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Author Topic: The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th  (Read 8390 times)

Offline JimBob

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REJOICE - OR DESPAIR !!!

Defeat! The Union Jack Surrendered!


"Faced with a dwindling supply of food and ammunition, and still awaiting relief from Clinton, Cornwallis offered to surrender unconditionally on October 17. Cornwallis declined to appear at the surrender ceremony or to surrender his sword (a custom at the time) to General Washington, claiming illness and sending his second in command Brigadier Charles O'Hara instead. Washington refused to accept the surrender from O'Hara, and so the deputy surrendered to Washington's subordinate, General Benjamin Lincoln. When the British forces came out, their drummers played the march, "The World Turned Upside Down." (Wikipedia)

Take that Georgie Boy (And I am not referring to Boy George - the other loony is the one of whom I speak!)

(And they rewarded Cornwallis with the governor general-ship of India? No wonder you blokes lost an Empire! Even though he did much to improve the British position in India, to be completely fair.)


 

Offline rosalind dna

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #1 on: 17/10/2008 12:32:27 »
But have you noticed just how similar in some ways the US can be to the UK.

EG: Both flags are Red, White and Blue but too many things to dare to put in a post. IMO
 

blakestyger

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #2 on: 17/10/2008 13:38:19 »
At least we had an Empire - it must be tough to be in decline without ever having had one. [^]
 

Offline Make it Lady

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #3 on: 17/10/2008 23:57:14 »
JimBob at least our men were waiting for relief from Clinton, whereas your Clinton will take relief of any tart in a black dress!
As for Cornwallis, well anyone could improve on the missionary position.
 

Offline rosalind dna

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #4 on: 18/10/2008 20:04:44 »
Blake and Make it Lady, yes I agree and it was the UK that won the 2nd Worldwar which they entered when it actually started on 3/9/1939 but as history tells us all that:
as history tells us all that:

The USA didn't enter the WW2 until Pearl Harbour was bombed in 7th December 1941 and F.D. Roossevelt declared war on 8th December 1941.
Just like the WW1, they didn't enter it until 1916 !!

 

Offline frethack

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #5 on: 18/10/2008 21:14:54 »
Quote
But have you noticed just how similar in some ways the US can be to the UK.

Standing on the shoulders of giants has its privileges.  Thank you Romans and Brits.

Quote
...whereas your Clinton will take relief of any tart in a black dress!

There are plenty of us across the pond who would disown him if we could

Quote
the USA didn't enter the WW2 until Pearl Harbour was bombed in 7th December 1941 and F.D. Roossevelt declared war on 8th December 1941.
Just like the WW1, they didn't enter it until 1916 !!

Please forgive us our late entry.  We were under the impression that you guys could mop up your own continent.  Then again, you WERE handicapped with the French.
 

blakestyger

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #6 on: 18/10/2008 21:36:23 »
The French didn't take part - they were occupied.
 

Offline JimBob

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #7 on: 19/10/2008 17:07:33 »
The French didn't take part - they were occupied.

Having a late dinner doesn't count.

Blake and Make it Lady, yes I agree and it was the UK that won the 2nd Worldwar which they entered when it actually started on 3/9/1939 but as history tells us all that:
as history tells us all that:

The USA didn't enter the WW2 until Pearl Harbour was bombed in 7th December 1941 and F.D. Roossevelt declared war on 8th December 1941.
Just like the WW1, they didn't enter it until 1916 !!

But if we hadn't kept you Brits in supplies from '39 - '41 - loosing sailors and ships in the process - the war would have been over before before we had to finally bail you guys out.
 

Offline rosalind dna

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #8 on: 19/10/2008 17:52:41 »
The French didn't take part - they were occupied.

Yes, Blake so was Belgium, Holland, Spain, Italy, Eastern Europe were occupied with of course the exception of Germany

Also Britain's mainland was never invaded but the Channel Isles were invaded by the Germans.
 

blakestyger

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #9 on: 19/10/2008 18:28:07 »
Not wishing to seem pedantic but Spain wasn't occupied and Italy was an active ally of the Germans - part of the Axis forces.
 

Offline that mad man

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #10 on: 19/10/2008 18:37:30 »
But if we hadn't kept you Brits in supplies from '39 - '41 - loosing sailors and ships in the process - the war would have been over before before we had to finally bail you guys out.

The USA was paid well for those supplies and ships and that debt was only just paid off by the UK. All new technology that was developed during that period was also given away free to the USA by the UK. The post USA economy boomed after the war from the commodities it SOLD to its allies and from the important technology the USA STOLE from Germany.

Bailing us out would have been an act of compassion, this was no bail but profit motivated?

Thank god the UK was not conned into fighting along in a war that the USA had no chance of winning.. "Vietnam"

 

blakestyger

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #11 on: 19/10/2008 19:13:25 »
Quote: Thank god the UK was not conned into fighting along in a war that the USA had no chance of winning.. "Vietnam"

Instead, for reasons I still can't fathom, we couldn't wait to fall in behind Bush and attack Iraq - also unwinnable, as is Afghanistan and, should it come to it, Iran.

In fact, when you look back, almost all American intervention since WW2 has been disastrous - Korea, 'Bay of Pigs', Grenada, Somalia, Iranian hostages snatch, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Collectively, we have forgotten the first rule of conflict 'Occupiers are never welcome'.
« Last Edit: 19/10/2008 19:15:37 by blakestyger »
 

Offline rosalind dna

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #12 on: 19/10/2008 22:47:18 »
that mad man
It was the Germans who had in effect sold the A Bomb to the USA via Oppenheimer.

Great posts too.
 

Offline Ray hinton

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #13 on: 19/10/2008 23:23:35 »
As an ex british soldier, i worked closely with the us forces, up untill maggie and ronnie, it was great to work with the us troops, as we wore a noticably different uniform, and worked in a different fashion to the american troops.
the british soldier was respected the world over, and not seen as an occupier, (and true occupiers are never welcome)and always tried to make friends, right down to having cups of tea with the locals, ( that all stopped when we started getting acid tea instead of water in ulster )Then our tactics and aims seemed to change, agressive patrolling, wearing kevlar helmets, (same as us troops ) and not our familiar beret, ive also noticed a dissolving of discipline and standards in general of the army, its about time we became the uk defence force and stopped fighting wars for nothing, bring our young people home and let them live a healthy long life, we need the public behind our troops, also the media, instead of all the negative press that our service men and women dont deserve (jump jet chicken is one example )and for god sake dont break our ties with the US, we should have joined the states and not europe, were closer to washington than Hawaii is, if the us had not given us logistic support in 2 world wars, i dread to think what language we would be speaking, i for one am glad of our special relationship with the us, i just wish the air fare was lower !
 

Offline JimBob

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #14 on: 21/10/2008 02:44:09 »
As an ex british soldier, i worked closely with the us forces, up untill maggie and ronnie, it was great to work with the us troops, as we wore a noticably different uniform, and worked in a different fashion to the american troops.
the british soldier was respected the world over, and not seen as an occupier, (and true occupiers are never welcome)and always tried to make friends, right down to having cups of tea with the locals, ( that all stopped when we started getting acid tea instead of water in ulster )Then our tactics and aims seemed to change, agressive patrolling, wearing kevlar helmets, (same as us troops ) and not our familiar beret, ive also noticed a dissolving of discipline and standards in general of the army, its about time we became the uk defence force and stopped fighting wars for nothing, bring our young people home and let them live a healthy long life, we need the public behind our troops, also the media, instead of all the negative press that our service men and women dont deserve (jump jet chicken is one example )and for god sake dont break our ties with the US, we should have joined the states and not europe, were closer to washington than Hawaii is, if the us had not given us logistic support in 2 world wars, i dread to think what language we would be speaking, i for one am glad of our special relationship with the us, i just wish the air fare was lower !

I must agree with ALL Ray has posted. Until Korea, America had politically tried to avoid war at all costs. Somehow our military success went to our head and we started trying to export democracy at the point of a gun. We forgot about political solutions being the preferred means of dispute resolution.

But, regretfully, there were just two problems with the above argument: Stalin and Mao.
 

Offline that mad man

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #15 on: 21/10/2008 12:07:23 »
blakestyger

Dont forget Iraq and Iran have oil to steal and Afghanistan has a new 1000 mile oil pipeline going across it territory, Vietnam and Korea had none. Coincidence, I think not.

Rosalind

Germany had little on-going development as far as the Atom bomb was concerned. Even though Heisenberg and others penned out the first nuclear pile it caught fire so none was productive.
Germany never managed to produce any plutonium for a bomb as Germany's main priority was for conventional weapons and developing an Atom bomb was too expensive. The USA now had most of the top scientists and also the money to develop a Bomb so the Manhattan project was developed. The fact that the German facilities was bombed was kept from the scientists for fear that they may then refuse to work on developing a bomb.

Oppenheimer was conned into something he and other scientist did not really want to do and that was to make a bomb. Oppenheimer was not a happy man because of it.
"I have become death, the destroyer of worlds"

 

Offline rosalind dna

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #16 on: 21/10/2008 14:47:40 »
Alright but only the Americans have ever dropped an Atom Bomb and not forgetting that's why they won't bomb Iran as it is a nuclear state. I don't sgree with that anyway.

Not only do the Americans have the most Nuclear warheads/missiles in the world and like some other countries who have never had
the IAEA (UN nuclear investigators) as they've not signed up the
agreement namely Israel, US, UK

 

Offline Evie

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #17 on: 21/10/2008 15:40:00 »
Alright but only the Americans have ever dropped an Atom Bomb and not forgetting that's why they won't bomb Iran as it is a nuclear state. I don't sgree with that anyway.

Not only do the Americans have the most Nuclear warheads/missiles in the world and like some other countries who have never had
the IAEA (UN nuclear investigators) as they've not signed up the
agreement namely Israel, US, UK



Actually, Russia has more nuclear warheads than the U.S., but we are a close second on that one. Fortunately, both of the aforementioned are part of the NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty) and many of the warheads are in stockpiles awaiting decomissioning. The reason for U.S. and Russia having so many more warheads than other countries is of course a result of the Cold War.

I'm confused about the second part of your statement. Are you saying the US and UK (and Israel) are not a part of the IAEA? That is incorrect.
« Last Edit: 21/10/2008 15:45:16 by Evie »
 

Offline syhprum

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #18 on: 23/10/2008 09:52:20 »
My reccolection of the war was that by 1943 we were in effect occupied by American troops if fact some of them are still here and there are places where they will apprehend you at gun point
 

Offline rosalind dna

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #19 on: 23/10/2008 11:51:28 »
Evie maybe the Russians do have more nuclear warheads than the
Americans but they've never dropped an atom bomb in anger YET !

Also the UK are still paying the Americans back for the money
that they lent the British more than 60 years ago.
That must be one of the longest type of debts EVER.

Including the fact that neither country either won the bloody
war in Vietnam. Only now is that S.E. Asian country beginning to
develop again and become rich.

One of my brother's visits there on work often.
 

Offline Evie

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #20 on: 23/10/2008 14:39:36 »
I'm merely trying to keep the facts straight.
 

paul.fr

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #21 on: 23/10/2008 14:50:10 »
I'm merely trying to keep the facts straight.

Oh dear, this will simply not do. Moderator, MODERATOR!!!
 

Offline yor_on

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #22 on: 09/03/2009 18:23:27 »
Yes?

--
Ah sorry, wrong thread :)
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 18:34:20 by yor_on »
 

MDriver1981

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #23 on: 11/03/2009 19:21:28 »
The British Empire's decline came much much later.  It was after the American and French Revolutions that the empire saw it's great rise.  The 19th century would become the greatest century for the Brits and their empire.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2009 22:35:37 by MDriver1981 »
 

MDriver1981

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
« Reply #24 on: 12/03/2009 04:22:50 »
Comrade rosalind dna, the United States entered World War One in 1917, not 1916. 
 

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The Loss of Empire began 227 years ago October 17th
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