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Offline sorincosofret

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« on: 19/10/2008 18:24:29 »
Masers and quantum hypothesis

Background and actual explanation

It is assumed by actual physics that population inversion corroborate with stimulated emission represents the fundament of masers and lasers working principle. The detailed presentation of masers will be made in Electric currents and Electromagnetic waves book. The present discussion focuses on ammonia and hydrogen masers and consequences of actual interpretation. These particular cases are known as masers with molecular fascicle which use gradients of electric or magnetic fields in order to achieve population inversion.
The first population inversion was achieved in the ammonia molecule, which has an pyramidal form as is presented in fig. 1., with three hydrogen atoms forming the base and nitrogen atom situated in the head of pyramid. 
According to quantum mechanic, the nitrogen atom can oscillate perpendicular on the plane of the hydrogen atoms. As result of this oscillation the ammonia molecule can have two different configurations. If the curve of potential energy between the nitrogen atom and plane of hydrogen atoms is figured, two minima are obtained (fig. 1), corresponding to the nitrogen atom equilibrium position related to the hydrogen atoms plane.




Figure 1.  Nitrogen atom positions relative to hydrogen atoms plane and potential energy variation

For those interested, there is a detailed quantum description of these states of ammonia molecule in Feynman lecture, vol III ( for those who are believing that I'm a begginer in the physics domain, too). From practical point of view, it is important to highlight the existence of two states and the possibility of ammonia molecule to emit electromagnetic radiation when passes from upper level to low level. 
    Population inversion is established by physical separation of molecules in the upper quantum state from those in the lower quantum state. Therefore, a beam of ammonia molecules is passed through a system of focusing electrodes which generate a inhomogenous quadrupolar electrostatic field in the direction of the beam. Molecules in the lower quantum state experience an outward force and rapidly leave the beam and those in the upper quantum state are focused radial (inward) and enter into the cavity resonator. When microwave power of the appropriate resonant frequency is passed through the cavity, amplification occurs due to the population inversion. If the output power emitted is sufficiently large, self-sustained oscillations results.
The emission of electromagnetic waves by ammonia molecule is explained as result of nitrogen atom oscillation through the plane of hydrogen atoms, and the molecule switch from the upper level to the lower level of energy.
The hydrogen maser works after a quite similar principle. A fascicle of hydrogen molecule is dissociated to hydrogen atoms and these atoms are directed into an inhomogeneous hexapole magnetic field and only atoms in certain energy states can pass through. Further the atoms enter into a resonant cavity and when an external resonant energy is provided, excited atoms drops on the lower energy level, releasing the photons of microwave frequency. These photons stimulate other atoms to drop their energy level, and they in turn release additional photons and in certain conditions a self-sustaining microwave is appearing.
According to quantum mechanic, the hydrogen maser utilizes a transition between two ground state level (F=1, mF =0) and (F=0, mF =0) of atomic hydrogen, with a frequency of 1,42GHz
For hydrogen atom these transition means a flip of electron magnetic moment as is figured in fig 2.



Figure 2. States of hydrogen atoms according to quantum mechanics
 
As result of these flip the microwave radiation is released in conformity with Planck equation.


Why the actual explanation is erroneous…..


It is necessary in a first step to evaluate the effects of a quite equal microwave energy frequency in the up presented cases. 
In case of hydrogen atom the microwaves produce only a flip of electron magnetic moment as in fig. 2; the electron during and after this interaction continue to move around nucleus. The microwave radiation is not strong enough to move the electron from its orbit or to break the interaction between nucleus and electron.
But what’s happened in case of ammonia molecule?
Quite the same microwave frequency produces an unimaginable result.  An entire atom (electrons and nucleus) is pushed from a position to another position as indicate in fig 3.






Figure 3. Microwave – ammonia molecule interaction

As is shown in fig. 3 as result of microwave energy with frequency , the nitrogen atom should receive a momentum great enough, and as result of this gain, it will pass through hydrogen atoms in a symmetrical position, on the other face of hydrogen atoms plane.
It is possible to accept as real this nitrogen atom change of position?
If we keep the proportion and translate the phenomena to the real world it is similar to saying that a fly knock a car and the car is forced to leave the road.
If a correlation between effects of microwaves and X-ray photons is made, other vexatious problems appear looking in the frame of quantum mechanics.
An X-ray photon is able to liberate electrons from a material. Why X-ray is not able to liberate an entire nucleus?  Why a microwave field is able to move an atom but is not able to liberate an electron from a material?
If a microwave is able to move an atom, it should be observed how an X-ray or gamma ray, with a greater energy, should expel an entire nucleus.
The answer is very simple: an X-ray does not have enough energy to do this job.
 On the other hand, does anyone asks how is possible for an atom (with its layers of electrons) to jump in a single step from one position to another position? For a simple electron, when make a jump between two layers it can be admitted, according to quantum mechanic, the single step movement. For an entire atom it is quite impossible to have a single step process.  Up to date, there are no scientific texts which treat in detail this subject – quantum atomic jump – so the quantum theoreticians can use their imagination in order to fill this void. 
In proposed theory as was already highlighted the quantum hypothesis is ruled out. In the same time there is a correlation between energy of incident radiation (electromagnetic waves or corpuscular photons) and the observed effects.
In proposed theory there is a completely different approach of microwave–matter interaction; the subject will be detailed in Electromagnetic wave and electric currents book.
In an appropriate microwave field (resonance condition must be fulfilled), a flip of spin electron magnetic moment can explain the observed phenomena. In a first step a break between spin and orbital magnetic moments is performed, followed by a flip of spin magnetic moment from one direction to an opposite direction as is presented in fig. 4. Due to the linkage between spin magnetic moment and spin movement a change of the spin rotation is counted.


Figure 4. Effect of resonant frequency microwave over spin magnetic moment

The movement of electron outside its orbit or the movement of an entire atom as result of microwave-matter interaction is to fantasist to be real; in proposed theory this possibility is eliminated.   

« Last Edit: 20/10/2008 08:52:26 by sorincosofret »


 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #1 on: 19/10/2008 19:05:56 »
As is shown in fig. 3 as result of microwave energy with frequency , the nitrogen atom should receive a momentum great enough, and as result of this gain, it will pass through hydrogen atoms in a symmetrical position, on the other face of hydrogen atoms plane.
It is possible to accept as real this nitrogen atom change of position?
If we keep the proportion and translate the phenomena to the real world it is similar to saying that a fly knock a car and the car is forced to leave the road.
If a correlation between effects of microwaves and X-ray photons is made, other vexatious problems appear looking in the frame of quantum mechanics.
An X-ray photon is able to liberate electrons from a material. Why X-ray is not able to liberate an entire nucleus?  Why a microwave field is able to move an atom but is not able to liberate an electron from a material?

Because in the case of masers you have resonance between two oscillatory phenomena; something like the fact a voice's sound can break a glass or that a wind can break a bridge, so even a very little push, repeated, in phase, for a great number of cycles, will result in a high amplitude of oscillation (classical case) or energy transfer (quantum case); in the case of electromagnetic radiation hitting an atom or an electron, it's true that x-ray radiation can hardly push an atom (and so, microwave radiation couldn't do it at all) but the effect is completely different in this case: it's Compton Scattering.
« Last Edit: 19/10/2008 19:08:53 by lightarrow »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #2 on: 19/10/2008 21:23:38 »
"If we keep the proportion and translate the phenomena to the real world it is similar to saying that a fly knock a car and the car is forced to leave the road. "
A better, though still bad, analogy would be that of a car balanced on the edge of a cliff. A fly landing on it could tip it over.
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Re: Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #3 on: 20/10/2008 06:35:19 »
The text was posted in order to observe the difference between effects of quite equals photons over different atomic species. The actual explanation for ammonia molecule inversion is without any meaning.
A microwave does not have enough energy to move an atom.
The resonance phenomena (as is studied in experimental classical mechanics and electronics) has nothing to do with ammonia masers.
It is imppossible for a atom to resonate and to emit only one photon back. When the atom (or even an electron ) resonate, this means a oscillating movement around a equilibrium position. This means at every oscillation a photon of lower energy is emitted.
Practically at a excitation with a microwave photon, it should appear as result a spectrum of microwave and radio (megahertz, and kilohertz) photons.
Does this happened?
NO.
In this case please provide a mechanism for this resonance or leave it aside.
In the same time it is impossible physically for a atom to make a quantum salt from a position to another symmetrical position. If the quantum electron salt ,, can be accepted" the atomic salt NO.
Why the same resonance does not work in infrared domain (using eventually other molecules)? Maybe there are different phenomena ...
There will be a second post (from about 300 prepared) with the difference between masers and lasers working principle, so  ....wait a little bit...
« Last Edit: 20/10/2008 06:37:18 by sorincosofret »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #4 on: 20/10/2008 06:55:35 »
Go and look up time dependent perturbation theory in a good quantum mechanics textbook.
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Re: Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #5 on: 20/10/2008 07:47:24 »
Can you have a single theory able to explain at least one phenomena or any phenomena has 100 explanations looking from the imagination of some theoreticians?
 

Offline lightarrow

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #6 on: 20/10/2008 18:06:29 »
The text was posted in order to observe the difference between effects of quite equals photons over different atomic species. The actual explanation for ammonia molecule inversion is without any meaning.
A microwave does not have enough energy to move an atom.
The resonance phenomena (as is studied in experimental classical mechanics and electronics) has nothing to do with ammonia masers.
It is impossible for a atom to resonate and to emit only one photon back. When the atom (or even an electron ) resonate, this means a oscillating movement around a equilibrium position. This means at every oscillation a photon of lower energy is emitted.
Practically at a excitation with a microwave photon, it should appear as result a spectrum of microwave and radio (megahertz, and kilohertz) photons.
Does this happened?
NO.
In this case please provide a mechanism for this resonance or leave it aside.
The "resonance" paradigm (which I explicitly defined as "classical") was to show how even a big mass can acquire high kinetic energy through vibration. Instead, if you want to give it kinetic energy through a collision with a photon, you have to use a photon with at least as much momentum as the one you want to transfer to the atom, and this is impossible even for x-rays; if you want to stop a truck with a tennis ball, you'll never be able to do it. If, instead, you hung up the track with ropes and you hit it with tennis balls at th right moment (in phase with the oscillation), after many cicles you will be able to move it at high speeds; no-one told you that a single photon in a maser is made of a single electromagnetic wave; for what we know (and sincerely, I don't know), it could be made of thousands or billions of waves; all this however it's certainly nothing else that an intuitive way of interpreting the mechanism.
Quote
In the same time it is impossible physically for a atom to make a quantum salt from a position to another symmetrical position. If the quantum electron salt ,, can be accepted" the atomic salt NO.
Why the same resonance does not work in infrared domain (using eventually other molecules)?
But the rotational levels of molecules are usually just in the infrared, so you can excite and so accelerate atoms with infrared radiation; would you say that physics is erroneous even in these cases?
« Last Edit: 20/10/2008 18:10:08 by lightarrow »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #7 on: 20/10/2008 20:07:37 »
It's generally the microwave spectrum that deals with rotational levels ; vibrational levels are in the IR.
But the point still stands.
We know from a whole bunch of experiments that microwaves move molecules- probably the best know is heating stuff (for example food) in a microwave oven.

In order to show that current physics is wrong Sorin needs to demonstrate that nobody has ever used a microwave oven. I feel that he is unlikely to succeed and should give up on this tack.
 

lyner

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #8 on: 20/10/2008 22:44:07 »
Quote
It is imppossible for a atom to resonate and to emit only one photon back. When the atom (or even an electron ) resonate, this means a oscillating movement around a equilibrium position. This means at every oscillation a photon of lower energy is emitted.
So that's the whole of absorption spectroscopy, Compton scattering and even reflection at a metal surface killed off at a stroke.
When will we learn?
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #9 on: 21/10/2008 05:45:17 »
Up to date I have found a single book which recognise a situation not really pleasant for actual science. The book is Electronics through experiments by E T Glass, 1966 Centrex Publishing company- Eindhoven.
In the Overview is writthe:
A distinction may be made between macrocosmic electricity, which employs as working hypothesys arbitrarily divisible electric charges, electrical and magnetic dipoles and certain experiences relating to the properties of materials, and microcosmic electricity, which uses ,,unit particles" as working hypotheses. The real nature is unknown. In describing the majority of hitherto essential phenomena in electricity, however, the terms ,,electron" has been found to be an extremely useful working hypothesis, valuable for development.

The entire electricity and magnetism is build on this ,,working hypothesis". But, now a new hypothesis is already formulated and is more consistent with experimental reality.
Of course there are a lot of persons interested in maintaining actual working hypothesis form various reasons. Some of them are already known physicists with a consistent number of published papers or books; other are teachers close to the retirement, etc.
How would they admit that a peaked unknown Romanian without perfume of Harvard or Cambridge is able to change a entire edifice of physics?
I have put the experimental proofs that the electron working hypothesis is a fake but the reaction of forum readears was completely different from the expectations.
Instead of repeating the experiments (banal experiments made home), and after that to contest or to admit the reality of proposed experiments, great part of them speak without sense (using the same old hypothesis).
A microwave  is not able to move any molecule from a material. A microwave transfer a specific energy only to electrons and therefore the heating effect appear.
The same thing is valid for IR. A IR photon (which a particle) is not able to rotate a molecule as result of impact with this.
Why should I accept that in case of ammonia a microwave heat the material as result of nitrogen atom bungee-jumping and in case of hydrogen the same microwave heat by another mechanism. Because if the maser device is leaved aside, ammonia absorb microwave at a certain frequency and the same to hydrogen.
More then that,if someone look at the simple evidence of hydrogen spectrum, does not need further confirmation.
IR photon produce only a electron jump from an orbit to another orbit and this jump is consodered quantified. This means the entire energy of photon is accepted by electron and the nucleus does not receive anything. The IR photon is not able to rotate a simple hydrogen atom. If the nucleus receive a part of this energy, in this case the entire quantum mechanics fail.
Why should I admit that for simple atom or molecule like hydrogen, an IR photon produce a electron jump, and in case of complex molecule an IR photon (quite the same energy) produce a entire rotation of the molecule. For a exact science it is necessary to be consistent in their conclusions and not to falsify the result.

 

Offline Bored chemist

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #10 on: 21/10/2008 07:10:51 »
"A microwave  is not able to move any molecule from a material."
No matter how often you say it, that's still bollocks.
Rotational spectroscopy proves you are wrong and so does microwaving a TV dinner.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #11 on: 21/10/2008 08:12:38 »
It's generally the microwave spectrum that deals with rotational levels ; vibrational levels are in the IR.
Thanks for the correction.
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #12 on: 21/10/2008 13:01:10 »
BC, the next post (again a on off switch post and few neurons ) will clear you some ideas about charge acceleration and radiation (especially microwave).
 

Offline lightarrow

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #13 on: 21/10/2008 13:37:08 »
Up to date I have found a single book which recognise a situation not really pleasant for actual science. The book is Electronics through experiments by E T Glass, 1966 Centrex Publishing company- Eindhoven.
In the Overview is writthe:
A distinction may be made between macrocosmic electricity
If it really says "macrocosmic electricity", I wouldn't trust very much that book.
Quote
, which employs as working hypothesys arbitrarily divisible electric charges, electrical and magnetic dipoles and certain experiences relating to the properties of materials, and microcosmic electricity, which uses ,,unit particles" as working hypotheses. The real nature is unknown. In describing the majority of hitherto essential phenomena in electricity, however, the terms ,,electron" has been found to be an extremely useful working hypothesis, valuable for development. [/b]

The entire electricity and magnetism is build on this ,,working hypothesis".
Does it refer to XIX century physics? Because Quantum Electro Dynamics was developed and finished during the 30'...
Quote
But, now a new hypothesis is already formulated and is more consistent with experimental reality.
Of course there are a lot of persons interested in maintaining actual working hypothesis form various reasons. Some of them are already known physicists with a consistent number of published papers or books; other are teachers close to the retirement, etc.
How would they admit that a peaked unknown Romanian without perfume of Harvard or Cambridge is able to change a entire edifice of physics?
I have put the experimental proofs that the electron working hypothesis is a fake but the reaction of forum readears was completely different from the expectations.
Instead of repeating the experiments (banal experiments made home), and after that to contest or to admit the reality of proposed experiments, great part of them speak without sense (using the same old hypothesis).
A microwave  is not able to move any molecule from a material. A microwave transfer a specific energy only to electrons and therefore the heating effect appear.
The same thing is valid for IR. A IR photon (which a particle) is not able to rotate a molecule as result of impact with this.
Can you make me a favour? Could you propose this idea in the italian forum "it.scienza.fisica"? There are university teachers of Physics (even of Theoretical Physics) who sometimes attend that forum. I'm curious to see what they could answer you.
« Last Edit: 19/12/2008 12:41:48 by lightarrow »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #14 on: 21/10/2008 18:48:48 »
BC, the next post (again a on off switch post and few neurons ) will clear you some ideas about charge acceleration and radiation (especially microwave).
No it didn't. It's wrong too.
 

Offline sorincosofret

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #15 on: 21/10/2008 22:00:50 »
The real electronic has nothing to do with quantum hypothesis. In some books of electronics, formally a short introduction about quantum theory is provided. But in real applications ( and I knew enough electronicians) the quantum idea is absent.
The book is very useful from a educational point of view... and is focused on the practical aspects.
I don't have enough time (for the moment) to post messages on multiple forums.
I have sent some ,,papers" for a feedback and I haven't received nothing.
 

lyner

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
« Reply #16 on: 21/10/2008 23:14:57 »
Quote
The real electronic has nothing to do with quantum hypothesis.
Have you ever read anything of semiconductor Physics? I would say that that is the ultimate 'real electronic'. The rest of Electronics is systems engineering and uses simplified models, which work, of course. But semiconductor devices are quantum devices and you can't explain their behaviour n any other way.

You should try to avoid making such sweeping statements until you know a bit more!
 

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Do masers respect quantum hypothesis?
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