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Author Topic: Are electric currents identical with charges movement ?  (Read 4224 times)

Offline sorincosofret

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Electric currents in solutions and charge movement

This is a revision and a refinement of a previous experiment presented in atomic book.

The experiment scheme is presented in fig 1 and resides in a circuit formed by home made electrolytic cell, an ammeter and two battery of 1,5 V connected in series in first case and in parallel in second case.




Figure 1. Experiment design

            The electrolytic cell is filled with a NaCl solution containing a small quantity of bromthymol blue indicator.

For the series battery circuit after ten seconds at one electrode a blue color appear as result of NaOH formation (fig. 2). The current through circuit is about 3.9 mA. The color starts to form like a glove around electrode after few seconds and extends in time in the entire volume.




Figure 2. Experimental detail Ė battery in series

For the parallel battery circuit, even in the fig. 3 is difficult to be observed, at one electrode, after long time, it forms a small quantity of NaOH; details will be presented in the book, here it is not the case to insist because the purpose of this experiment is completely different.



Figure 3. Parallel battery circuit details

In order to eliminate any doubt about chemical phenomena at electrodes, the indicator is eliminated from solution (it is known from organic electrochemistry that organic compounds are more sensitive to electric currents), and a modified experiment is used (fig.4). In series with the electrolytic cell another resistor (variable if itís possible) with a resistance of minim 5 MΩ is used; the cell is modified too. It is necessary to be used a shorted cell and a saturated solution of NaCl in order to decrease the resistance of the cell to about 5-8 MΩ. If we do that, the potential difference over electrolytic cell can be lower then 0.9 V a potential where it is difficult to believe that a electrolysis phenomena of NaCl solution took place. Of course choosing an appropriate set of potentiometers the potential on the cell can be even lower, but the results are the same.




Figure 4 Modified parallel circuit

With this new improved circuit the situation is presented in fig. 5.





Figure 5. Modified experiments experimental details

As is observed over the cell there is a potential difference of 0.81 V and in the circuit a current of 97 microA.

 

Background and actual explanation

It is accepted that salt solution permits to electric current to pass through, and this is due to the ions which travel toward electrodes and chemical reactions take place at electrode-solution interface. But whatís happened if the ions have not the possibility to react at electrodes and to change the electrons? From electrochemistry we know that for water electrolysis are necessary more then 1.7 Volts, and for NaCl electrolysis approx. 4 Volts. In our last experiment the voltage is much  lower (0.83V) than value necessary for electrode reactions and for electron transfer. In this case according to actual physics the ions must migrate to electrodes and at beginning the intensity must be great due to the movement of charges in solution; in time around the electrodes are formed charged regions (fig 6.) and intensity of electric current must decrease like in fig 7, admitting a constant velocity of ions in solution. After a time interval the intensity of electric current must became zero and the solution transforms in a capacitor in this conditions.



Figure 6. Ions circulation in solution

 


Figure 7 Expected variation of current intensity

 

The reality is opposite; the current passes through solution a whole night at the same intensity (95-100 microA). I leave to elite of actual physics the explanation of this experiment. Probably a macroscopic quantum tunnel effect is the most appropriate explanation, because a logical explanation for electron circulation through solution is not possible.

Proposed explanation starts from different concepts for electric charge movement and electric currents. In this case an electric current can pass through a circuit without chemical effects. Of course this kind of experiments can be modified in order to measure the power loosed by a circuit when there are or there arenít chemical processes at electrodes. A detailed discussion about electrochemistry is presented in book ....
« Last Edit: 20/10/2008 09:19:11 by sorincosofret »


 

Offline turnipsock

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Re: Are electric currents identical with charges movement ?
« Reply #1 on: 16/10/2008 01:04:35 »
I have just bought a fusion razor and I'm not looking forward to it going wrong and getting 1.5V across my face. Also, I can't see how firing protons through a swiss hillside has anything to do with removing my facial fuzz.
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Re: Are electric currents identical with charges movement ?
« Reply #2 on: 16/10/2008 12:00:16 »
Be happy with your device. For you it is not important if current electric is formed by protons, particle α,β, x,y or z.
I post this message (others in the past, others in the future) only to have the certitude that Iíve made all possible to change a wrong foundation of physics. The messages are not addressed to whom are buying instruments and push a button and then see the fuzz off.   
« Last Edit: 16/10/2008 12:14:54 by sorincosofret »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Are electric currents identical with charges movement ?
« Reply #3 on: 16/10/2008 19:55:04 »
Sorin,
As I recall I have already pointed out that electrolytic cells are non-linear, it isn't really sensible to talk about a cell with a resistance of 5Mohms.

More importantly, in the circuit shown in fig 4 the potential difference from the battery is only 1.5V and any current flow must pass through the 5Mohm resistor so the maximum current is about a third of a microamp.
Since you are measuring about 300 times that you have clearly made a mistake somewhere.


Until you sort out the experimental details there is no justification for you to question the established laws of physics.
Also saying things like "From electrochemistry we know that for water electrolysis are necessary more then 1.7 Volts, and for NaCl electrolysis approx. 4 Volts. ",when you know have already shown this to be false, is silly.
If it took 4 volts then you wouldn't get a colour change as you see in figure 3 at 1.5 volts.

Please go and learn some science.

(Some people might think this is a rather harsh criticism, but Sorin pas posted nonsense here before and should know better.)
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: Are electric currents identical with charges movement ?
« Reply #4 on: 16/10/2008 21:16:13 »
What a strange idea that you should need two U2 cells clumsily wired in parallel to provide .3μA 
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Re: Are electric currents identical with charges movement ?
« Reply #5 on: 16/10/2008 23:00:02 »
Go ahead an make the experience and after that leave the comments....
In the meantime I think you have learned to count up to four and your oppinion about physics as a science of circumstances was modified.
In the experiment as is seen in the picture a potentiometer is used in order to divide the potential which fall on the cell.
The problem is not the value of electric current .. the problem is how the electron are passing through solution.
Even in case of a 0.3 microA which means a number of :
Q=n*e =i*t
n = i*t/e = 0.3*10exp(-6)*1/(1.6 *10exp(-19)) = 1.9 * 10exp(12) electron in every second are passing through solution.
Propose a mechanism for this (lower or higher) current in the frame of actual physics.
If you are not able to connect two wires, in order to verify my experiment, please let me know; my previous bet is still valid ...
« Last Edit: 16/10/2008 23:11:39 by sorincosofret »
 

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Re: Are electric currents identical with charges movement ?
« Reply #5 on: 16/10/2008 23:00:02 »

 

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