# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Is perpetual motion impossible?  (Read 59503 times)

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #50 on: 15/11/2008 21:47:05 »
'Wear and tear', distinct from 'sacrificial use as an energy source' would be reasonable.
However, wear and tear involves 'change', which involves the transfer of energy - where will that energy come from?

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #51 on: 16/11/2008 10:26:19 »
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ABH
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Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.
Definition (not really negociable):
Work Done (mehanical energy transferred) = Force multiplied by distance moved by the force, in the direction that the force acts
'Gravity' is too loose a term to use meaningfully.
The Force which is caused by gravity (i.e. weight) is a force and is not energy.
The Gravitational Potential Energy of an object is the energy that was put in to getting the object where it is.  This Energy  (or Work), is given by mgh, where g is the gravitational field, m is the mass and h is the height to which it has been raised.

(You may or may not have been taught that but the above is what you should have been taught.)
BTW, you haven't responded to the rather important point, repeated above.
If we are to have a 'Scientific' discussion and not just a fantasy chat, we need to get the ground rules sorted out.

#### AB Hammer

• Full Member
• Posts: 88
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #52 on: 16/11/2008 14:03:26 »
Sorry sophiecentau but, you will have to wait, until the exposure time. I have to be careful, for I could inadvertently expose the breakthrough, and that would not be fair to those I work with as well. Thus I can not tell you how it is done at this time.

But what we can do is post some designs and talk about what stop each design from working? Or I can post some designs or links that I have posted on other forums to talk how they can or cannot work as well.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5802.0

The links might be interesting to you as well.

#### Bored chemist

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##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #53 on: 16/11/2008 16:28:32 »
What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?

#### ukmicky

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##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #54 on: 16/11/2008 18:55:50 »
Ah yes sophiecentaur

We now get into the intellectual phase now.
1. Is the machine perpetual? or is the motion perpetual?
2. When something is destroyed, is it truly destroyed or just changed?

Every thing goes through a change, which means change is perpetual. Now the wear and tear of a devices which can cause a change in a motion which can make a device fail. But the original motion design that is guided by the device is perpetual and will remain perpetual until the material changes. So you have to look at it as, if there is no change in the device the motion is and will remain perpetual. Thus once the machine is built, perpetual motion is proved.

Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.
And as such a place could not be found or made on earth you;ve got no chance.

Put something in space far enough away from everything else and you could  spin something and expect it to continue spinning for ever however on earth friction would cause to much of a loss of energy and any device would sooner or latter stop .

Unless you are a pure genuis that is and have found a way to convert 100% of the heat and sound produced by friction back in motion. Or have developed some new form of  frictionless material. Or found a way to build an enclosure which stops  gravity ,or the transference of heat and energy from inside or out.
« Last Edit: 16/11/2008 19:42:35 by ukmicky »

#### AB Hammer

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##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #55 on: 16/11/2008 19:43:49 »
Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.

Greetings ukmicky

Up to this point you are correct. You can put it in a glass case.

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And as such a place could not be found or made on earth you;ve got no chance.

Put something in space far enough away from everything else and you could  spin something and expect it to continue spinning for ever

Now to this point we are approaching fantasy and the unpractical.

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however on earth friction would cause to much of a loss of energy and any device would sooner or latter stop .

Wear and tear of materials has to be taken into consideration. For as long as the materials last the motion will remain perpetual.

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Unless you are a pure genuis and have found a way to convert 100% of the heat and sound produced by friction back in motion. Or have developed some new form of new frictionless material. Or found a way to build an enclosure which prevents gravity ,heat or any form of energy being transferred from inside or out.

You missed overwhelming movement that overcomes all friction, until the material fails itself. Which is what it will be. The design for the movement is all that maters, for it can be rebuilt and allot more can be built and fictitious restrictions of impractical proof won't stop it. We have to keep our minds in the realm of reality and practicality.

Here is what you want. A device that runs with No fuel, no sun, no wind, no water, no recognizable source but gravity. And like any other machine repairs may have to be done from time to time. But that will then be all what is needed. It will perpetuate its movement until something stops it.

#### AB Hammer

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##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #56 on: 16/11/2008 19:51:05 »
What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?

Greetings Bored chemist

Here is what one of your founding fathers said

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“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #57 on: 16/11/2008 21:08:30 »
whatever is "overwhelming movement"?
How can any of this be taken seriously whilst such terms as that are used with no definition?

#### rosy

• Neilep Level Member
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• Chemistry
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #58 on: 17/11/2008 00:11:59 »
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no recognizable source but gravity
Eh? If something moves down a gravitational potential it will gain in kinetic energy, sure... but you've still got to do work to start it off at the top, and it will still (possibly over many oscillations) unless it is a truly frictionless system, eventually lose that energy. At which point it will stop.
Running under gravity alone is not sufficient for perpetual motion.

#### AB Hammer

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• Posts: 88
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #59 on: 17/11/2008 01:19:30 »
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no recognizable source but gravity
Eh? If something moves down a gravitational potential it will gain in kinetic energy, sure... but you've still got to do work to start it off at the top, and it will still (possibly over many oscillations) unless it is a truly frictionless system, eventually lose that energy. At which point it will stop.
Running under gravity alone is not sufficient for perpetual motion.

You are not looking a repetitive actions with in a device which will repeat and build up kinetic energy. Thus it becomes perpetual. Don't confuse perpetual with spiritual theory. I have a Graduates degree in theology with the Orthodox. And gravity will always exist so if a device runs on gravity it is perpetual. Even the US patent office has now recognized the possibility of a perpetual motion device. But they won't allow a patent, without a working model.

#### BenV

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1503
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #60 on: 17/11/2008 05:16:55 »
But they won't allow a patent, without a working model.
I can't blame them.  Still, how do you get over the fact that work done against gravity must at least equal the energy gained from falling with gravity?

#### Pumblechook

• Hero Member
• Posts: 569
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #61 on: 17/11/2008 09:55:08 »
Someone else on another talkboard reckons he has some sort of turbine which needs energy to get it spinning and then the energy input can be reduce to zero and it carrys on spinning.. Yeah right!

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #62 on: 17/11/2008 10:28:53 »
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Even the US patent office has now recognized the possibility of a perpetual motion device.

If you were a busy government official, which would you rather to do; argue the toss for ever with 'PM' inventors or just tell them to produce a working machine?
It strikes me as the ideal, time-effective, answer.

Sounds like the classic "Yes, dear, very nice" response from a busy Mum to an enthusiastic teenage son.

#### AB Hammer

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• Posts: 88
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #63 on: 17/11/2008 13:30:25 »
@ All

Back in the past the patent office was getting all to many perpetual motion machine patent applications. And sever where trying to get the idea of perpetual motion itself in any form. So when any body had a breakthrough they could use the courts to take it. It was getting out of hand so the patent office refused unless the people had a working model and it had to run for a year. This stopped the garbage which they were dealing with. Then it somehow became not accepting applications at all, until so many science breakthrough and things that were believed to be impossible became true, as well some near runners where produced in the magnet motor field, that would run for awhile and then stop. The eddy wave would build up heat and basically burn out the magnets. At least the is the theory.

A little history helps.

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #64 on: 17/11/2008 13:52:54 »
And the History does not demonstrate that the decision was either based on Science or supports your argument. Particularly because the conclusion was reached so long ago.

You surely can't suggest that any system with currents flowing around   it (other than a superconductor) could ever be involved in perpetual motion.
Running down after a while doesn't qualify.

#### dentstudent

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• FOGger to the unsuspecting
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #65 on: 17/11/2008 13:59:28 »
Just something interesting I found on the UK patents office site (now known as the UK Intellectual Property Office).

4.05 Processes or articles alleged to operate in a manner which is clearly contrary to well-established physical laws, such as perpetual motion machines, are regarded as not having industrial application

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/practice-sec-004.pdf

« Last Edit: 17/11/2008 14:07:25 by dentstudent »

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #66 on: 17/11/2008 14:58:47 »
They've got a way of putting things, haven't they?
"The Court went on to hold that industry does not exist in that sense to make or use that which is useless for any known purpose."

I guess they've seen it all in their time.

#### Andrew K Fletcher

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• KIS Keep It Simple
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #67 on: 17/11/2008 15:44:44 »
Possibly.

#### Bored chemist

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##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #68 on: 17/11/2008 20:10:45 »
What will stop any and all the designs working is the whole of physics.
What's to discuss?

Greetings Bored chemist

Here is what one of your founding fathers said

Quote
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947

True, but useless.
If there are no rules then we have still nothing to discuss. It might all turn into blancmange tomorrow.

#### srobert

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 11
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #69 on: 17/11/2008 21:20:10 »

Perpetual motion in my mind is a device which will continue in motion without the aid of any additional energy from an outside source other than that which it was given at the time the device started to move. Which in theory is possible however to achieve it and prove itself it would need to be in a closed system in order to eliminating all outside influences.

Surely perpetual motion of itself is not by any means impossible, a body at constant velocity will remain at constant velocity unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. An example of an unbalanced force which acts upon bodies we typically come across is friction. If you were to remove all friction, as well as any other forces from affecting the object then it will not stop. In practice that's impossible since at the very least it will be affected by the gravitation field of other ojects.

The real problem is to build a machine from which you can extract work perpetually without the input of energy

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #70 on: 17/11/2008 22:03:21 »
srobert
You've just described two non viable situations. The latter is just a bit more outrageous than the former.
btw, the gravitational bit is not strictly relevant because gravity is a conservative force.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2008 22:05:54 by sophiecentaur »

#### Onlyinterestednotdevoted

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 23
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #71 on: 17/11/2008 23:15:26 »
Perpetual motion is a possibility. I have never seen a wheel design that would not eventually lose momentum due to friction. But then again, maybe friction is the thing to use. You don't get something for nothing. You just got to learn to use the same force more than once. I am currently on the second draft of a machine I have been working on for a LLLLLOOONNNGGGG time. Keep at it.

#### AB Hammer

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##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #72 on: 17/11/2008 23:51:28 »
I am finally getting back to work, and as soon as I get caught up a little, I'll get my wheels done.

Here is one of first of my original designs I posted on other forums. I use it to help prove the possibility of perpetual motion.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2008 23:53:28 by AB Hammer »

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #73 on: 18/11/2008 00:03:38 »
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I use it to help prove the possibility of perpetual motion.
Sorry but, if you take moments about the axis and add them all up, there is no net turning effect. If it were ever to work, it should start from stationary.
Then what about all the noise (energy) involved with all that clattering?
Have you really  not read of all the similar designs which have been long since discredited?

You have as much chance as of  turning base metals into Gold, you know.

#### AB Hammer

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• Posts: 88
##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #74 on: 18/11/2008 02:35:00 »

Have you really  not read of all the similar designs which have been long since discredited?

What similar designs? I have seen thousands and have not found one similar to this one. [8D]

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You have as much chance as of  turning base metals into Gold, you know.

Well I kinda turn metal into gold, its my living as a blacksmith/armourer.

http://www.creationtime.com/hisbsaw.htm

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #74 on: 18/11/2008 02:35:00 »