of phenomena only the case of V = 2v2 is analyzed.
   When V = 2v2 and opposite as sign like in fig 2.1, the velocity of electrons in conductor 2 becomes the same as value and sign like in conductor 1, and in this case, the electrons from both conductors become stationary.
   But if the electrons are stationary relative to each others in both conductors, this lead to a change of sign of force between conductors. So with a simple dragging of a conductor at relative low velocity (after special theory of relativity about 2 mm/s, but letís say maximum 10 cm/s) the magnetic force must change significantly as value and sign.
In reality this effect is not observed, so the idea of electric current generated by a charge movement and also the relativistic interpretation of magnetic effects as a consequence of moving charge are false.
   The value of a theory is proportional with the cost of experiments necessary to disprove it and anyone can appreciate the cost of up proposed experiment.

Proposed explanation for experiment

   A theory of relativity has nothing to do with base ground of magnetism phenomena.
As was already presented in atomic book structure, electric current and magnetism are phenomena related to the electrons magnetic moments and not to charge movements. The secondary flux of electrons appearing in a circuit contributes to the resistivity of the conductor and other secondary effects.
   Of course two observers in different referential will see different value for the interaction between two conductors and this represent an application of relativity. But, in proposed theory both observer see the same phenomena more precisely a magnetic interaction.

If the Naked scientist (and the rules made special form me) forbids to present a new theory, but for other posts only the advertisement is possible, I have only a purpose with this posted materials:
to humiliate the actual science in principal with 10 euro experiments.
If someone looks at one recent posts (regarding a new theory of relativity) it can be seen that the same persons who prohibit me to post materials ( moving my posts, asking for removing my materials because are hidden advertisement etc), in that case are only simple commentators and probably they are waiting with excitement the final of Olympic games in order to read the new revolution in relativity theory. Please don't bother to move now the reminded post, because it will be a too striking and unjustified measure. I don't have nothing with seargenbazon or how is her name.



« Last Edit: 13/08/2008 09:29:43 by sorincosofret »


 

Offline daveshorts

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As usual sorincosofret you don't understand the physics you are critisising

You can feel the relativistic effect in magnetism because in a current the negative electrons and positive nuclei are moving at different speeds, so their charge is altered differently due to relativity so you feel a new force we call magnetism.

If you pick up a whole wire and move it then the relativistic effect on both the electrons and protons will be equal and opposite so there will be no net force on the object. The electrons will however feel a different force to the protons and if there is a complete circuit a current will flow - you have a generator!

Please learn some physics before you criticise it!
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Dave,

I was thinking that only the electrons are moving.... or my books of physics are out to date...
If you pick up a whole wire and move it, then the force between electrons cancel or change the sign, and another force can appear eventually between nuclei (which appear now in movement according to actual relativity).
I don't think the sign of the force between 2 electrons and 2 nuclei is the same as sign ...
In any case there is necessary a new treatment.. of entire process.
« Last Edit: 13/08/2008 10:14:39 by sorincosofret »
 

Offline daveshorts

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Not when you drag a conductor like you are proposing...
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Dave,
If your talent in physics is so great, make a demonstration of your abilities and presents a complete mathematical treatment of up presented  experiment (taking in consideration both electron and proton apparent or real movements).

Of course I expect to be banned... on other puerile reasons ...
« Last Edit: 13/08/2008 10:31:23 by sorincosofret »
 

Offline daveshorts

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I am just pointing out that you haven't noticed that if you drag a lump of conductor you are moving both the protons and the electrons. This means that although the electrons will be feeling a repulsive force the protons will feel an extra strong attractive force. The difference between the two will be the same as when the object wasn't moving, which is what you measure.

Look, scientists are actually really quite bright, there is no conspiracy of physicists to hide the problems with physics (if you had actually met any physicists the concept of a conspiracy of them would be quite a good joke) and if physics didn't work in a way which was this simple someone would have noticed, shouted very loudly and got a nobel prize for it. Apart from anything else for most of the last century most physicists desperately wanted to prove relativity wrong as they didn't like it, and I am sure this experiment has been done and that it works as predicted (if predicted correctly).
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Dave,
The Oxford and Cambridge laboratory are not far from you.
Consider that I'm the little and poor physicist, without any knowledge in this field and I posted a stupid experiment. Ask for them to indicate where the experiment was done. Ask for them to apply the magical formula of relativity and let's see what are the results.
Let's ask for  the other forum participants to give us a mathematical treatment of this experiment.
 
 

Offline daveshorts

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Having worked at the Cavendish, I know that they have far better things to do than run experiments whose results are predicted to be the same by both you and relativity.
« Last Edit: 13/08/2008 11:40:49 by daveshorts »
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Everything is getting along, but the deep grounds remain unclear".(Sommerfeld)

Of course some physicists are preoccupied to go along, others are preoccupied to write the same ideas with new sentences. But who is interested to make clear the deep grounds ????


 

lyner

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But who is interested to make clear the deep grounds ????
And what are you contributing to make things clear?
All you are doing is claiming that certain thought experiments will produce certain results which you say will disprove conventional Science. What you don't seem to appreciate is that either these experiments have actually been done or there exists plenty of equivalent evidence.
Anyone who designs a motor, a generator or a CRT is using conventional Physics for  the Technology which is used. Many experiments and even working pieces of equipment just wouldn't work if the presently accepted 'laws' didn't apply.
You ignore the fact that it is up to YOU to disprove these ideas which, to most people's satisfaction, are fine. Don't expect funding  for your experiments unless you can convince the 'system'.
Just stop wingeing.
Maybe you will be able to fund some research from all your book sales?
« Last Edit: 13/08/2008 13:59:06 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline sorincosofret

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There is no more then one day from the last post, where the difference between theory ( a cell with high resistance and infinitesimal current) and practice (a cell with normal resistance and a useful current) was discussed. The practice does not follow the theory or viceversa.
I don't think that up presented experiment is a thought experiment. Maybe actual interpretation is a science fiction one. If it's necessary I can deliver photo with the conductors arranged in proposed experiment.
Don't be worry about my source of founding.... in any case I'm not interested in a official collaboration now, because this will represent for me a bad affair.
Who told you that I'm interested to convince the system?
As I said I'm interrested to humiliate the science and their representants.
When the theory will be 85 % finished, then I will be interested for convincing the system, if there will be someone to be convinced.
In any case my theory will not appear in official journals so I can't see any reason for convincing them now. For the Galilean Electrodynamic journal ( a dissident one), I have convinced already the editor and I have 4 papers in printind and another few in the line.
I'm interested to see how long will exist this concubinage between two opposite theories and to see who's the winner.
I hope you remember the song of ABBA... The winner takes it all...
« Last Edit: 13/08/2008 14:23:46 by sorincosofret »
 

Offline BenV

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As I said I'm interrested to humiliate the science and their representants.
But you can't do that if they don't agree with your science - on this forum, there is the opportunity to discuss the science with others, yet you never seem to take any comments on board.  I appreciate that there is a language barrier, and so this makes discussion tricky, but the folks here are not instinctively against you.
 

Offline rosy

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Actually, Ben, that might have been true a couple of hours ago... but anyone whose stated objective is to humiliate people?

I have sympathy for individuals who really believe in their "new science" and get frustrated  when the rest of us don't see it the same way, after all I get pretty frustrated when I try to explain why they're wrong and they won't listen to me... so it's only fair.

But someone who declares themselves to be in this not merely for their own gain but explicitly to do down other people... I'm not just instinctively against them, I think they should be beneath our notice.

I shall give sorincosofret the benefit of the doubt for the time being because perhaps that particular statement was a mistranslation of what s/he meant, but I'm not exactly optimistic from the tone of the post in general.
 

lyner

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Who told you that I'm interested to convince the system?
As I said I'm interrested to humiliate the science and their representants.
I think we are in troll country, with attitudes like that being expressed.
You have to question those motives.
 

lyner

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For the Galilean Electrodynamic journal ( a dissident one), I have convinced already the editor and I have 4 papers in printind and another few in the line.
Interesting . . .  I can't seem to find your name in the cumulative index of the GE Journal
 

Offline graham.d

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I think this question has been answered but maybe it is simpler to say that the conductors have a net charge of zero even though they may have a current flowing. Moving a net charge of zero produces no magnetic effect. There are as many positive charges as negative charges in the wire. Moving a wire in the direction of the net flow of electrons moves all the electrons by V+ve and all the positive charges (assumed fixed) by V where V is the wire velocity and ve is the electrons average velocity. The effect of the moving wire is a net velocity of electrons of ve. It is tempting to think of the wire as a neutral river with electrons floating along in it, but this is not the case. The movement of the positive fixed charges cancels the extra movement of the electrons (as a result of the movement of the wire) leaving the net current the same.

There is no real need to invoke special relativity here although I appreciate that Maxwells equations are only really consistent with relativity. We had a variant of this question a while back with what happens when two opposite charges move on a parallel course. When stationary they attract but if moving fast enough, why does the resulting magnetic field not cause them to repel. In fact the electric field always causes attraction but if viewed from a frame that is moving fast enough, the magnetic field appears to reduce the attractive force but this can really be considered an effect of time dilation. The speeds have to be very great to create a significant magnetic field from a single charge. If viewed from a frame moving in parallel there is no magnetic field and the whole calculation of how fast they accelerate towards each other is invariant with a Lorentz transformation.
 

lyner

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That's all very well but what happened to my lines of force?
What are we to tell the kids?
I tried to explain it all in the Science Staffroom and it just brought on the pains.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Who told you that I'm interested to convince the system?
As I said I'm interrested to humiliate the science and their representants.
I think we are in troll country, with attitudes like that being expressed.
You have to question those motives.
It makes a change. Generally his motive seems to be to plug his book.
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Ben V,
I think in your archive there are all discussion even those deleted by authors. Please put again on line my message(s) where I'm categorised as idiot, etc etc.
Being a moderator, if it's possible, I want to know why the post ,,The collapse of Special Relativity" was maintained on the general forum and not moved at New theories (even after its content it is  worth to be put  nowhere).
Why you, BC and SophieCentaur moved my messages at new theory category, and this pure advertisement is maintained on the forum ?
At least someone should inform the author to write the title with small letters...
By comparison, my messages contain a experimental part, a theoretical part and a new approach (stupid or not remain to be examined) and the advertisement is in background.
Of coarse being to small, I don't make the rules so I must obey for the moment.
As you mentioned, there is a possibility to discuss with other on this forum.... but is not the only one possibility for me to spread out this theory. Supplementary as you can see, few are really interested in the scientific problems and more are interested in the ,,moral"  and ethical problems. It seems that the post where I put the sentence ,,I want to humiliate the actual science" rise in commentary (and reading) in one day more then other posts in one month.

Rosy,
I'm not so frustrated like you imagine.
Any new theory and its author is at least aware that to fight again a system is not a simple thing. It was a time when a  scientist unwanted in its habitat was forced to be exiled in other place in order to disturb a little bit the sensitive hears ....
It was a time in history of science when a scientist could publish a absurd paper in a foreign journal even in his habitat this thing was impossible. After that this absurd paper (see the history of spin) become revelation. This is not a singular case, but is not the time to divagate.
Now the situation is changed.
If you don't agree with directed line of science, you are prohibited to be published everywhere in the world.
In the weekend if I will have time I will put the answer (of some eminent physicists) at my submitted papers.
An editor of a optic journal told me that he is not able to publish the new treatment about binary stars because the original article was published in a American journal and I should addres to this journal.
The American journal answered me that the original article was published more then 50 year ago and they can't publish my paper.
Can you believe this was happened in 2006-2007? These are motivated reasons for prohibite a paper to be published?
There is a referent (university professor) who told me that it is not able to publish my paper about covalent bound because I can't explain the formation of orto and para hydrogen. I've made a comment explaining him that orto and para hydrogen are caused by something from nucleus of hydrogen which has nothing to do with electrons.,... but he remained at its oppinion.

There are journals who banned me to send another articles to them. There are journal who categorised me as crazy.

In front of their comportment, I have only one chance, to humiliate them and eventually to defeat them.
Of course don't understand that I have something with a specific journal, or with the person who has the job of referee.
I have something with the system and this theory (at least as far I'm covered by copyright low) will be never published in a scientific journal.
There will be published only in Galilean relativity or in a future new journal.
I will never have the destiny of Boltzmann and who read a little bit physics history knows what I'm refereed too.

Therefore I've worked hard, I work hard to have financial independence and to sustain my experiment and editorial activity.

I don't think there is more humiliation for a entire system then seeing how another system is growing under its eyes without possibility to stop him.
I don't think that is a greater humiliation for a entire system to see how milliards of $, euro etc are spent on research and another one comes with a symbolical budget and build a more consolidated theory .
I don't think there is a greater humiliation for actual science to see how the same materials submitted and refuted to be published in official journals are searched on the internet and copied and analysed.
The lowest number of new visitors registered in one month on the site is 300, with a percent of 50% of them adding my site to favorites. In this condition I'm prepared to ignore the scientific journal and their publishing politic.



Except BC (Before Christ), I don't have aversion or other negative feeling from one of you. Of course I wished to exist at least on a science forum a dialogue of ideas. But in life, when the things can't change, it is wise to accept as there are.

So I post here (at least as long it will be possible) because as I said the foundation of physics are false and actual science worth a lesson of humiliation.

In the entire world (even at Chinese and Japanese journal) I've found two editors able to see the problem of actual physics and the novelty of submitted papers. Papers was submitted to all journals with a IF greater then 1.
One editor (it's better to not give the name) has tried to make something but was calmed down by his boss.
The second is Dr. Cynthia Whitney from Galilean Relativity.
If the theory will be widespread, part of this work was made by she. Now there are passed on the second correction two papers (one related to covalent bound and another to Stern Gerlach experiment). Other two papers are at reference desks.
« Last Edit: 13/08/2008 23:12:27 by sorincosofret »
 

Offline Flyberius

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There are journal who categorised me as crazy.

Did you stop to think, "They might be right"?
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Every man has a dose of this. Is good for the manhood, when this dose at the leaders is small.
Of course my dose is exaggeratedly high. Because only a crazy man accept to know before a war that he is alone in front of a system (with quite infinite potentiality related to him) and to believe he is able to defeat it.
Regarding the submitted papers. I have nothing to comment when a editor proves ( in a direct or in a indirect way, or by consequences ) that ideas behind a paper are wrong and as scientist I'm aware that any theory need refinement and adjustments or is completely fiction.
In fact a second reason for my posts here are the critiques received which helped me in this process of refinement and to see where are the weekest points of the new theory and how can I fill them.
I'm not reacting violently to this kinds of critiques, and I support even ironical voice of them (and I answer in the same manner). It is in our nature to emphasize our talent or our knowledge and to have a Little piquancy in our formulation ...
But from here till the counting of out of printed book's or to formulate that another person is a idiot, etc. it is a great distance.
It is very easy to critiques; it is more complicate to use your brain in order to improve something or to change something.
Maybe I have other reasons to not sell, or to increase the price in order to become unattractive etc.

 
« Last Edit: 14/08/2008 05:00:29 by sorincosofret »
 

Offline BenV

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Sorin, when your threads have been moved to New Theories, it has been because you have been proposing a New Theory. Noone has been sure what to do with the general relativity thread yet - if he's proposing a new theory, then that's where it will go.
 

Offline Flyberius

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Well, develop your "theory", then show a corporation how much money it will make them, then who gives a damn what the scientific community thinks.

Oh wait that would require a mathmatical model and some proof.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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"I said the foundation of physics are false and actual science worth a lesson of humiliation. "
If, rather than just saying it, you gave us some real evidence that physics is wrong, the humiliation wouldn't happen.
 

lyner

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Do you not realise, sorin, that your need to provide some detailed evidence and some experimental proof for people to take up your ideas?

How can you be surprised when we don't accept what you say when it mainly consists of baseless ranting against ideas which most of us accept. This is made worse by your highly emotional and aggressive way of 'conversing'.
 

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