The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Is perpetual motion impossible?  (Read 59464 times)

Offline Don_1

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6890
  • Thanked: 7 times
  • A stupid comment for every occasion.
    • View Profile
    • Knight Light Haulage
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« on: 09/09/2008 11:02:44 »
Is perpetual motion a physical impossibility?
« Last Edit: 11/09/2008 23:23:53 by chris »


 

blakestyger

  • Guest
Re: Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #1 on: 09/09/2008 11:42:59 »
Yes - everything has to be paid for!
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #2 on: 12/11/2008 01:07:09 »
Is perpetual motion a physical impossibility?

 No due to impossibilities are the limitation of the imagination, and the freedom of the mind is the release of our limitations. That is the reason we have progressed as far as we have. So never say never. [8D]
 

Offline dentstudent

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3146
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #3 on: 12/11/2008 08:15:41 »
Is perpetual motion a physical impossibility?

 No due to impossibilities are the limitation of the imagination, and the freedom of the mind is the release of our limitations. That is the reason we have progressed as far as we have. So never say never. [8D]

PM is completely impossible. Period. Imagination has nothing to do with it.
 

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1503
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #4 on: 12/11/2008 08:40:35 »
It's definitely possible, provided there is a perpetual energy source...

...but I guess that's not really what you mean.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 08:45:11 by BenV »
 

Offline dentstudent

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3146
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #5 on: 12/11/2008 08:50:27 »
It's definitely possible, provided there is a perpetual energy source...

...but I guess that's not really what you mean.

Indeed.

PM deals with a closed system. With a perpetual energy source, the system is not closed, and so falls outside the scope of PM.
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #6 on: 12/11/2008 13:30:07 »



PM is completely impossible. Period. Imagination has nothing to do with it.
dentstudent

That is the same argument for flight in the past. Thus the limitation.

 This is how it can be done. "Force reaction manipulation" Gravity is a force and it has reactions to everything. You have to ask and also pay attention on how it reacts to each and everything in nature and you may see how it can be manipulated. Just that simple in words, but not so in understanding. This is due to disbelief because of our teachings. This is not to knock our teachings for without our teachings we would still be walking. But we should never use our teachings as absolutes, for then it tends to be treated as a religion.


 

Offline dentstudent

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3146
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #7 on: 12/11/2008 13:33:30 »



PM is completely impossible. Period. Imagination has nothing to do with it.
dentstudent

That is the same argument for flight in the past. Thus the limitation.

 

Not really - flight didn't require the re-writing of all laws of physics and maths known to man.
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #8 on: 12/11/2008 13:45:55 »

Not really - flight didn't require the re-writing of all laws of physics and maths known to man.

No, but there was a newer understanding of our physical laws, and of course due to other discoveries Quantum theory came into existence to correct the problems with laws of physics as well. Our understanding of the laws of physics is the first to change, yet may not truly change the laws at all. Perpetual motion may turn out to be just another change in our understanding.
 

Offline dentstudent

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3146
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #9 on: 12/11/2008 14:16:14 »
Ah, yes, quantum theory. It's always a big help.

I know nothing of QT, so I'm not going to comment on it. I'm sure that there are others who are well-capable of commenting on this though...

There are various immutable laws such as the first and second laws of thermodynamics which are always violated in apparent PM machines. It is not possible to create energy from nothing, and it is not possible to transfer energy from one source to another in a closed system without loss.

How do you propose to use gravity in your PM machine?
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #10 on: 12/11/2008 14:33:56 »

How do you propose to use gravity in your PM machine?


 A simple collection of natural effects, using leverage control of natural movement. Thus will not break the laws of physics, but will add a new understanding. When you add the laws of leverage to a repeating movement. You only have to overcome the laws of balance. The term of law in the the physical world, is only an understanding of what we know to be true at the time.

Here is someone to consider when talking about the laws of physics.
__________________________________________________________________

“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 14:38:58 by AB Hammer »
 

Offline dentstudent

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3146
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #11 on: 12/11/2008 14:42:01 »
You "only" have to overcome the laws of balance, then?

We'll be millionaires by Christmas!

Which natural effects, what levers and what natural movement? And which understanding? And whose?

And when?
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #12 on: 12/11/2008 15:39:19 »
You "only" have to overcome the laws of balance, then?

We'll be millionaires by Christmas!

Which natural effects, what levers and what natural movement? And which understanding? And whose?

And when?

 All you have to do is keep it unbalanced, and to tell you how now, would be showing before I and those I work with are ready. As for quick rich thoughts, they are a distraction to the goal and are to be avoided. Once done the real work begins and is not a time to sit on your laurels.  ;)
 

lyner

  • Guest
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #13 on: 12/11/2008 19:10:30 »
To 'keep it unbalanced' would need the continual input of energy in some form. That's not perpetual motion, it's a normal 'machine'.
There is no process which transfers energy and which does not use energy up.
The nearest things to perpetual motion is superconductivity and planetary orbits around long dead stars where there is no trace of residual atmosphere in the system. You can't get energy out of either of those without slowing them down.

 Put your money where your mouth is and build one.
Better still, send the money to charity; at least it will do some good that way.

There is no point in being a heroic figure in the face of an unbending Science Establishment. Just learn about the problem in depth and you will see that it is a proverbial bummer.
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #14 on: 12/11/2008 20:37:55 »
sophiecentaur


 A clever arrangement of weights and levers that react to the spin to keep off balance. Each reaction inside the wheel falls with in the boundaries of known physics. But inside the wheel they become repetitive by there position, which keeps the the wheel from balancing out. From this description, how can you claim it to be breaking any laws of physics?

I do put my money where my mouth is, and I don't ask for money from others either. I am with an honest belief of possibilities only and I like it as a hobby.

You said an unbending Science Establishment. All I can say is that is sad, for only an open mind can progress.
 

lyner

  • Guest
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #15 on: 12/11/2008 22:31:51 »
You can believe what you like but can you deliver?
No one else ever has.
There are some very well established and fundamental laws which you would have to 'disprove' if your system were really to work.
Just one small detail - you have something spinning? Is there no friction on the bearings? The motor industry would like some of those.
Your description contains so little detail that it is impossible to point out the flaws - apart from the friction.
Greater minds than your have tried and failed - before the great minds who followed came to the conclusion involving the fundamental reasons why it can't work.
Send us a picture of it working.

Quote
All I can say is that is sad, for only an open mind can progress
Then you must open yours to the knowledge of others.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 22:36:25 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline Flyberius

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #16 on: 12/11/2008 22:45:54 »
Does any of what he said make sense?

Its bananas.

PS.

And there are open minds out there, and they do progress. Your oblivious to the huge scientific progression in the last 100 years and the fact that rate of progression is growing. I read somewhere in that we could use crazy dimensional mirrors to get almost perpetual energy but that is just a "what if?" scenario from what I could tell. In fact it was in new scientist. So it was probably bs.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 22:54:17 by Flyberius »
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #17 on: 12/11/2008 23:54:56 »
Greetings Flyberius

 Sorry but it was sophiecentaur who said (unbending Science Establishment) which can be translated to closed minded. and that is how I took it.

 This is my question for anybody who can answer it.
If you have devices that react to all physical laws as expected, and they are added together and they have a reaction of perpetuation these actions by there positioning of rotation. How can this overall device be breaking any physical laws?

And this I will post again and as often as I may have to.
___________________________________________________________
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
 

lyner

  • Guest
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #18 on: 13/11/2008 17:06:21 »
My 'unbending establishment' phrase was meant to be ironic! I don't think it is but I was replying to a sentiment which implied that someone might feel they were battling against one.

Quote
If you have devices that react to all physical laws as expected, and they are added together and they have a reaction of perpetuation these actions by there positioning of rotation. How can this overall device be breaking any physical laws?
I can guarantee that, if you look at the device in detail (scrupulous detail - not just advertiser's blurb) you will find the flaw. There will be no conflict with the Physical Laws and it just won't work as the guy claims it will.
I get the impression that you are not the inventor of this system, ABH, so, despite having a romantic leaning towards the notion, you don't really know how it is supposed to work.
I can appreciate how attractive it may sound but, like death and taxes, entropy is always with us and  increasing all the time.

I should be very surprised if I, or another contributor, couldn't spot the flaw if the details were published. I doubt 'they' would risk publishing details but the reason they would give would be 'commercial' not the real 'smoke and mirrors' and 'we want your money' reason. They are lying.

With luck, they will take me to court and we can all hear the evidence.
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #19 on: 13/11/2008 18:00:38 »
sophiecentaur

Quote

My 'unbending establishment' phrase was meant to be ironic! I don't think it is but I was replying to a sentiment which implied that someone might feel they were battling against one.

 That is a fair description.

 But you are wrong, I am the inventor, but I also have joint projects with others as well. All and all it looks like 3 possible runners 2 are solely mine and the other belongs to our group which will remain unnamed. The only reason I am on the net is I am recovering from namoneya and I can't finish my armour work which has to be done before I can finish my wheels. My living come first. But my confidence is high for all my test that I do before building I am getting a 20% to 25% gain in positive overbalance. After building 30+ wheels and designing around 400 wheels. I have a very good idea what to expect. I have had 3 near runners and one nearly took off my thumb nail while I was trying to adjust the stand. It was tapping the side of it as it was spinning about 60rpm at the time. It had only a slight slowing which was hard to detect by eye. But that one was still a non runner.


 

lyner

  • Guest
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #20 on: 13/11/2008 18:56:26 »
Quote
But you are wrong, I am the inventor
My apologies.
So it must be the romance that attracts you.
May I ask what bearings your wheels will be rotating on? Where will the energy come from to overcome the friction?
'Hard to detect by eye' is infinitely (I mean that literally)  far from 'perpetual'.
You must appreciate that every wheel in your machine that is turning must be working against friction - transferring Energy. This energy has to come from somewhere. This can only be in the form of Kinetic Energy of the movement in the device. Where else?
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #21 on: 13/11/2008 21:07:12 »
When people try for perpetual motion, All to often they try to make these little devices using ounces instead of pounds, Even if they have a good idea the friction of the bearing or simple poor construction sometimes makes it where they won't even get a reaction and they give up. Good construction is important, as well as good bearings. The use of magnetic bearings and vacuum chambers are not necessary, they are extreme.
 Yes friction is a concern at all times. Just think a 100 lb of shifting weight in a wheel with 20% advantage. This means continuous shifting 10 lbs of falling energy effect. This will be more than enough to overcome any friction you can imagine with excess energy movement. Kinetic energy is your friend in this game. Here is a kinetic overbalance test that I posted on youtube.


Without the overbalance the wheel once spun (even if you spun it hard) you could not get more than 2 minutes run time, but with the overbalance shown as spun would run for close to 6 minutes. This is one of many test that I do preparing for working on a wheel.

You stated
Quote
So it must be the romance that attracts you.

I was challenged by my neighbor when he learned that I have never failed in figuring out any mechanical problem. I didn't have to take the challenge but I looked into it for about a week and took the challenge. Besides I built a magnet wheel back in 1974 for a school project. It jerked around for a 1 1/2 days before it tore out the middle. 

Quote
You must appreciate that every wheel in your machine that is turning must be working against friction - transferring Energy. This energy has to come from somewhere. This can only be in the form of Kinetic Energy of the movement in the device. Where else?

But I never said wheels in it, there are leavers weights ect. But you are correct that every movement is a friction, so you have to overcome it, it is expected.
 Now to know if you truly have a runner by eye. It will speed up and depending on the design without a load added it can then start to serge due to overcoming the inner shifting speeds. Not to mention most likely will start on its own.

I hope this answers you questions.

Alan
 
 
 

lyner

  • Guest
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #22 on: 13/11/2008 21:38:29 »
Anything that falls needs to be raised up again, I expect. Where will the extra energy come from after the friction has taken some away?

one and a half days is good for your machine but 'perpetual'?
that includes one and a half weeks, one and a half months, one and a half . . . .
 

Offline AB Hammer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #23 on: 13/11/2008 23:44:28 »
sophiecentaur
Quote
Anything that falls needs to be raised up again, I expect. Where will the extra energy come from after the friction has taken some away?

Well that is the trick isn't it. ;D

Quote
one and a half days is good for your machine but 'perpetual'?
that includes one and a half weeks, one and a half months, one and a half . . . .

I agree, at least until it breaks down (due to wear and tear),or something or someone stops it.
 

lyner

  • Guest
Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #24 on: 14/11/2008 00:09:26 »
Quote
Well that is the trick isn't it
The real world doesn't work with tricks.
Without an energy source it will slow down. No question.
Would you like a small wager - say $500?
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #24 on: 14/11/2008 00:09:26 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums