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Author Topic: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?  (Read 40956 times)

Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #25 on: 03/02/2009 15:47:45 »
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It could just as easily be interpreted as me getting my washing back from the laundry and finding that I haven't lost a sock.

It says in clear terms that matter resulted from energy. No 2 ways about it.

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The bible doesn't talk about science, it sticks to allusion, which is so open to interpretation as to make it meaningless in any absolute sense.  Incidentally, both the ancient Greeks and Asian Indians thought that the Earth was spherical.
You must have heard interpretations from guys who don't really know the bible. About Indians, it is common knowledge that they believed in an elephant with a turtle on it's back on whose back was the earth. Even just 500 years ago people were afraid of falling over the edge. And Philosophy was quite hot then.

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The difference between religion and science is that religion is all about belief, and furthermore, it requires a lack of proof; when you have proof you have knowledge and belief becomes redundant.  Science, on the other hand is all about knowledge, and it seeks proof.  Be careful not to confuse knowledge and belief; they are mutually exclusive.
Not true

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The lack of evidence for one.
You exist as proof. Singularity if it existed must have come from somewhere. Isaiah explains where.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #26 on: 03/02/2009 16:02:33 »
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The difference between religion and science is that religion is all about belief, and furthermore, it requires a lack of proof; when you have proof you have knowledge and belief becomes redundant.  Science, on the other hand is all about knowledge, and it seeks proof.  Be careful not to confuse knowledge and belief; they are mutually exclusive.

So if you believed in God and then 1 day he provided absolute proof of his existence, would you necessarily cease to be religious?

Consider this. Little peasant in his cottage in the Middle Ages. He has been told all his life that his country is ruled by a king and believes that to be true even though he has never seen him. Like many other serfs, he is a royalist. Then, one day, the king (uh huh huh) comes a-calling. Maybe he fancies a scoop of ale. But whatever the reason for his visit, there he is in front of little peasant person. Little cottage-dwelling paean now knows the king exists because there he is in little man's favourite chair.

Erm... I've forgotten where I was going with this. I'll come back to it in a while unless someone else can determine the point I was trying to make. Blame the medication!  [xx(]
 

Offline BenV

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #27 on: 03/02/2009 16:40:33 »
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It could just as easily be interpreted as me getting my washing back from the laundry and finding that I haven't lost a sock.

It says in clear terms that matter resulted from energy. No 2 ways about it.
Here's another interpretation from the same words - he had lots of energy (which almost certainly had a different meaning in biblical times) so he was able to make lots of things.  Just because an interpretation (fit around modern knowledge) fits, doesn't mean it was the intended one and doesn't suggest that the bible contains encrypted scientific knowledge.


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The difference between religion and science is that religion is all about belief, and furthermore, it requires a lack of proof; when you have proof you have knowledge and belief becomes redundant.  Science, on the other hand is all about knowledge, and it seeks proof.  Be careful not to confuse knowledge and belief; they are mutually exclusive.
Not true
In what way is it not true?  Which part of that are you dismissing? 

I think there are semantics at issue here - for example, I believe my cat will be at home to greet me, based on my experience and evidence of the past, but it may not come to be true - likewise, I can have faith that my cup of tea will taste nice, based on my previous knowledge of tea.

Doc - I think I know what you are getting at - it's a definitions thing though - technically, once I can confirm that the cat is at home, or my tea is refreshing and good, I no longer believe it, I just know.

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The lack of evidence for one.
You exist as proof. Singularity if it existed must have come from somewhere. Isaiah explains where.
Nope, it doesn't.  You have interpreted it in such a way that allows you to think it did.  Don't forget the bible has been translated, altered and translated many times since it's inception, and so nobody knows the original intent behind the words.

And do you mean LeeE existing is proof of the bible being correct?, or proof that god exists?

Because he is neither.

Here's the nub of it though - there doesn't need to be a why.  We don't know what came before the big bang, and perhaps we never will.  But that gap doesn't need to be filled with a deity.

Doc - I much prefer the Norse creation myth in English, thanks - it's a good one, isn't it?
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #28 on: 03/02/2009 16:40:46 »
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The difference between religion and science is that religion is all about belief, and furthermore, it requires a lack of proof; when you have proof you have knowledge and belief becomes redundant.  Science, on the other hand is all about knowledge, and it seeks proof.  Be careful not to confuse knowledge and belief; they are mutually exclusive.

So if you believed in God and then 1 day he provided absolute proof of his existence, would you necessarily cease to be religious?

Consider this. Little peasant in his cottage in the Middle Ages. He has been told all his life that his country is ruled by a king and believes that to be true even though he has never seen him. Like many other serfs, he is a royalist. Then, one day, the king (uh huh huh) comes a-calling. Maybe he fancies a scoop of ale. But whatever the reason for his visit, there he is in front of little peasant person. Little cottage-dwelling paean now knows the king exists because there he is in little man's favourite chair.

Erm... I've forgotten where I was going with this. I'll come back to it in a while unless someone else can determine the point I was trying to make. Blame the medication!  [xx(]
If you change the scenario to the South American Indians and the arrival of the Spanish, then you have another story; maybe the same ending; I don't know where you're going with your story.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2009 16:42:23 by Vern »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #29 on: 03/02/2009 17:23:44 »
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Doc - I think I know what you are getting at - it's a definitions thing though - technically, once I can confirm that the cat is at home, or my tea is refreshing and good, I no longer believe it, I just know.

Ben - I was addressing the assertion that religion is based on belief not knowledge. If I have absolute proof of God, definitive knowledge of God, can I not still be religious?

Vern - I was trying to construct an analogy about belief, knowledge & religion but lost my way. These tablets make my head spin and I sometimes find it hard to concentrate.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #30 on: 03/02/2009 17:44:04 »
I know what you mean Doc, I get that way even without tablets. :)
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #31 on: 03/02/2009 18:00:56 »
Doctor  Beaver is right.
I recognize this description, therefore it must be true.

Excuse me while i feed my Bear...


*Sails away, his third head happily nodding in the wind *

---

Ah, Polar Bear...

Oh yes.
 

Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #32 on: 04/02/2009 08:17:54 »
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Here's the nub of it though - there doesn't need to be a why.  We don't know what came before the big bang, and perhaps we never will.  But that gap doesn't need to be filled with a deity.
There has to be a why. As scientists, we always ask why. There is a design to everything that we study. That's the only way we can know them. Take the electron, in a normal atom it orbits the nucleus without falling into it. Automatically we ask what question...?
So how come when we know the closest answer to a question may be God. We stop asking 'why?'.

Even to understand the most chaotic of astronomical phenomena such as neutron stars, black holes or quasars we look for organization.
Even the big bang would not have resulted into the universe had it not taken place with the particular precision that is practically impossible without design.

No wonder God asks: "Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
Tell [me], if you do know understanding"
 

Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #33 on: 04/02/2009 08:22:50 »
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I think there are semantics at issue here - for example, I believe my cat will be at home to greet me, based on my experience and evidence of the past, but it may not come to be true - likewise, I can have faith that my cup of tea will taste nice, based on my previous knowledge of tea.

You probably have faith that this is the year 2009. But you have no knowledge that this is about the number of years since Christ's being born on earth.
 

Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #34 on: 04/02/2009 08:40:24 »
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Here's another interpretation from the same words - he had lots of energy (which almost certainly had a different meaning in biblical times)

Different meaning as in what? We as well as the old timers only understand energy from the results of it's interaction with matter. We also don't know what it is.
 

Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #35 on: 04/02/2009 09:43:01 »
But then again, God created humans not for him to be an object of scrutiny. We are too insignificant. So it remains a question of faith. If the bible was a science book then we would discuss in those terms. But it is not.

The best evidence of his existence is all around us. In the precision, foresight, intelligence that went into creation which on earth only man can understand because he was created to have those characteristics to a smaller degree.

Evidence is also in the very fact that something so obvious can escape people who spend years studying it. It's like physical matter has a hidden code that you need only wisdom to understand.

The universe is so perfectly fine tuned that it's precision seems impossible considering that it may have started in a super massive bang. (I'm not arguing the big bang). Actually, even the rate of expansion of the early universe was very highly fine tuned.
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If the Universe had expanded one million millionth part faster, then all the material in the Universe would have dispersed by now. And if it had been a million millionth part slower, then gravitational forces would have caused the Universe to collapse within the first thousand million years or so of its existence. Again, there would have been no long-lived stars and no life

That's a quotation from Sir Alfred Charles Bernard Lovell.

There is even more intricate fine tuning in the four fundamental forces but I won't go into that.
 

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #36 on: 04/02/2009 10:31:16 »
demadone
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The example I gave from Isaiah is not just a 'bit' of information. That is high level physics.
Could you tell me the 'high level Physics' content of that quote?
It just says that the stars look breathtaking and someone very superior must have made them. There is no proof included with that statement, as far as I can see.

If you simply say "I believe", then there is no counter argument. Once you start trying to  bring in 'proof' then you are on to a loser. I have not seen one yet and your arguments are just assertions - not proofs.
 

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #37 on: 04/02/2009 11:01:03 »
Two alternative models:

1. God made everything. Nothing made God. God was always there .

2. The Universe can be regarded as starting at a certain 'time', long ago. Time, itself only 'started' 'when' the Universe formed. There must have been something outside / before our Universe. The Universe exists within itself. The notion of 'outside' implies the ideas of 'before' and 'elsewhere' but it would be less of a problem to refer to it as 'NOT Universe'; that way, you needn't use our particular dimensions, which cannot describe the larger situation adequately.

The first model sustains itself because it puts off the main question of the 'before'. Before God there was God - for ever - without limit. You can't ask the question, in fact.
The second model actually is much harder to consider. It involves 'outside' rather than before and there are dimensions to consider. The outside has no limit.

So they both involve no limits (despite the BBT). One is surprisingly like the model of a parent. Not surprisingly, perhaps.
The other is very, very hard and requires all of the effort to be made by the student. There is no cosy feeling that, however far along the road you go, there is someone to deal with the imponderables.

I'm not ever surprised that people choose the first model. I am not even surprised that they fight tooth and nail to keep it intact. The other way is so scary.

It's such a pity that they try to prove it.





 

Offline BenV

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #38 on: 04/02/2009 11:22:44 »
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Here's the nub of it though - there doesn't need to be a why.  We don't know what came before the big bang, and perhaps we never will.  But that gap doesn't need to be filled with a deity.
There has to be a why. As scientists, we always ask why. There is a design to everything that we study. That's the only way we can know them. Take the electron, in a normal atom it orbits the nucleus without falling into it. Automatically we ask what question...?
So how come when we know the closest answer to a question may be God. We stop asking 'why?'.

Don't most scientists ask 'how'?

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I think there are semantics at issue here - for example, I believe my cat will be at home to greet me, based on my experience and evidence of the past, but it may not come to be true - likewise, I can have faith that my cup of tea will taste nice, based on my previous knowledge of tea.

You probably have faith that this is the year 2009. But you have no knowledge that this is about the number of years since Christ's being born on earth.

Actually, I accept that we call it 2009 for convenience - if I was still living in Thailand, it would be the year 2552.

But then again, God created humans not for him to be an object of scrutiny. We are too insignificant. So it remains a question of faith. If the bible was a science book then we would discuss in those terms. But it is not.

The best evidence of his existence is all around us. In the precision, foresight, intelligence that went into creation which on earth only man can understand because he was created to have those characteristics to a smaller degree.

Evidence is also in the very fact that something so obvious can escape people who spend years studying it. It's like physical matter has a hidden code that you need only wisdom to understand.

The universe is so perfectly fine tuned that it's precision seems impossible considering that it may have started in a super massive bang. (I'm not arguing the big bang). Actually, even the rate of expansion of the early universe was very highly fine tuned.
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If the Universe had expanded one million millionth part faster, then all the material in the Universe would have dispersed by now. And if it had been a million millionth part slower, then gravitational forces would have caused the Universe to collapse within the first thousand million years or so of its existence. Again, there would have been no long-lived stars and no life

That's a quotation from Sir Alfred Charles Bernard Lovell.

There is even more intricate fine tuning in the four fundamental forces but I won't go into that.

This is not evidence for god, it is merely how you seek to validate your belief - why do you feel your belief needs validation?  If you believe in a loving god, and that gives you some comfort, why should you care about what's actually, objectively, 'true'?

I think the only thing we can safely conclude from all of this is that you choose to believe in your god, and I do not.  There is no objective evidence for a god/some gods, and so there is no reason for me to accept the existence of a god as fact.  I do, however, accept that you are welcome to beleive what ever you like, and I hope this brings you happiness.
 

Offline allien

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #39 on: 04/02/2009 12:21:04 »
However we can disprove the bible !

The earth was not created in 7 days. Either that or carbon dating doesent work at all. Humm who do i believe !

Moses well parting the red sea is disputable ! 

God killed the first born children sent wave after wave of plagues, personally Adolf seems quite mild in comparison !

One of my favorites Adam and Eve, two sons, I mean INSEST!

Quote Pen and Teller  " The best way to dismiss the bible as fiction is to read it ! "

Our scientists are more powerfull from God, since they say "universe created in a time less than a second" (from zero to E+25m radius)

Same six days mistake (if it is) repeated in Quran also.

10:Yunus
3- Verily your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne. Regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition?


However we can disprove the bible !

The earth was not created in 7 days. Either that or carbon dating doesent work at all. Humm who do i believe !
One day represents 1000 years

Time is relative, so it could not be said one day is 1000 years or 50000 years unless you have corelation between them according to different observers.

32 - The Adoration
5- He directs the affairs from the heavens to the earth: then it ascends unto Him, on a Day, the measure of which is a thousand years of your reckoning.  (one day = 1000 years)

70 - The Ways Of Ascent
4- The angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:   (one day = 50000 years)

And one important point, you could not measure the thing, if your measuring device exsisted after. So the meaning of day may not be an earth day.
And also meaning of the earth day at the begining could be different from our present day.

« Last Edit: 04/02/2009 12:24:34 by allien »
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #40 on: 04/02/2009 12:38:04 »
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So if you believed in God and then 1 day he provided absolute proof of his existence, would you necessarily cease to be religious?

Would you agree that being religious is basing your understanding of reality upon the existence of a hypothetical God, or pantheon of deities, who through powers and abilities unknown direct everything that happens in that reality? Or perhaps you might define religion as the adoption of the policies, dictated by the religion that you follow, that direct how you should live your life?

In either case, the only difference between religion and say, football or politics, is that football teams and political parties actually exist.  Once a deity is known to exist, then it becomes more like football or politics, except that for most religions there's only one team to support, or party to vote for.

Regarding your little peasant sitting in his hovel; while he may not have seen him first-hand before, even today, and with a total population that's likely to be many times greater than in your example, the six degrees of separation is still largely thought to hold true so although he might not have seen the king, he wouldn't need to go through many links before he met someone else who had.  This doesn't apply to deities though.
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #41 on: 04/02/2009 13:12:23 »
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Incidentally, both the ancient Greeks and Asian Indians thought that the Earth was spherical.

You must have heard interpretations from guys who don't really know the bible. About Indians, it is common knowledge that they believed in an elephant with a turtle on it's back on whose back was the earth. Even just 500 years ago people were afraid of falling over the edge. And Philosophy was quite hot then.

It is clear to me that you've done nothing to check the veracity of what I've said.  If you had done so you would have been able to find out for yourself that the "guys who don't really know the bible" and who think that the ancient Greeks and Indians were aware that the Earth is round are the archaeologists who have found the evidence for it.  Similarly, claiming that it is "common knowledge" and therefore an established fact beyond doubt, that Indians believed in the turtle scenario just shows that you don't even want to find out whether it's true or not, just as a minority of people today still persist in believing in the existence of a deity for which there is no evidence, let alone proof.  And are you really claiming that everyone thought that the Earth was flat 500 years ago?  Once again, there's clear evidence to show otherwise.

Incidentally, I have read the Christian bible, both the old and new bits but I prefer The Lord of the Rings; it has a better plot, believable characters and is more plausible.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #42 on: 04/02/2009 13:24:22 »
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So if you believed in God and then 1 day he provided absolute proof of his existence, would you necessarily cease to be religious?

Would you agree that being religious is basing your understanding of reality upon the existence of a hypothetical God, or pantheon of deities, who through powers and abilities unknown direct everything that happens in that reality?

I would alter that slightly to read "...hypothetical, or proven God..."

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Or perhaps you might define religion as the adoption of the policies, dictated by the religion that you follow, that direct how you should live your life?

Religions do indeed dictate how you should live your life.

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In either case, the only difference between religion and say, football or politics, is that football teams and political parties actually exist.  Once a deity is known to exist, then it becomes more like football or politics, except that for most religions there's only one team to support, or party to vote for.

But would that stop you being religious? Would you not adopt the view that your religion had been proven to be correct?

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Regarding your little peasant sitting in his hovel; while he may not have seen him first-hand before, even today, and with a total population that's likely to be many times greater than in your example, the six degrees of separation is still largely thought to hold true so although he might not have seen the king, he wouldn't need to go through many links before he met someone else who had.  This doesn't apply to deities though.

Yes, it does apply to deities. Throughout history many people have claimed to have seen or communed with dieties. But we only have their word for it in the same way the peasant would have to accept the veracity of someone saying he had seen the monarch.

In fact the majority of the Old Testament and the Koran were written by men who claimed to have been told what they wrote either directly by a diety or by one of his messengers.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2009 13:27:09 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #43 on: 04/02/2009 14:13:13 »
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But would that stop you being religious?

I think it would change the meaning of religion.  Either way, something would change as a consequence.

Regarding the peasant: you can't meet deities if they don't exist.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #44 on: 04/02/2009 14:26:12 »
When I was about 10 years old I noticed that people generally accepted the religion that prevailed where they lived. Different societies had different religions. At first I thought that only one of those could be correct. That meant that most of them must be incorrect. Then it came to me. All of them are incorrect.

So that left me with: Maybe there is a deity out there that made everything happen. But if there is, no one has correctly described just exactly how that deity worked it all out. The least accurate of the attempts seem to be the various accounts of creation.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2009 14:28:11 by Vern »
 

Offline demadone

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #45 on: 04/02/2009 14:47:30 »
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Religions do indeed dictate how you should live your life.
Not all religions teach the same thing so it would be unfair to generalize.

The bible says it is wrong to sleep with a woman/man you are not married to. But you will probably say it is just dictation. But who makes such rules? Don't say it is man because the instinct is break those barriers. What about murder being wrong? Survival of the fittest makes that the easier way out.

I know that the one who made those rules also made conscience so we know when we are going wrong. There is no way that could come about through evolution.

I'm not out to convince you, but just to share my thoughts.

Does anyone know how magic works if there is no spiritual realm? Not all of it is tricks. A good example is floating a person in air. Actually it's easier to see evidence of the devil than that of God, because God would never make himself obvious.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #46 on: 04/02/2009 15:06:13 »
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Religions do indeed dictate how you should live your life.
Not all religions teach the same thing so it would be unfair to generalize.


They don't all teach the same thing, but they do all state how one should live one's life.

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The bible says it is wrong to sleep with a woman/man you are not married to. But you will probably say it is just dictation. But who makes such rules? Don't say it is man because the instinct is break those barriers. What about murder being wrong? Survival of the fittest makes that the easier way out.

Adam and Eve weren't married and they had 2 sons.

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I know that the one who made those rules also made conscience so we know when we are going wrong. There is no way that could come about through evolution.

No, you dno't know that, you believe it to be so. Conscience came about as a result of rules. WIthout rules there would be no need for conscience. You can put that down to societal evolution.

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Does anyone know how magic works if there is no spiritual realm?

No-one knows.

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Actually it's easier to see evidence of the devil than that of God, because God would never make himself obvious.

Why wouldn't he? He wants people to worship him so wouldn't it make more sense to show himself and give a demonstratin of his power?

The problem I have with religious people is the constant "It has to be this" or "There is no other way". The thing is it doesn't have to be this and there are other ways; ways that have been scientifically proven. But you refuse to accept that fact. Biblical words are re-interpreted in the light of scientific advances and the religious fraternity say that proves God exists. No, it doesn't. It just proves that the original wording was ambiguous and can mean many different things - or nothing at all.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #47 on: 04/02/2009 15:26:15 »
Quote from: demadone
Does anyone know how magic works if there is no spiritual realm? Not all of it is tricks. A good example is floating a person in air. Actually it's easier to see evidence of the devil than that of God, because God would never make himself obvious.
Wow ! I did not even know that magic is real. Shows how much I know :)
 

Offline Don_1

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #48 on: 04/02/2009 15:35:33 »
It's quite strange to think that so many people say 'I have faith in God'

If a complete stranger told you to have faith in the ancient Egyptian God 'Amun Ra', or the Viking God 'Odin', or the ancient Greek God 'Zeus', would you?

No.

Yet a complete stranger tells you to have faith in Jehova, Allah or whatever you want to call him, and you do. Is this simply because his name is Abraham?

You do not have faith in 'God', you have faith in Abraham. So would you have faith in him if he told you to have faith in 'Jupiter' King of the Roman Gods?
 

Offline dentstudent

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Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #49 on: 04/02/2009 15:48:37 »
Quite so Don. They have atheistic pursuits towards Odin, Thor, Ra, Isis, Anubis; I just choose to go one step further. They deny the existence of 99.999% of all other "gods", so why stop at the last step?
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Is there any mathematical proof of the existence of God?
« Reply #49 on: 04/02/2009 15:48:37 »

 

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