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Author Topic: Is perpetual motion impossible?  (Read 59463 times)

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #25 on: 14/11/2008 00:27:28 »
sophiecentaur

LOL $500? Pounds or US dollars? I will have to check on legalities, as well as the rules on the forum before I agree. I am finding this interesting for I don't even go to casinos.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #26 on: 14/11/2008 02:50:59 »
sophiecentaur

I do believe a wager is for gain or loss so it falls into this category. So sorry but I must decline.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #27 on: 14/11/2008 08:28:23 »
I would say yes, perpetual motion is a distinct possibility. Evidence the perpetual life on earth, organic machinery appears to have discovered it’s mechanism.

The perpetual water cycle.

The perpetual Atlantic conveyor system.

The perpetual evolution of the planets.

The perpetual motion of the planets and stars.

The human heart. Everyone an engine and yet the person that has one beating in their chest does not believe in perpetual motion.

One could argue that they will eventually transform into another body or decay into the universe. Which is arguably perpetual stability and therefore does not disprove perpetual motion as a possibility.
 

Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #28 on: 14/11/2008 08:46:55 »
Andrew. PM has to be a closed system to be truly perpetual. Part of the water cycle is driven by the sun – this is not perpetual – the sun will “die” and also it is not a closed system. The Atlantic conveyor system is driven partly by the sun, so again is not perpetual. I’m not sure what you mean by the perpetual evolution of the planets, but evolution is not a “force” and so I think falls outside the argument. The “perpetual” movement of stars and planets – there are many forces still acting on them and are not part of a closed system. The human heart stops beating when you’re dead. That is not perpetual. It is also supplied by energy for your entire lifetime, and so is not a closed system.

I don’t “believe” in PM in the same way that I don’t “believe” in god (and I hope that that does not reduce this thread to yet another "Is there a god" conversation). There is no evidence at all for the existence of either. If someone produced something that could not be explained by current laws, then of course it would be worthy of a great deal of attention, but “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” (Carl Sagan). We're waiting......
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #29 on: 14/11/2008 12:58:09 »
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I do believe a wager is for gain or loss so it falls into this category. So sorry but I must decline.
Yes of course. A wager is not suited to the context of a Forum like this. But my point was that I WOULD bet any money.

AKF: The definition of Perpetual, in this context, at least,  is 'for ever' and with no other contributions.
Three score years and ten, for a heart is far from perpetual. Neither are the other examples you give.
As I said earlier "A long time is not for ever"
All the systems you refer to (plus ABH's) involve energy loss or energy input so they are not perpetual. You know perfectly well that the systems you quote 'use' energy, either from the Sun, by losing Potential Energy or from nuclear reactions.
Introducing diversions from the main point may be fun but it doesn't really advance the argument, does it? (We've been here before).
Why not read about the Perpetual Motion Issue, throughout the ages? I'm sure Google will help.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #30 on: 14/11/2008 14:35:34 »
Ah yes sophiecentaur

 We now get into the intellectual phase now.
1. Is the machine perpetual? or is the motion perpetual?
2. When something is destroyed, is it truly destroyed or just changed?

 Every thing goes through a change, which means change is perpetual. Now the wear and tear of a devices which can cause a change in a motion which can make a device fail. But the original motion design that is guided by the device is perpetual and will remain perpetual until the material changes. So you have to look at it as, if there is no change in the device the motion is and will remain perpetual. Thus once the machine is built, perpetual motion is proved.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #31 on: 14/11/2008 14:40:10 »
Have the rules changed for PM over the many years it has been debated? Right from the beginning did the people postulating it state that the machine must be indestructible, in a closed unit and use no power source whatsoever?
Does a perpetual Motion machine have to run to infinity in order to qualify? If so who will be around to measure it? And who stated the rules and when?

A human heart expires, another heart is born, the human engine self perpetuates. Just as a sun grows cold and another sun ignites.

The rules remind me of a boxer, who is never allowed to make contact with his opponent, can’t look at him or converse with him, must not breath on him or even be in the same room as him yet must some how find a way to win the fight.

Take away the rules and let the fight begin.



 

Offline rosy

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« Reply #32 on: 14/11/2008 15:39:06 »
Andrew:
Yes. The definition of "perpetual motion" conventionally considered when asserting that "perpetual motion is not possible" is that it must be a system which continues to move forever without adding energy to the system and which therefore must either (a) have no frictional losses at all or (b) must be generating energy internally from nowhere. Since the question was "Is perpetual motion impossible" it is reasonable to assume that this is the definition under discussion here.

It's worth noting that any perpetual motion machine someone claims to have made (and it happens an awful lot) is almost always also a "free energy machine", from which energy can be extracted to "power whole cities" and so on ad tedium. This is always a class (b) machine since the extraction of energy from the system means that frictionlessness is not enough.

AB Hammer seems to be describing a machine which wears out. Wearing out necessarily implies friction and so fricitonal losses of energy. So (a) doesn't apply. Thus such a machine must generate energy out of nowhere. Requires re-writing all the scientific models as we understand them (no, really, all of them) but hey, this is science and if the model's wrong we refine it until it fits the new data. However... since the evidence for the rest of the consequences of thermodynamics stacks up pretty well I'm not going to go out of my way to find out more about any machine that claims perpetual motion.
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #33 on: 14/11/2008 15:43:03 »
Precisely, AKF.
The rules make it impossible to make one.
It would be indestructible, of course, it could not wear out - no friction - and would not be damaged by any external influence - no energy input.
The problem is that people try to get around the rules without knowing the are doing so.
Your particular ideas are just not in the 'set' which is 'perpetual motion machines'.

rosy beat me to the post.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #34 on: 14/11/2008 16:03:08 »
sophiecentaur

 Maybe you should say a God is impossible and you can not build a God. For a God would be perpetual.

 Maybe a perpetual motion machine that runs on gravity should be called a force to energy converter. Which may very well be the best description.IMO

 Or how about this an over unity friction motor of extrema efficiency.

 Of course we can say that all is perpetual for you can not destroy energy, it can only change. So that would make it perpetual as well.

This is probably one reason why, Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947 made this statment.

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“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”



 
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #35 on: 14/11/2008 16:25:08 »
Is anyone's 'god' a machine?

"running on gravity" implies transfer of energy. To use the gravity, something has to fall through a distance.
Work done = force times distance
That's an energy input.

Do you have a tube of negative friction grease, then?

Your other statements don't refer to Perpetually Moving Machines, one of which you are claiming to be constructing.  Just stick to the one issue at a time and astound us all with a perpetual machine in the accepted sense of the word.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #36 on: 14/11/2008 16:38:21 »

"running on gravity" implies transfer of energy. To use the gravity, something has to fall through a distance.
Work done = force times distance
That's an energy input.


Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.

This is the reason that I say it will break no so called laws of physics but a need for a newer understanding.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #37 on: 14/11/2008 18:44:39 »
For the record. I will believe in a PM machine when I see one for myself.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #38 on: 14/11/2008 22:02:39 »
For the record. I will believe in a PM machine when I see one for myself.

 That is a proper attitude for this case, but would the media be close enough for you?

This is what science wants as proof.

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perpetual motion
a system wherein the item in question consumes and outputs at least 100% of its energy constantly, sustaining no net loss as a result of the laws of thermodynamics. 
From; The Language of Science - Dictionary and Research Guide

__________________________________________

Impossible is more a hallmark of pseudoscience than of true science.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #39 on: 15/11/2008 08:57:43 »
Alan, the media would never be proof for me, their track record is somewhat less than perfect. I would have to see it and understand it completely before accepting it. This is my nature; I do not believe anything until completely satisfied there is no other logical explanation. Theories like the Big Bang, God. Black Holes and the like fall into the same un-proven category. But are safer for the propagators.

Who can go out there and prove them one way or another? Most are just unsubstantiated guesswork. Arguing that the maths adds up is no defence either when the parameters the maths are based on are guesswork. Imagine trying to calculate the age of the universe, how arrogant can we become one wonders? Who do we go to ask about such impossible speculations to see if our answers are correct, when more pressing Earthly science requires the attention of the very best that science has to offer.

So for now please accept that while I do not disbelieve, (open minded), like many people in this excellent forum require substantial proof about a PM discovery. The post mentioning the movement of the planet by the way as far as the planet is concerned is a closed system and does move perpetually! So any such machine could do worse than include gravity as a free force.
 

Offline Pumblechook

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #40 on: 15/11/2008 10:29:22 »
I bought some psychotronic crystals from a man in a pub.  He told me if I kept them in my car not only would I get better mpg  they would protect me from the dealy waves from mobile phones masts.  I got them at a special price of only £200. 
 

Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #41 on: 15/11/2008 14:25:41 »
I bought some psychotronic crystals from a man in a pub.  He told me if I kept them in my car not only would I get better mpg  they would protect me from the dealy waves from mobile phones masts.  I got them at a special price of only £200. 

 Proper sarcasm, at least I hope it is sarcasm. LOL
Any body pushing free energy, perpetual motion, ect. and asking for donations or backers without solid proof, is normally just another snake oil salesman. This is bad for there are to many claims out there and it makes it harder to get people to look the real thing when it is truly done.
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #42 on: 15/11/2008 15:25:18 »
ABH
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Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.
Definition (not really negociable):
Work Done (mehanical energy transferred) = Force multiplied by distance moved by the force, in the direction that the force acts
'Gravity' is too loose a term to use meaningfully.
The Force which is caused by gravity (i.e. weight) is a force and is not energy.
The Gravitational Potential Energy of an object is the energy that was put in to getting the object where it is.  This Energy  (or Work), is given by mgh, where g is the gravitational field, m is the mass and h is the height to which it has been raised.
(You may or may not have been taught that but the above is what you should have been taught.)

You can 'get energy out' of a falling weight (like in an old clock) but, once the weight has fallen to the bottom, you have to wind it up again. Gravity is no more a source of energy than a spring or a rechargeable battery.

If you are 'using gravity' for your machine, then you must have objects falling down in it. If you say the objects move up again, then they will need to be lifted and this will require the same amount of energy as you got our PLUS something to make up for the frictional losses.
If you are using levers, gears, screws or anything else to reduce the force needed to lift them up again then you will have to move this reduced force FURTHER. The total (integral) of force times distance cannot be less.
All the diagrams you can see from past inventions involve 'hopeful' designs with many falling balls on one side and few raised balls on the other (or some such idea). Add up all the Work and you will never get more out than was put in. The friction, consequently, gives you a total loss.
Work it out yourself for a simple lever and the same applies for any other mechanism.

You mentioned your system going very fast. It should be able to work at snail's pace if it were truly Perpetual.
« Last Edit: 16/11/2008 10:20:01 by sophiecentaur »
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #43 on: 15/11/2008 15:27:28 »
AKF
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This is my nature; I do not believe anything until completely satisfied there is no other logical explanation.
That's an amazing statement, in the light of your own theory, posted elsewhere. Occam's razor should apply everywhere, surely.
 

Offline Pumblechook

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #44 on: 15/11/2008 15:49:40 »
You could have free energy if you only ever went downhill.

I am going downhill rapidly but that is another matter.

 
 

Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #45 on: 15/11/2008 16:13:26 »
@sophiecentaur

 Fantastic! you are hitting the nail on the head. Understanding what you have to overcome is the first step in solving the puzzle. The next step is understanding how movement reacts inside, lets say a wheel device. Centrifugal effect creates even more dimension to the puzzle. The reset, is what you have noted to be a very big problem and it is. Johan Bessler in the 18 century solved this problem and built 4 different working wheels. They were on display and no one could prove him wrong. They went to great stride, even as far as taxing him on it to get his secret. But they would not pay his price and from the pressure and false accusations against him, he decided keep it to himself. It is a very interesting story and full books on the subject. Most of what you see about him is footnotes and mostly without merit for they are from a nay say point of view.

You mentioned your system going very fast. It should be able to work at snail's pace if it were truly Perpetual.


 This statement I have to disagree with. For it can start out slow but it will speed up till frictions, centrifugal force effect, and other factors  determine its speed limits. Without these limits it would simply be gravity plus velocity = ? each and every turn.
« Last Edit: 15/11/2008 16:21:14 by AB Hammer »
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #46 on: 15/11/2008 17:03:29 »
Johan Bessler has the advantage of having lived a long time ago. So we cannot know exactly what he demonstrated. The ancient accounts of his demonstrations cannot be verified or disproved.
The Wikkers account of his work tells us he was in it for money. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but breaking the wheel up rather than keeping it would suggest that he had something dodgey to hide. And there was a claim that it was, in fact, driven by hand.
Yuri Geller and others have performed similar astounding scams but they have all been uncovered. The gullible will always prefer the romantic interpretation of things rather than the rigorous one. But I should have hoped that things would have improved in 300 years.
I see that you are now suggesting that you can, in fact, get an energy flow OUT of the machine. That is really fantastic. The end to all our worries.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #47 on: 15/11/2008 17:44:37 »
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but breaking the wheel up rather than keeping it would suggest that he had something dodgey to hide. And there was a claim that it was, in fact, driven by hand.

 Bessler got wind of the attempt to expose his secret without being paid by arresting him. You would have destroyed it to keep your secret as well. By the way he was cleared of all charges, and his secret safe. There were some people who have been allowed to see inside his wheel and they where of royal background, under their honor to keep the secret.

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I see that you are now suggesting that you can, in fact, get an energy flow OUT of the machine. That is really fantastic. The end to all our worries.

 All our worries? I don't think so. When successful it most likely have to be to big except for electrical generation and stationary mechanical work. The Amish would love it.
 

lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #48 on: 15/11/2008 19:00:13 »
With respect, he chose just the right people to show the workings to. Would you seriously expect the Royals of several hundred years ago to have been capable of spotting the 'flaw'?
Most of the human race, these days are unable to spot 'the flaw' either. That doesn't mean that there isn't one.

As for the necessary scale of a 'useful' version of your machine, what would be the problem with batteries for the small  power items?

Just go ahead and make the thing and we unbelievers will all be proved wrong.
I will even offer to come and witness it (as long as you pay my fare if I spot the flaw).
Now there's an offer. And it's not a wager.
 

Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #49 on: 15/11/2008 21:18:38 »

Just go ahead and make the thing and we unbelievers will all be proved wrong.
I will even offer to come and witness it (as long as you pay my fare if I spot the flaw).
Now there's an offer. And it's not a wager.

Now that sound fair enough. I just have to get over this pneumonia and get my work up to date, so I can build it and then get patent pending status, and I will let you know.

PS wear and tear excluded from flaw for that is a given.
« Last Edit: 15/11/2008 21:20:10 by AB Hammer »
 

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