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Author Topic: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?  (Read 9046 times)

Offline stuartr

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How do they stop or slow down the particles that dont smash into each other?
As I understand it 2 streams of protons are accellerated around a 27km loop in opposite directions to 99.9999% of the speed of light thus giving them lots of energy.They are then forced into a head on 'smash' However when they are deflected some collide and hopefully create new particles but most  miss each other.What happens to those others ? Where do they go? Do they carry on circulating and if so what happens when the scientists  'switch off'the machinery Do they slow the particles gradually and recoup some energy or is there a proton 'buffer' some where that the're allowed to smack into safely.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2008 18:05:46 by chris »


 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #1 on: 13/09/2008 01:02:55 »
They dump them into large graphite blocks.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Offline syhprum

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #3 on: 13/09/2008 10:57:10 »
Fascinating, I wonder how much energy is dissipated, Joules or KWh.
A day by day report on the commissioning is available here.

http://lhc-commissioning.web.cern.ch/lhc-commissioning/

"Together the LHC’s magnets store even more energy than the proton beams do—a whopping 10,000 megajoules, compared to 362 megajoules for the beams. Most of this energy is contained in 1232 superconducting dipole magnets, which do most of the work of beam steering.

While a beam of particles by itself creates very little heat, beam particles straying from the core of the beam will heat up surrounding material. It takes just a small number of beam particles hitting a magnet in one spot to raise the magnet’s temperature above a critical point, causing it to suddenly change from superconducting to “normal” conducting. This change, called a quench, releases the stored energy of the magnet and its neighbors; it can heat a small part of the magnet from -271 to 700°C (-456 to 1300°F) in less than one second.

“If we don’t do anything, all the stored energy will go into one magnet, and that magnet will be destroyed,” says CERN’s Rudiger Schmidt, coordinator of LHC machine protection. “We have to detect a quench and take action to put the energy somewhere that it’s not dangerous.”

When a quench begins, the beams are shut down and power to the affected magnet is immediately cut. Then heaters fire up, quickly raising the temperature of the whole 14.3-meter-long, 35-ton magnet and dissipating the energy.

Each dipole magnet is connected to 153 neighbors, and their energy also has to be immediately removed. A switch sends the energy into large resistors, where it heats eight tons of steel to a temperature of 300°C (570°F) in less than two minutes".



« Last Edit: 18/09/2008 09:27:39 by syhprum »
 

Offline stuartr

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #4 on: 13/09/2008 16:28:22 »
Thanks UKMickey.
I thought  they would slow them gradually some how but they do direct them  down a siding and into the graphite buffers ! Blimey !
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #5 on: 14/09/2008 11:58:11 »
Thanks UKMickey.
I thought  they would slow them gradually some how but they do direct them  down a siding and into the graphite buffers ! Blimey !

Thomas the Tank Proton!  :D
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #6 on: 14/09/2008 16:09:01 »
Presumably while the Protons are circulating they are radiating away X-rays or gamma rays this energy must be continually replenished by the rf cavities to keep them in the correct orbit.
if this supply of energy was cut off no doubt the beam would decay but the strength of the field of the bending magnets would have to be adjusted to keep the beam on course.
this would be a much more complex business than simply dumping the beam and the energy stored in the field of the magnets would also have to be dumped or recovered somehow   
 

Offline socratus

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #7 on: 15/09/2008 07:33:23 »
The mad CERN’s project.

 This week's startup of Europe's Large Hadron Collider didn't generate
 a big bang or a black hole, but it did generate a big reaction from folks
 who followed our series on the "Big Bang Machine."
More than 40,000 people voiced their opinion by clicking through
 our unscientific survey or by discussing the issues in online forums.
Full Story: 
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/12/1386080.aspx

===============.. 
The mad CERN’s way.

In 1906, Rutherford studied internal structure of atoms,
bombarding them with high energy a- particles.
This idea helped him understand the structure of atom.
 But the clever Devil interfered and gave advice to physicists
 to enlarge the target. Bomb them!
 And physicist created huge cannon-accelerators of particles.
 And they began to bomb micro particles in the vacuum, in hoping
 to understand  their inner structure. And they were surprised with
 the results of this bombing. Several hundreds of completely new
 strange particles appeared. They lived a very little time and do not
 relate to our world.  Our Earth needs its real constants of nature.
But this was forgotten.
What God carefully created, is destroyed in accelerators.
 And they are proud of that. They say: we study the inner structure
of the particles. The clever and artful Devil is glad. He again has deceived man.
Physicist  think, that an accelerator - is first of all the presence of huge energy.
And the Devil laughs.  He knows, that an accelerator - is first of all the Vacuum.
But this, he has withheld from man.
 He has not explained that the Vacuum is infinite and inexhaustible.
 And in infinity there is contained an infinite variety of particles.
 And by bombing the vacuum, one can find centaurs and sphinxes.
 But my God, save us from their presence on Earth.
=========   .. ========.
Rutherford  was right.
His followers are mistaken.
Why?
Imagine, that I want to plant a small apple- tree.
For this purpose I shall dig out a hole of 1 meter width and  1,20 m depth.
It is normal.
But if to plant a small apple- tree, I shall begin to dig
a base for a huge building (skyscraper),
or if to begin drill ground with 10 km. depth, 
will you call me a normal man?
==========  ..  ===============.
Imagine a man who breaks watches on the wall.
 And then he tries to understand the mechanism of the watches
 by thrown cogwheels, springs and small screws.
 Does he have many chances to succeed?
 As many as the scientists have who aspire to understand
 the inner structure of electron by breaking them into accelerators.
 If not take into account the initial conditions of Genesis,
 the fantasies of the scientists may be unlimited.
==========     . ======== .
The Nature works very economical.
 For example, biologists know 100 ( hundred ) kinds of
amino acids. But only 20 ( twenty) kinds of amino acids
 are suitable to produce molecules of protein, from which all
different cells created on our planet. What are about another
80 % of amino acids? They are dead end of evolution.
The physicists found many ( 1000 ) new elementary particles in
 accelerators. But we need only one ( 1) electron  and one (1 )
 proton to create first atom, to begin to create the Nature.
 All another elementary  particles (mesons, muons , bosons, taus,
 all their girlfriends -  antiparticles, all quarks and antiquarks…etc)
 are dead end of evolution.
===========..
The Universe as whole is Vacuum, at first of everything.
So, instead of understand that Vacuum, Electron, Proton are
themselves, the physicists  break them in the pieces. 

Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.

http://www.wbabin.net
http://www.wbabin.net/comments/sadovnik.htm
http://www.wbabin.net/physics/sadovnik.pdf

==================..
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #8 on: 15/09/2008 08:36:34 »
We would not get very far creating everyday matter if we only had Electrons and Protons, surely a few Neutrons are needed as well.
 

Offline socratus

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #9 on: 15/09/2008 16:51:00 »
We would not get very far creating everyday matter if we only had Electrons and Protons, surely a few Neutrons are needed as well.
=============================
According to this opinion the first simplest atom consist of electron, proton,
neutron, some different quarks and maybe antiquarks and gluon fields..........
Isn’t it too complex idea ?


 

Offline socratus

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #10 on: 15/09/2008 19:39:17 »
Somebody wrote to me:
“You haven't completely understood what happens in those accelerators.

They do not smash atoms and elementary particles to see what's inside of them (like you proposed in your "smashing a watch" example). We already know what is in a proton, for example. It's quarks by the way.
What they try to do is create an environment where a collision between particles will occur, creating massive amounts of energy. That energy will CREATE new particles out of nothing, according to the E=mc^2 formula. Because of the amount of the energy in that accelerator, it has been speculated that the higgs boson will come into existence.
The higgs boson is the only particle predicted by the standard model (physics) which has not yet been observed.
I hope my answer has helped you, and i wish you have an open mind in your searches, best wishes “
======================..
Once again:
That energy will CREATE new particles out of nothing,
 according to the E=mc^2 formula.
=======..
So, the process is going in Vacuum.
My question is: “ How in Vacuum ( without accelerators) the
God-particles are born according to the E=mc^2 formula, of course ? “

 
 

lyner

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #11 on: 15/09/2008 22:05:02 »
Quote
We already know what is in a proton, for example. It's quarks by the way.
I think that's overstating it a bit. By assuming it is made up of things which we call Quarks we can make some pretty good predictions and explanations about their behaviour. That's all you can really say.
Such statements always run the risk of suggesting, to the layperson,  there is actually a definitive answer to any of these things.
The interactions which the LHC will cause to occur will (we  hope) be explained 'in terms of' some other particle / energy entity.
We are only removing yet another shell from the onion of our ignorance.
 

Offline socratus

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #12 on: 16/09/2008 06:31:43 »
Quote
We already know what is in a proton, for example. It's quarks by the way.
I think that's overstating it a bit. By assuming it is made up of things which we call Quarks we can make some pretty good predictions and explanations about their behaviour. That's all you can really say.
Such statements always run the risk of suggesting, to the layperson,  there is actually a definitive answer to any of these things.
The interactions which the LHC will cause to occur will (we  hope) be explained 'in terms of' some other particle / energy entity.
We are only removing yet another shell from the onion of our ignorance.
===============================

Quarks?  Dragonology and quarkology.
========================
The wish of the scientists to understand the picture of Existence is great.
That is why, aspiring to understand the structure of micro particles,
 they created a new theory "quantum chromodynamics ", "quark model" (1963).
But the "quantum chromodynamics " theory approves
that it is impossible to see quarks.
*       *      *
“Once upon a time there was a man who was a very good expert on dragon.
 He studied versions of dragons, their attributes and habits most carefully .
He could skillfully distinguish one kind of dragon from another.
But, unfortunately, for all his life he never met any dragon. .
And he did not hear, that someone another  should see dragon. .
When this scientist came nearer to old age and got tired from studying dragons,
he began to train  the young people, that they also understood this major
area of knowledge – dragonology as well.”
/ From the book V.P. Shelist "Splinters" /
*       *      *
The  dragon  theory was created  a long time ago.
The quark theory was  recently created.
The dragon   is a strange beast.
And the quark   is also a strange beast.
Both of them are from one myth.
Only different times   gave this myth the different names.
=========.. ============
 Article by Vertner Vergon.

Years ago, I attended a lecture at Caltech by Gell-Mann in which he
explained why he developed the THEORY of the quark. He was looking for
a common denomenator to the atomic zoo -- a common denominator of
characteristics. He found some (3) and didn't know what they really
were so he called them Quarks. Later he found more, so he had 6. From
there the theory grew like topsey and develped colors -- BECAUSE THEY
DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY WERE. Some theory.
(Then there's "up" "down" --- and I'm waiting for "sideways" :-)  )
The quark has never been isolated. So instead of admitting there was no
such thing, it was pronounced that it could not escape the nucleus. How
convenient..
Bill uses as an argument that the rest of humanity believes in the
quark. Humanity believed in Ptolemy's universe for FOURTEEN CENTURIES.
And more recently, practically all of humanity celebrated New Year 2000
as the beginning of a new millennium while the FACT is the new
millenium started with the year 2001.
 "Humanity" can be very stupid at times.
A more apropos story for the non-existent quarks is the fable about the
King who wore no clothes. Everybody commented on how COLORFUL his
clothes were (the same colors as have quarks) but, alas, the king was
naked.
If anyone wants to read a theory of the sub-particle structure of the
universe, they can go to http://www.wbabin.net (The General Science
Journal) --find the list of authors pull down -- click on Vertner
Vergon and read the monograph, "On the Quantum as a Physical Entity".

VERGON
===== ..  =====
Question.
Is it possible in the future to find a sexual quark?
==============..
Best wishes.
Israel Sadovnik. / Socratus.

 

Offline socratus

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #13 on: 16/09/2008 07:02:38 »
What was before: “ big bang” or vacuum ?
============.
The physicists created the " Europe’s Large Hadron Colider " 
Please, look how our physicists made this accelerator.
Before they made vacuum and after they generate big reaction
between two meeting particles, some small imitation of " big bang ".
They didn’t make  this process vice versa.
So, what was before in the Universe: " big bang " or vacuum ?
================================
 

lyner

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #14 on: 16/09/2008 10:16:15 »
I have a vague idea that you may be agreeing with me.

Sexual Quarks, possibly.
Sexual Quirks, definitely.
 

Offline socratus

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #15 on: 16/09/2008 11:42:46 »
I have a vague idea that you may be agreeing with me.

Sexual Quarks, possibly.
Sexual Quirks, definitely.

The scientific quirks, be cat off from real nature, exist definitely too.
 

Offline socratus

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #16 on: 16/09/2008 12:46:49 »
Hawking bets CERN will not find the God Particle

http://www.physorg.com/news140161003.html
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #17 on: 16/09/2008 13:31:15 »
Am I right in thinking that you think that maybe the LHC is a waste of money, or worse, in some way looking into "secrets" that do not (and will never) concern us in our everyday existence?

Aside from the money which, it could be argued, may be better deployed elsewhere, I profoundly disagree with such a view. I would be willing to argue about the money issue for which there are competing calls, but I would never wish to deter pure research with such a strange and ill-founded argument. I can imagine similar arguments in the past like who cares whether the earth goes around the sun or vice versa; how does that change anything in our lives? Of course it would not have changed anything for the average man growing his subsistance crops each year, but if we had that attitude we would not have got very far in any of our understanding of anything other that what can be easily observed with the naked eye and/or discerned by simplistic reasoning. It is a negation of all pure science to resort to such arguments.

I note we are all using computers which depend on an understanding semiconductor physics and quantum mechanics. These are hardly everyday concepts that can be simply rationalise by everyman. Is it not just drawing an arbitrary line to say we should not bother with understanding elemetary particles beyond protons, electrons and neutrons? The world is what it is and is there for us to understand if we want to. Personally, I'm glad some people still want to.
 

lyner

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #18 on: 16/09/2008 14:56:56 »
The money bit does worry me.
If there were two old dears on a street corner jingling collecting boxes, one with a  CERN box and the other  with a Famine Relief box, I know which one I'd put my £1 into.
I guess I should just put £1 in each.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #19 on: 17/09/2008 21:25:34 »
I think i may know where CERN get all their money from.

If i put money in a age concern box am i giving to the old or is it an elaborate con ran by CERN to fund their particle decay experiments. AGE-CON-CERN
« Last Edit: 17/09/2008 23:52:51 by ukmicky »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #20 on: 17/09/2008 22:47:09 »
I think i may know where CERN get all their money from.

If i put money in a age concern box am i giving to to old or is it an elaborate con ran by CERN to fund their particle decay experiments. AGE-CON-CERN

very clever!
 

paul.fr

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #21 on: 18/09/2008 01:23:40 »
I think i may know where CERN get all their money from.

If i put money in a age concern box am i giving to to old or is it an elaborate con ran by CERN to fund their particle decay experiments. AGE-CON-CERN

very clever!

Pathetic!
Although i hear that a team of Irish scientist are puzzled as to why you need a cullender that large!
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #22 on: 18/09/2008 02:14:42 »
I think i may know where CERN get all their money from.

If i put money in a age concern box am i giving to to old or is it an elaborate con ran by CERN to fund their particle decay experiments. AGE-CON-CERN

very clever!

Pathetic!
Although i hear that a team of Irish scientist are puzzled as to why you need a cullender that large!
Terrible :)
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #23 on: 18/09/2008 07:44:34 »
I think i may know where CERN get all their money from.

If i put money in a age concern box am i giving to to old or is it an elaborate con ran by CERN to fund their particle decay experiments. AGE-CON-CERN

very clever!

Pathetic!
Although i hear that a team of Irish scientist are puzzled as to why you need a cullender that large!

It has to be big so you can see the dates properly  :D
 

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Re: What happens to particles in the LHC that don't collide?
« Reply #23 on: 18/09/2008 07:44:34 »

 

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