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Author Topic: The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare  (Read 25536 times)

Offline BenV

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #25 on: 10/10/2008 13:34:21 »
Yes, you're right, Newton was a christian, and did some great science.  I'll point out the major problem with your above post though...

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and many of the major journals of the 1800's you will find God mentioned there abundantly.

The world has moved on, and atheism is now far more acceptable.  We know more about the world and we know that there is no evidence for god, and so it would be wrong to publish scientific papers that suggest god as a mechanism.

I'd point out that some of the very first scientists believed in Zeus, and they would be laughing at you for suggesting that life was made by your god, rather than the many gods they believed in.

"Science is supposed to be a free for all, where as long as evidence can be presented, the presenter is listened to, rather than shouted down."


So, present some evidence.


See above.

Bored Chemist and I have asked you for evidence for creation, not just an example you feel can't have evolved.  You have not done so.

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive, as I explained on another thread they stem from different paradigms, but none of the religious scientists you have mentioned would attempt to publish something describing god as a biological mechanism - they would be ridiculed, and rightly so.  Either way, my remark was about your conduct on this forum, in that we provide evidence and mechanisms, and you ignore them and claim that 'god did it'.  Thus, my remark is not at all false.

With regards your discussion rules...

You have presented a lot of material, yes, but are unwilling to listen to the replies it receives.  I've read it, and realised that instead of starting from "what are the possible explanations for the existence of x" you have started from "how can I attempt to show that x didn't evolve".

You have presented your case against, we have presented our evidence in favour.  I acknowledge that there are areas where the exact details of evolution remain to be elucidated, but the mechanism is proven and sound.  You yourself appreciate that natural selection causes changes in the genes of a population, yet refuse to follow that to it's logical conclusion.  It is now your turn to provide evidence for your alternative explanation, otherwise the current explanation will remain the accepted one.

I feel I should point out that I am, in fact, a moderator on this forum.
 

Offline Don_1

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #26 on: 10/10/2008 17:33:16 »
Easy. God made them.

This is the answer I expected. It's why man made Gods, anything you can't explain or understand is attributed to the them. The easy answer to any question.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #27 on: 10/10/2008 19:31:06 »
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The world has moved on, and atheism is now far more acceptable.  We know more about the world and we know that there is no evidence for god, and so it would be wrong to publish scientific papers that suggest god as a mechanism.

You're quite right - the world has moved on.

If you define 'scientific' as things that are observable and measurable, then of course God cannot be a scientific explanation of anything. But then, neither can evolution be observed or measured. And before anybody leaps forth yelling 'what about bacterial resistance' let me say, I accept that micro-evolution takes place.

The problem arises when we seek evidence of evolution above or at family level. There isn't any.
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The world has moved on, and atheism is now far more acceptable.  We know more about the world and we know that there is no evidence for god, and so it would be wrong to publish scientific papers that suggest god as a mechanism.

It may be more acceptable, but that doesn't mean that it is correct.

Paul Davies published a book not so long ago called the Mind of God. I haven't read it, but it does seem an extraordinary title coming from a very modern physicist. And knowing some of the things he has said about the anthropic principle and the evidence for it, I think this is a serious departure for modern science.

Reading Denton creates the inescapable conclusion that there is far more to science than atoms and DNA molecules. I can't scan his material in, but I do recommend that you have a careful read of Nature's Destiny. He is not a creationist, but the evidence he presents, particularly in his own field of molecular biology is absolutely mind boggling, and far beyond Darwinism and natural selection.

Well let's have a debate, regulated by another moderator. If you are a participant you cannot reasonably moderate as well.

What about it?
 

lyner

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #28 on: 11/10/2008 00:10:21 »
I am an atheist, myself, yet I am amazed that so many self-confessed atheists are so passionate in their non belief. This thread is so littered with little-endian and big-endian nonsense that it is hard to find any genuine attention to real Science.
Christians / people of religion and atheists should be able to have a perfectly good conversation involving evidence and what it infers without childishly getting at each other's throats. Grow up chaps and have a proper discussion.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #29 on: 11/10/2008 07:25:33 »
Quote
neither can evolution be observed or measured. And before anybody leaps forth yelling 'what about bacterial resistance' let me say, I accept that micro-evolution takes place.

The problem arises when we seek evidence of evolution above or at family level. There isn't any.

This is equivalent to saying that kilometres cannot arise from the addition of millimetres! The distinction between "micro" and "macro" evolution is nonsense! There is a continuum! "Micro" evolution is just "macro" evolution in a much shorter time frame. 

You still have not presented any positive evidence for design. Even if evolution as currently known was completely falsified, it would STILL not lend any credence to creationism! You can try to refute evolution as much as you want, but since creationism is devoid of evidence and reason, it is not an explanation for ANYTHING!


Sophie, when people such as Asyncritus pursue ridiculous arguments based on creationism and ignore the actual science, of course the discussion will fall back to criticism of the religious ideologies!
 

lyner

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #30 on: 11/10/2008 10:48:28 »
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Sophie, when people such as Asyncritus pursue ridiculous arguments based on creationism and ignore the actual science, of course the discussion will fall back to criticism of the religious ideologies!

but there's no point in taking it personally (or appearing to).
If you don't want to keep your argument 'sensible' then back out. There's no way you will persuade a fanatic by frontal argument, in any case.
People may change their opinions sometimes but not in the middle of a steaming argument with someone who they think is barmy. You and I appear that way to some people (many of my friends, for a start).
Basically, you have no proof, as such - just a strong inference from a lot of evidence. That's good enough for me but is of little value against 'faith'.

People have real difficulty with very small and very big numbers. The time for the juxtaposition of changing conditions and a suitable evolutionary change is too long for most people to comprehend. It is the equivalent of a Royal Flush several times in a row (and more) and you need to use Maths to help you through some of these ideas associated with probability and numbers. Anyone who just doesn't want to believe it just won't.

To my mind, the greatest indicator of the Evolution system is the DNA. There is an amazing amount of common DNA in all living things and we can produce all sorts of changes by genetic manipulation and 'artificial selection'. Given plenty of time, anything, viable, could evolve - even religion.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #31 on: 11/10/2008 12:31:16 »
"But then, neither can evolution be observed or measured. "
False- look at the differences we (acting as selective pressure) have brought about in dogs and pigeons, Also consider the fate of the 2 subspecies of peppered moths.

I note that Asyncritus has still failed to explain God's origin.
 

Offline Flyberius

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« Reply #32 on: 11/10/2008 13:30:44 »
I lol'd
 

Offline Evie

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #33 on: 11/10/2008 13:57:30 »
Sophie,

I agree with you 100%. Both sides of the "discussion" have been snarky with one another and that's no way to make a good point on either front.

The time scale issue is what gets most creationists. They profess that because you can't see creatures changing into new species all around us, evolution must not exist! In my first geology class in college, my professor did a wonderful illustration for us of the geologic time scale. He took us out in the parking lot and stretched out a VERY long tape measure. he said, if this is the age of the universe, than THIS much is the age of the earth (placing a mark a little less than half way), and so on, ending with a tiny dot at the very end of the tape to indicate the amount of time humans have been around. It was very useful and I always think of that when I'm feeling a bit superior.  ;)
 

Offline Asyncritus

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #34 on: 11/10/2008 19:36:53 »
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The problem arises when we seek evidence of evolution above or at family level. There isn't any.

This is equivalent to saying that kilometres cannot arise from the addition of millimetres!

This shows a certain in depth understanding of Biology!

Because we can see dark moths being selected out because the tree barks are light, and because we can see bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics, we can also see a land mammal becoming a whale which dives to 2 miles depth!

Wow!
 

Offline BenV

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #35 on: 11/10/2008 22:08:41 »
Sophie, you're quite right, I'm allowing this to get to me.

Asyncritus, I decline your offer of a debate, for the reasons I have stated above, and due to the fact that I do not have the time to do the research for you.  I appreciate you will not accept evolution, despite the evidence, and I'm afraid that you must come to terms with that I will not accept your ideas.

Everyone else, sorry if I offended or frustrated you, and fair enough if I have amused you.  I should learn to ignore creationists, rather than letting them get to me.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #36 on: 12/10/2008 08:15:43 »
Anybody else fancy picking up the gauntlet?

Come on you guys. If evolution is all it's cracked up to be, then here's a marvellous opportunity to showcase the virtues of the theory, and discredit one of the lower life forms (that's me) and creationism as a whole.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #37 on: 12/10/2008 09:01:32 »
Asyncritus, go and read some scientific literature with an open mind and leave us alone. If you actually made an effort to understand how evolution works then you wouldn't need to dispute it this way. Put down your Harun Yahya rubbish and read some real science.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2008 09:39:02 by _Stefan_ »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #38 on: 12/10/2008 16:26:04 »
"Because we can see dark moths being selected out because the tree barks are light, and because we can see bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics, we can also see a land mammal becoming a whale which dives to 2 miles depth!"
Yes, we can.
Can't you?

"Anybody else fancy picking up the gauntlet?

Come on you guys. If evolution is all it's cracked up to be, then here's a marvellous opportunity to showcase the virtues of the theory, and discredit one of the lower life forms (that's me) and creationism as a whole."

Don't flatter yourself. Picking holes in your ideas isn't one of evolution's major achievements.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #39 on: 13/10/2008 07:36:26 »
You want to take up the challenge then?
 

Offline _Stefan_

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #40 on: 13/10/2008 08:51:19 »
Are you even reading our posts? Do you read anything of substance at all?
 

lyner

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #41 on: 13/10/2008 09:22:42 »
Creationists have a way of shooting themselves in the foot when they produce pictures and model tableaux of happy human kids playing with Dinosaurs. Is there any evidence at all of fossils of humans being found right next to fossils of dinosaurs?
There is very strong evidence about the timescales involved. This is conveniently ignored. But if you don't want to understand then you won't.

In any case, is there any evidence at all (of the Scientific kind) to support Creationism?
« Last Edit: 13/10/2008 09:24:55 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline Asyncritus

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #42 on: 14/10/2008 00:20:38 »
Creationists have a way of shooting themselves in the foot when they produce pictures and model tableaux of happy human kids playing with Dinosaurs. Is there any evidence at all of fossils of humans being found right next to fossils of dinosaurs?
There is very strong evidence about the timescales involved. This is conveniently ignored. But if you don't want to understand then you won't.

In any case, is there any evidence at all (of the Scientific kind) to support Creationism?

I'm not really sure what you're looking for Sophie.

We only have 2 alternatives:

1 Evolution did it

2 God did it.

As I've shown, evolution didn't do it. So what's left?
 

Offline Asyncritus

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #43 on: 14/10/2008 00:22:07 »
Are you even reading our posts? Do you read anything of substance at all?

Do you want to take up the challenge? If so, let's get on with it. If not, then perhaps you'd like to stay out of this?
 

Offline _Stefan_

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #44 on: 14/10/2008 07:19:09 »
If you had read my posts, you would know that your second last post is wrong:

"You still have not presented any positive evidence for design. Even if evolution as currently known was completely falsified, it would STILL not lend any credence to creationism! You can try to refute evolution as much as you want, but since creationism is devoid of evidence and reason, it is not an explanation for ANYTHING!"

Please STOP posting about creationism vs evolution until you make a POSITIVE case for a creator and creation. A mechanistic explanation for creation would also be nice.

Evolution has earned its position over 150 years and by a massive amount of evidence, as the correct explanation for life on Earth. Creationism has not. Your rantings are worthless unless you provide evidence for your alternative explanation.
 

Offline BenV

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #45 on: 14/10/2008 08:51:02 »
Okay, I'm going to put my moderators hat on now.

This thread is at an impasse, and has nowhere to go but down.

Asyncritus, you have been asked for evidence that you will not, and can not, present.  You have acknowledged before that 'god did it' is not a valid scientific explanation for life on Earth, and consistently refuse to put up a scientific alternative to evolution.  Furthermore, it seems that you ignore others posts in response to your own, often refuting the ideas you present.

Everyone else (myself included) - we should be respectful of people's religious beliefs, even if they are not being respectful of science - I am more guilty of insulting Asyncritus' faith than most, but this the level I fear we will descend to if this thread continues.

As such, this thread will only descend into arguments and name calling, so henceforth, consider it locked.
 

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The Lungs of Birds: Another Evolutionary Nightmare
« Reply #45 on: 14/10/2008 08:51:02 »

 

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