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### Author Topic: Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?  (Read 3077 times)

#### sorincosofret

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##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« on: 26/10/2008 12:12:46 »
The principle of independent action of electric currents and electric charges

Experimental part

A simple circuit containing a Van der Graff device, a neon (fluorescent) tube and a source of direct current (fig 1) is made. Depending on the type of VDG, it is necessary to adapt the length of gas tube. In my case, I found that a tube with a length up to 60 cm is suitable; with a tube up to 30 cm the visual effects are more evident. An old recovered source of DC used at a inkjet printer with 18 V and 1,5 A output was used.

Figure 1. Experimental circuit details

With the switch K and P in open position both ammeters indicate zero currents in circuits.
With K open and P closed both ammeter indicate zero currents because the tube has insulator comportment.
With K closed and P open the ammeter connected to null point indicate a current of about 0.75 microA. Depending on the length of tube, for small tubes (less then 10 cm) a continuous flickering of the tube can be observed too.
Leaving P closed and switching K on and off from time to time in case of large tube (about 10 seconds intervals), or leaving the K closed for small tubes, both ammeters detects a current flow. In the direct source circuit, the ammeter indicates a current of amperes order, and in the VDG device circuit a current up to 1 microA.
Nothing interesting up to this moment ….
But let’s change the polarity of direct continuous source (fig. 2) and let’s see what’s happen.

Figure 2. Modified experimental circuit details

With P closed, when K is closed or switched on–off, the current of ampere size appear in the direct source circuit too.
Because the entire circuit is large it is difficult to have a photo with details of the entire circuit. But if someone will contest the results I will make these photos in order to avoid any misunderstanding.
In a first series of experiments both electric current from direct source and ,,electric current” from VDG were applied direct on the electrode tubes. In order to avoid a ,,setup error",  in a second round of experiments, both electric current from DC source and ,,current” from VDG were applied to a conductor with length of about 1 m and this was connected to gas tube. In this arrangement, there is a conductor traveled by both currents as indicate in fig. 3. In this case there it was created the possibility to have a ,,mix” of these currents.

Figure 3. Pre ,,mix” of electric ,,currents” details

Despite of this improvement, the experimental results are the same.

Results interpretation
For the circuit presented in fig. 1, there are no problems to be explained in actual accepted electromagnetism. With the accepted formalism of electric current sense, in the tube there is a adding of electric current coming from DC source and of ,, current “ coming from VDG device. There is a little bit inconsistent with the experimental reality, the possibility of a current of few microA to initiate the current flowing through both circuits, when a current of amperes is not able to do that.
The real discrepancy appears when the polarity of source is changed as in fig. 2. According to Kirchhoff's First Law, at any junction in an electric circuit, the total current flowing into the junction is the same as the total current leaving the junction.
How is possible to not have an electric current through circuit when only DC source is connected, and to have an electric current when a part of these current is withdrawn?
Because, when VDG is connected into circuit, the electric current flowing through gas tube is lower then electric current furnished by DC source alone.
I leave to actual elites of physics the pleasure to invent an explanation.
For proposed theory, a charge movement is completely different from an electric current and this idea must be stated as a principle of physics. Therefore in proposed theory, the VDG device produces gas ,,ionization", independent on the existence or inexistence of electric current. When gas is ,,ionized", there is free path for the DC current to flow into circuit.

In order to avoid a false interpretation, more precisely, the VDG device acts first and produce the gas ,,ionization" and after that the current of DC source has free path to flow, the circuit was modified as was presented in fig. 3. The Kirchhoff's first Law does not give any details about junction and from what distance of junction the law applies. Implicitly this means at a distance of 1 mm from junction the law acts, and the resultant current is the difference of added currents. In the experiment, in order to avoid ,,this junction effect”, both ,,currents” were mixed in advance in a 1 m conductor length and after that applied on the gas tube.
The results are surprisingly: after 1 m of premix, the tube is lightening; the effects of VDG device are independent of the effects of an electric current, and the high potential is applied on the tube independent on the existence of electric current.
In the book the principle will be generalized taking into consideration the fact that electromagnetic waves are different phenomena from electric currents and electric charge displacement.
« Last Edit: 26/10/2008 12:19:11 by sorincosofret »

#### Bored chemist

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##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« Reply #1 on: 26/10/2008 14:29:24 »
18 Volts is rather more than the ionisation potentials of the argon and mercury vapour in most fluorescent tubes.
Once you start the current flowing by field ionisation with the high potential from the V DeG you can maintan that current with the 18V power supply. the lengths of the wires have nothing to do with it.
This isn't new.
Why are you asking about it?

#### sorincosofret

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 204
##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« Reply #2 on: 27/10/2008 15:30:44 »
I was thinking there is a discussion between specialists. but it seems to be a low level lesson on physics.
Let's explain the experiment like for a beginner student.
Having the circuit from fig.1.1, according to actual electricity, the formal positive charge run in the upper part of circuit, respectively, the negative (real charge) run in the lower part of circuit. The gas tube is a insulator, so the current does not flow through it.

Figure1.1 Gas tube acting as insulator
When a ,,positive” potential coming from VDG is applied on the conductor with formal positive charge, it can be ,,admitted that this shock can produce a change in the tube comportment. More precisely, this positive potential can force the electron to fly through the gas tube (fig.2).

Figure 2.
It is a non convincing supposition but it is not the case to insist on it, because the absurdity of the actual interpretation can be observed when the polarity of source is changed, or when the positive potential from VDG is applied on the conductor with real *negative electrons charge) as in fig. 3.

Figure 3. Change of polarity
In this case, according to actual laws of electricity, a neutralization of charge appear, there is no high potential remaining to be applied on the gas tube and the tube does not permit a current flow.
The reality is completely opposite to this prediction of actual electromagnetism.

Please, put a  little bit imagination in your answer...

#### lyner

• Guest
##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« Reply #3 on: 27/10/2008 15:57:41 »
Quote
I was thinking there is a discussion between specialists.
Is there anything in which you do not consider yourself a specialist?

No contact is needed between the VDG and the tube circuit. If there is a high enough potential gradient (electric field) to cause just a hint of ionisation of some of the gas in the tube then some conduction will occur and the tube will 'strike'.  Whichever end you apply your EHV field you will be swamping the small voltage from the battery. In any case, are you sure that the voltage on your VDG is positive? Have you measured its polarity?
And how is all this 'new'?
Are you proposing yet another new explanation for a commonplace phenomenon?
Where are you getting your information about "actual electricity" and "actual electromagnetism"? Read a good book and you should get all the (quantitative) information you need, to help you with this. But, if you are a specialist, you should know all about this anyway.

#### sorincosofret

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 204
##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« Reply #4 on: 27/10/2008 17:48:08 »
If the charge coming from VDG is negative, the situation remain the same .. it is not difficult to observe. In order to avoid complication I don't put the charge sign verification.
Of course, there are other more complex experiments and it will be necessary to have this experimental fact.

If the hint of potential is able to act at its own maybe is necessary to exist a new theory of ,,potential hints."
What is the intensity of this potential hint?
Did you feel the intensity of a current produced by a wool pullover ?
In few weeks,  your wish will be fulfilled: other common phenomena are reinterpreted.
I don't think you have read even in your imagination so many books like me in reality. Of course I've read all, not only good  books. In order to have a opinion it is necessary to know everything about a subject up to date.
Before making recommendation, make a visit to a library ...

#### sorincosofret

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 204
##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« Reply #5 on: 30/10/2008 04:18:13 »
One operator should move this post to ,,new theory" section. I have tried to do myself, but It seems I don't have this right.
All experiments regarding electrostatic need reinterpretation. The concept of ,,charge" is taken into discussion.

#### Bored chemist

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##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« Reply #6 on: 30/10/2008 06:59:47 »
No new theory has been put forward. No evidence of a problem with the current theory has been produced.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Does a electric current overlap over a charge displacement ?
« Reply #6 on: 30/10/2008 06:59:47 »

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