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Author Topic: Is perpetual motion impossible?  (Read 59521 times)

Offline Bored chemist

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #100 on: 23/11/2008 19:14:07 »
It is not always the quest but, it is what you learn from the quest. Many many inventions have come from this quest that have helped change the world or had lead to others that have. I myself have 4 inventions that have come from this quest. One I am presenting for contract with the US military, but it has many other uses as well. (it is not a weapon)

 PS Bored chemist
That is a blanket answer. You didn't truly answer the question.

 
I gave a blanket answer because it's right. The details don't matter; perpetual motion doesn't work.
You said "if this ran forever would it be perpetual motion?"
Well, yes, it would - of course. So what? Since it won't run forever...
It's like saying "if it were driven by magic inexhaustible pink unicorns it would run forever". Could be- who cares- there aren't any pink unicorns.

BTW, the US military have done some monumentally stupid things in their time but even they are not gullible enough to buy a perpetual motion machine.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #101 on: 23/11/2008 20:47:29 »

BTW, the US military have done some monumentally stupid things in their time but even they are not gullible enough to buy a perpetual motion machine.

LMAO Talk about misdirection. I said it was another invention not a perpetual the idea came from my hobby.
BTW The perpetual machine I'm building is the machine design I posted, and you won't see it until all is finished. [8D]

sophiecentaur
That video was just for everyone's entertainment. I can also show you a steel rod taking the steel ball from the magnets in similar manner. I have also balanced 5 steel balls on the edge of the steel rod and lifted them 3 inches from the magnet as well. Again it is just a fun effect for entertainment. But the effect could be useful for someone working on a magnet wheel.
« Last Edit: 23/11/2008 20:49:31 by AB Hammer »
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #102 on: 23/11/2008 22:45:24 »
And I can play God Save The Queen on a banjo. It's quite irrelevant to PM.

 

Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #103 on: 24/11/2008 07:25:33 »
Bored chemist: ...Since it won't work (due to friction etc),...

Satellites don't suffer friction in space but the orbit drops out because of the requirement for gravity.
Perhaps using magnets whirling each other for attraction to keep them in place outside a gravitational field could produce the alike to the extent that it finally becomes the decay by half life of the substances used before it is geometrically disrupted.
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #104 on: 24/11/2008 09:09:22 »
Space is not free of friction (if you define the term wider than solid against solid). Certainly, satellites are close enough to be very much influenced by drag.
 

Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #105 on: 24/11/2008 09:44:29 »
Satellites , effectively centrifical drag.
So let's move out into deep space and perhaps with these theoretical magnets orbiting each and other they will never overcome each other by oscillatorally re-supplying the energy they were given by either repulsion or attraction.
Perhaps the only loss could be made to be temporary but only while the other has that energy.
 

lyner

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« Reply #106 on: 24/11/2008 10:25:39 »
Quote
effectively centrifical drag
??? what's that?
 

Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #107 on: 24/11/2008 12:05:49 »
Satellites to orbit require centrifical force to stay up there and orbiting earth or they must sit further out in space in non orbit.
Gravity(the centrifical drag so to speak) holds them in orbit around the earth , to orbit that requires a small shove in the right direction to traverse their own orbit circumfrence relating being over the same area in sync with the earths rotation.
 

Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #108 on: 24/11/2008 12:11:03 »
Centrifugal?
 

Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #109 on: 24/11/2008 12:18:34 »
All right centrifugal drag as in ultra centrifuge.
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #110 on: 24/11/2008 13:16:37 »
What does that involve - i.e. forces and mechanism?
 

Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #111 on: 24/11/2008 13:52:35 »
Do you know how centrifugal force(e.g. measurement of torque in Newtons) operates and that gravity is an accelerative(not constant speed) force, and that the earths axis tilts? [if you want further answer to that].
 

lyner

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« Reply #112 on: 24/11/2008 15:45:40 »
But none of those involve energy transfer. The issue of perpetual or non-perpetual motion depends upon energy loss - not forces.
And, whilst you are trying to be precise, the Speed of a satellite can be constant under gravitational acceleration. In a circular orbit, it is the Velocity which constantly changes- velocity being speed and direction.
Also, Torque is measured in Newton Metres, not Newtons (the unit of force).
If you want to explain things properly you need to be a bit more rigorous.
Good Science has to be very fussy.
 

Offline Pumblechook

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #113 on: 24/11/2008 16:08:19 »
Somebody keep wittering on about making an electric motor which is 'thoudands' of times more efficient than current motors????
 

Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #114 on: 24/11/2008 16:20:37 »
Just assuming a force such as gravity would cause some interference that could be eliminated by taking it beyond such a field.
The cited culprit against perpetual motion appears so far to be friction(mentioned by someone previously in the thread).
The only explanation for gravity appears to be mass. The more mass, the more gravity, so out in space away from all the usual fields perhaps the existent objects used for perpetual motion may themselves have a problem of themselves.
To counter against friction, magnetic devices have been used to prevent contact with a track in laboratories and the moved object balanced and directed by the repulsion field.
not: i was just saying gravity is not measured as a constant speed, its an acceleration e.g. the result of a division of a distance increment that again is divided by another denominator.
 

Offline Bikerman

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #115 on: 24/11/2008 16:45:52 »
The objection to PM is summarised by the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.
1st law essentially says that energy can neither be created or destroyed
2nd law essentially says that heat flows from hotter to cooler (often summarised as 'entropy increases')

Any system of PM must achieve 'over-unity' - ie you get more out than you put in. That is impossible according to the above laws.
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #116 on: 24/11/2008 17:12:07 »
Quote
Just assuming a force such as gravity would cause some interference that could be eliminated by taking it beyond such a field.
Beyond the range of the inverse square law, do you mean. A bit beyond the Moon's orbit, or beyond Pluto or outside our Galaxy?
1/x2 never gets to zero, however big you choose to make x.
In any case, Gravity doesn't 'use up' energy. It is a conservative field and I don't mean David Cameron's garden. So getting away from it is no help at all.

Bikerman: I am sorry. You have clearly missed the rules of this particular thread. You have made a huge mistake by introducing fact, reason and Science in a Post. You can guarantee it will be ignored in this fantasy land.

Let's assume that Perpetual Motion is possible ---- then Perpetual Motion is possible. QED

Yes, but just say it was.          AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH
 

Offline Bikerman

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #117 on: 24/11/2008 17:18:52 »
Let's assume that Perpetual Motion is possible ---- then Perpetual Motion is possible. QED

Yes, but just say it was.          AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH

LOL...nobody told me it was the tautology special...I though it was happy hour  :D
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #118 on: 24/11/2008 17:27:33 »
Hic  :)

Laws?  SCHMAWS!
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #119 on: 24/11/2008 18:56:22 »
The objection to PM is summarised by the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.
1st law essentially says that energy can neither be created or destroyed
2nd law essentially says that heat flows from hotter to cooler (often summarised as 'entropy increases')

Any system of PM must achieve 'over-unity' - ie you get more out than you put in. That is impossible according to the above laws.

“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #120 on: 24/11/2008 20:41:51 »
If we based our whole lives on that statement there would be no point in getting up in the morning.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #121 on: 24/11/2008 22:08:41 »
If we based our whole lives on that statement there would be no point in getting up in the morning.

 LOL No, it is still worth getting up in the morning. The so called laws have served us well and should never be taken lightly. But we shouldn't hold on to them like a religion either for they are only as good as we have advanced so far. Like I have new ideas of magnetism, but I have allot to study before I try to say anything. But experiments are a must to check out hypothesis of each idea. That is what science is, to learn and prove what is learned. So when I show a perpetual wheel, it will be true. But if I am mistaken and can not prove it, then I will have still enjoyed my hobby.   
 

Offline Bikerman

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #122 on: 24/11/2008 22:42:54 »
Err, the 'so-called' laws have a sound theoretical basis and have been tested empirically more times than you can shake a stick at. On the basis that no physical law can ever be proved (induction..cf Karl Popper) then, of course, you can posit that one day we may discover they are wrong. There is absolutely no reason, however, to believe that the laws of thermodynamics ARE wrong, and a huge amount of data and theory supports the idea that they are correct.

Planck was talking at a time of fundamental discovery. The new quantum theory challenged traditional 'classical' physics and, of course, he was keen to point out that the classical laws were not set in stone - it was already apparent that the Thompson and Rutherford models of the atom were erroneous (cf the ultraviolet catastrophe)
That does not really apply with the laws of thermodynamics. There is nothing in modern physics that seems to indicate that thermodynamic laws are on shaky ground.
« Last Edit: 24/11/2008 23:23:37 by Bikerman »
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #123 on: 25/11/2008 02:35:35 »
Greetings Bikerman

 I see you are well versed. Very good for you might be able to see what I have truly been saying.
Each action in a wheel system works by angle gravity and direction. Also each action overbalances a wheel. Now this is the basic theory for a perpetual wheel. Now in thousands of attempt that have been done they would move and then balance before another action can take place. This is an obvious and typical problem and used to show the impossibility of perpetual motion.
 Now lets take a system where each typical movement and expected but added together. movement reaction to another typical movement reaction, which react to another typical movement reaction creating a continuous overbalance to keep spinning and keep shifting until it breaks or something from the outside stops it.
 Each and every action by itself lays within the known laws of physics. But together since they react to each other setting them in motion perpetuating the reactions in a closed system. Now how can that break the laws of physics? Logic say it shouldn't but the physicist says it does. Under these circumstances if proven a new understanding will have to occur, no matter how hard the physicist says no.
 
 So under what I wrote here. How can you say it breaks the laws of physics?
« Last Edit: 25/11/2008 02:38:13 by AB Hammer »
 

Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #124 on: 25/11/2008 07:36:59 »
The objection to PM is summarised by the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.
1st law essentially says that energy can neither be created or destroyed
2nd law essentially says that heat flows from hotter to cooler (often summarised as 'entropy increases')

Any system of PM must achieve 'over-unity' - ie you get more out than you put in. That is impossible according to the above laws.

“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947

Bikerman - This is the other default zone - qoute someone about something. This therefore makes your case valid. Something of a logical fallacy, I believe.
 

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #124 on: 25/11/2008 07:36:59 »

 

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