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Author Topic: How does "instinct" evolve?  (Read 149471 times)

lyner

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #50 on: 14/09/2008 14:53:38 »
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If it takes 33,127 generations NOT to produce a single new species of relatively uncomplicated bacteria, then how many generations does it take to produce a whale from a Pakicetus? Not to mention the 6 - 8,000,000 species in the Cambrian from nowhere, it seems.
Ever heard of a little thing called SEXUAL REPRODUCTION?
Species can develop at a fantastically quicker rate this way than the poor old trial and error  Asexual variety. The results of  mutation are constantly being injected into the gene pool and 'come out' if and when they prove to be an advantage.
To enable yourself to grasp the probabilities involved you need to be aware of the actual numbers - they are huge.
 

Offline BenV

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #51 on: 14/09/2008 14:59:02 »
I think you've misunderstood (Asyncritus, not sophie).  The birds with longer beaks were more likely to breed - so in the population as a whole the 2nd generation were more likely to have longer beaks.  Of generation 2, those with the longest beaks were the most likely to breed, so longer beaks again would be more common in generation 3 and so on.

Blakestyger was not suggesting that acquired characteristics were inherited.

We know that genetic mutations, deletions, translations, substitutions etc happen, and this is how we get new genes - so the genes for a long beak came from these processes.

And although Flyberius has been forward in his opinions, bordering on being rude, he's entitled to his opinions. Religion inspires strong feelings in people, both for and against.

Flyberius - please try to be a little more tactful, thanks.
 

Offline Flyberius

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #52 on: 14/09/2008 15:13:21 »
Flyberius - please try to be a little more tactful, thanks.

Sorry, I know I rarely contribute to these arguments and what I do say is usually anti-god and very offensive. 

Tough love.
 

Offline RD

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #53 on: 14/09/2008 15:48:07 »
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Charles Darwin to receive apology from the Church of England for rejecting evolution

The Church of England is to apologise to Charles Darwin for its initial rejection of his theories,
nearly 150 years after he published his most famous work.
 
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent      14 Sep 2008

www.telegraph.co.uk
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #54 on: 15/09/2008 08:34:41 »
Asyncritus, your definition of evolution is equivalent to saying that centimetres can't add up to kilometres. Genotypes and phenotypes don't just jump from one form into another like magic. There is a gradual accumulation of changes. These changes are evolution in action.

Of course, you reject despite the evidence that there are beneficial mutations that natural selection can act on, as you demonstrated with the E. coli experiment and the hypothetical beak lengthening.

It's unfortunate that you would rather pursue your ideology than actually understand the science. Please come back when you have done so. (There's no way you can come back with your current opinion after actually understanding the science. Please do us and yourself the favor). 
 

blakestyger

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #55 on: 15/09/2008 09:21:11 »
1. The genes for long beak ARE ALREADY THERE.

2. If they got longer by practice (ho ho!) then the longer beak CANNOT BE PASSED DOWN, because ACQUIRED CHARACTERISTICS CANNOT BE INHERITED!!!!!

So you have a lickle problem there, haven't you?  ::)

Asyncritus - you really haven't understood a thing, have you?
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #56 on: 15/09/2008 09:48:22 »
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If it takes 33,127 generations NOT to produce a single new species of relatively uncomplicated bacteria, then how many generations does it take to produce a whale from a Pakicetus? Not to mention the 6 - 8,000,000 species in the Cambrian from nowhere, it seems.
Ever heard of a little thing called SEXUAL REPRODUCTION?
Species can develop at a fantastically quicker rate this way than the poor old trial and error  Asexual variety. The results of  mutation are constantly being injected into the gene pool and 'come out' if and when they prove to be an advantage.
To enable yourself to grasp the probabilities involved you need to be aware of the actual numbers - they are huge.

Sophie

There is not a single case on record where you can point to a new species emerging either slowly or at once in the literature today.

I showed you the 33,127 generations didn't do it in Lenski's experiment. How many more do you need? I don't call that 'fantastically quickly', do you?

If a human generation is 14 years (to reach sexual maturity) then that's 33,127 x 14 = 464,000 years for NO new species to evolve. Tough luck!
 

Offline BenV

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #57 on: 15/09/2008 11:30:59 »
Dont forget that conditions were not changed in Lenski's experiment - had he started with one population, split it in two and subjected the subsequent generations to different selection pressures (different temperatures, type/amount of food etc) then you would have seen much quicker selection, and greater variation.  Even with no change in conditions, the bacteria evolved to be bigger and better able to compete.

You can't escape Lenski's observations, and you are choosing to ignore that bacteria reproduce asexually, thus greatly limiting the genetic variation from one generation to the next. Sexual reproduction recombines genes each generation, thus leading to much, much quicker variation.
 

Offline atrox

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #58 on: 15/09/2008 15:58:40 »
ignorance is not a proof, so again...
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5


And I already explained the "Race circle" to you in the other Thread... there are some of them you can observe today, that show pretty good how Evolution could work.. I gave you the Example of the great tit in Europe, these salamanders at the end of the quote are another one..

Quote
2) Reproductive isolation evolves gradually: species distinctions somewhat arbitrary
      Rassenkreis  (''race circle'): a geographically convergent series of species
        Ex.  Ensatina salamanders (Anura) are continuously distributed in California
              adjacent forms are reproductively compatible & morphologically similar
              ends of circle are reproductively isolated & morphologically distinct
(http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/2900_Species.htm)
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #59 on: 16/09/2008 11:34:55 »
The talkorigins article is a messy collection , mainly of polyploidy, and of very badly treated animals in some monster's laboratory.

And another point - these new'species' never leave the genus. So we've got a few miserable examples of species alterations, and 6,000,000 living species to account for. How do you square that numerical circle?

There is no example of new species arising in the wild where all this would have happened n million years ago.

I am horrified to read some of the quite monstrous experiments they performed to 'produce' these brutalised 'new species'. Have you read what they actually did? No, I didn't think so.

But I do want to say that these 'new species' are artificially produced for the most part, and cruelly for the rest.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2008 11:40:59 by Asyncritus »
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #60 on: 16/09/2008 11:37:09 »
1. The genes for long beak ARE ALREADY THERE.

2. If they got longer by practice (ho ho!) then the longer beak CANNOT BE PASSED DOWN, because ACQUIRED CHARACTERISTICS CANNOT BE INHERITED!!!!!

So you have a lickle problem there, haven't you?  ::)

Asyncritus - you really haven't understood a thing, have you?

Oh yes I have.

1 I understand that acquired characteristics CAN'T be inherited and

2 I understand that beneficial mutations occur so rarely that they cannot possibly have produced the 6,000,000 species alive today from any common ancestor(s).

So what do you think of that, then?
 

Offline atrox

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #61 on: 16/09/2008 11:40:28 »
There is no example of new species arising in the wild where all this would have happened n million years ago.

And I already explained the "Race circle" to you in the other Thread... there are some of them you can observe today, that show pretty good how Evolution could work.. I gave you the Example of the great tit in Europe, these salamanders at the end of the quote are another one..

Quote
2) Reproductive isolation evolves gradually: species distinctions somewhat arbitrary
      Rassenkreis  (''race circle'): a geographically convergent series of species
        Ex.  Ensatina salamanders (Anura) are continuously distributed in California
              adjacent forms are reproductively compatible & morphologically similar
              ends of circle are reproductively isolated & morphologically distinct
(http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/2900_Species.htm)
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #62 on: 16/09/2008 11:44:26 »
There is no example of new species arising in the wild where all this would have happened n million years ago.

And I already explained the "Race circle" to you in the other Thread... there are some of them you can observe today, that show pretty good how Evolution could work.. I gave you the Example of the great tit in Europe, these salamanders at the end of the quote are another one..

Ut the salamander is a living fossil. I gave you the reference, so you know it.

Quote
2) Reproductive isolation evolves gradually: species distinctions somewhat arbitrary
      Rassenkreis
  (''race circle'): a geographically convergent series of species
        Ex.  Ensatina salamanders (Anura) are continuously distributed in California
              adjacent forms are reproductively compatible & morphologically similar
              ends of circle are reproductively isolated & morphologically distinct
(http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/2900_Species.htm)

And have we got a single nice new genus with all these species? No, we don't. And what about these 6,000, 000 species today then? Where did they come from????
 

blakestyger

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #63 on: 16/09/2008 13:56:17 »
So what do you think of that, then?

I think that as we both come from opposite paradigms no meaningful discussion can take place between us.
For what it's worth, a careful reading of Life, An Authorised Biography by Richard Fortey will prevent you from having to defend this hopeless position you have chosen - good luck.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2008 14:00:02 by blakestyger »
 

lyner

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #64 on: 16/09/2008 15:34:48 »
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I showed you the 33,127 generations didn't do it in Lenski's experiment. How many more do you need? I don't call that 'fantastically quickly', do you?

If a human generation is 14 years (to reach sexual maturity) then that's 33,127 x 14 = 464,000 years for NO new species to evolve. Tough luck!

I thought bacteria reproduce asexually. Did you not understand the relevance of sexual reproduction and the consequent change in time scale for evolution?

You say there is no evidence for new species - aren't the museums full of them? Doesn't the DNA analysis of long dead organisms reveal it?

You obviously have a 'faith' issue here. Try to concentrate on evidence if you want to talk about Science. Religion and Science don't have to be mutually exclusive, you know. Or are you going to join an Amish community? (Even they have come to terms with some of this new fangled modern Science.)
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #65 on: 25/09/2008 09:37:11 »
Hey Sophie

How did sexual reproduction evolve from asexual reproduction?
 

Offline atrox

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #66 on: 30/09/2008 00:50:49 »
oh my....
even some asexual individues change genetic materials from time to time ... if you finally understood the princibles of evolution, than there is no need to explain anything further...
otherwise Im just not willing to explain it again
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #67 on: 30/09/2008 08:52:13 »
Oh come on Atrox. Don't be so chicken.

All you have to do is show how a cell which is happily dividing into two every day of its life, can suddenly decide that

It's going to split its number of chromosomes into EXACTLY HALF.

Then each half is going to meet up with another one that's divided into EXACTLY HALF as well.

Then they are going to join up somehow.

Then the 2 HALF nuclei are going to join up and form the ORIGINAL whole number and live happily ever after.

Now that's not too difficult, is it? Heh heh.
 

blakestyger

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #68 on: 30/09/2008 11:18:42 »
Asyncritus

You've got some reading to do.  ::)
 

Offline atrox

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #69 on: 30/09/2008 14:01:35 »
... can suddenly decide that

suddenly? decide? ...I really wonder what idea of the theorie of evolution you have...apparantly not even close to the actual one...even after all these discussions now...
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #70 on: 30/09/2008 16:04:46 »



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Asyncritus

You've got some reading to do.  roll eyes

Like what do you have in mind?
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #71 on: 30/09/2008 16:15:06 »
... can suddenly decide that

suddenly? decide? ...I really wonder what idea of the theorie of evolution you have...apparantly not even close to the actual one...even after all these discussions now...


Come on atrox, don't be a spoilsport now.

Here's a little bacterial cell. It is dividing into two every 2 hours, asexually, and it can do that all year, no problem.

Over there is another organism. It doesn't divide into two.

It counts its chromosomes, finds 800. Now it sez to itself, hey sexual reproduction is a good thing.

So it divides its chromosomes into 400 in two new cells. Each one is going to die, because it's 400 short!

So it looks round, and hey presto, over there is another one with 400 chromosomes too. So it rushes over there, and heck, there's a big chemical wall preventing it from going in! So both die.

Now what happens? I dunno, but I could go on like this all day, making up stupid stories like this trying to figure out how it really happened.

Why not try it? It's good for a laugh if nothing else!

How about it Sophie?

 

Offline atrox

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #72 on: 01/10/2008 22:23:21 »
just read something about the reproductional cycle of plant lice ... maybe than you will understand, that there is no either...or in evolution. There are a lot of steps inbetween. No cell ever had to decide between reproducing sexual or nonsexual (and, btw, they never had to decide and surely not suddenly as you still try to imply!). The same way as no fish had to decide to stay in water or to go to the desert.. ::)
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #73 on: 02/10/2008 11:24:17 »
Well, if they didn't decide, and they didn't do it suddenly, then how did fish get on to dry land?

Are they stupid, or what? Or did they tippy-toe out and dry out: AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!

And if they didn't decide to be sexual instead of asexual, why did one change into the other?

Nope. That didn't evolve, that's for sure.
 

Offline BenV

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Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #74 on: 02/10/2008 12:18:00 »
You used to argue sensibly, but I fear you may have run out of reasonable comments.

Do you acknowledge that mudskippers exist?  So you are aware that some fish are perfectly capable of spending periods of time outside of the water.

You clearly need to read the 'evolution of sexual reproduction' thread again - it was explained perfectly well there, you presented your arguments and others refuted them.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: How does "instinct" evolve?
« Reply #74 on: 02/10/2008 12:18:00 »

 

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