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Author Topic: How did birds evolve?  (Read 27141 times)

Offline BenV

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #25 on: 07/11/2008 09:47:40 »
You've got hung up on the species thing again.  Species are irrelevant to evolution, they're just arbitrary lines drawn by people.  Usually we draw these lines along something sensible, like the ability to breed together, but they're still arbitrary lines.  Try to stop thinking of species as separate, immutable, and more that all life on earth is a genetic continuum.

You accept that there is evolution within a species, well if you took two populations of that species and allowed them to evolve separately, you would eventually wind up with differences so strong that they could be defined as two different species.  That's how easy it is for new species to form.
 

Offline Don_1

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #26 on: 07/11/2008 11:07:13 »
BenV, blakestyger, BC and others, don’t get drawn into this argument.

Asyncritus has a one track mind. He displays a fundamental misunderstanding of the process of evolution and is determined to argue on the subject at every opportunity. I, for one, will not rise to his constant barrage of 'this disproves evolution' threads again. He has been indoctrinated with creationism and is only here to try to do the same to us. He fails to see that he is getting nowhere with his ridiculous arguments.

Asyncritus. Stop surfing the web for anti-evolution articles and posting them here. No matter how stupid some of us may act at times, we all have the intellect to be able to make our own decisions on the subject of evolution Vs creation. You are wasting your time and ours, and trying my patients into the bargain.

I am an atheist, but that does mean I go onto religious sites and denounce the creation. It would be rude and crass to do so. I am sure the people on such sites also have the intellect to decide on the matter of creation Vs. evolution, and have done so to their satisfaction. Take your posts to these sites, where they may be more appreciated.

Of course, you could, since this is a science forum, post something scientific but not related to evolution Vs. creation. Try it, you may find it enjoyable.
 

blakestyger

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #27 on: 07/11/2008 16:47:48 »
... if you took two populations of that species and allowed them to evolve separately, you would eventually wind up with differences so strong that they could be defined as two different species.  That's how easy it is for new species to form.
That's exactly what has happened to the wagtails across Europe.

Don_1 I agree, but at the same time I live in hope that something will eventually get through. This sort of attack does try everybody's patience so I will take your advice - he can be a bit abusive too.

 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #28 on: 08/11/2008 16:34:59 »
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You've got hung up on the species thing again.  Species are irrelevant to evolution, they're just arbitrary lines drawn by people.  Usually we draw these lines along something sensible, like the ability to breed together, but they're still arbitrary lines.  Try to stop thinking of species as separate, immutable, and more that all life on earth is a genetic continuum.

You accept that there is evolution within a species, well if you took two populations of that species and allowed them to evolve separately, you would eventually wind up with differences so strong that they could be defined as two different species.  That's how easy it is for new species to form.

Ben,

I do fully accept that microevolution takes place. It's visible everywhere.

I do accept that a certain amount of speciation does, and has, taken place.

But GG Simpson, a heavyweight evolutionary palaeontologist, said that it is hopeless to try and find transitions at and above family level, and that is only 2 levels up from species.

To translate that into comprehensible terms, he is saying that the ostriches, the family Struthionidae, and the gulls, the family Laridae, are so far apart that it would be impossible to find transitions between them. And the same is true for all the families and taxons above that, and I'm only using the birds as a sample here.

There are 2 serious problems here, aren't there.

1 Not only new families, but whole phyla suddenly appear in the Cambrian. There is simply not enough time for the gradual process you describe to have occurred.

2 The article which I began this thread with, said words to the effect that the whole evolutionary tree had to be rejigged, so now, where are we?

If I was a chemist, and somebody came along and showed that the whole periodic table was wrong,with many elements in the wrong place, I would, I think, be in despair - because all of my learning, and teaching, would be badly mistaken, and I would have serious doubts about Mendeleev's brain power.

Doesn't this information cause you to at least flicker an eyelid?
 

Offline Asyncritus

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #29 on: 08/11/2008 17:12:54 »
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Asyncritus. Stop surfing the web for anti-evolution articles and posting them here. No matter how stupid some of us may act at times, we all have the intellect to be able to make our own decisions on the subject of evolution Vs creation.


The decisions ought to be made on the basis of information, not prejudice. When I arrived here first, everybody was having a go, deriding and mocking intelligent design. The first thread I joined was "Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?", and everybody was nodding sagely and saying yes, yes, what a stupid idea. Maybe my joining the forum has had a moderating effect on such attitudes. But I don't know. What's certain is that nothing else like it has been started since then.

When I started to question severely, immediately hackles were raised and so it has gone on.

Let me remind you that this is the Naked SCIENTIST Forum - and a scientist is someone who has some knowledge of the physical sciences. I certainly do, and I imagine others on the forum do so also.

A scientist really ought to have an open mind, and as Huxley said long ago, 'hold his theories with a light hand, and be prepared to abandon them in the light of new facts.'

That is not the attitude being displayed here.

Any questioning of evolution theory is being treated as heresy, and you react like priests hunting blasphemy. This is most reprehensible - because if the theory has any strength in it, it will be able to survive severe questioning and criticism from the knowledgeable.

If it can't then it is best abandoned, don't you think?

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You are wasting your time and ours, and trying my patients into the bargain.

It depends on how you define time wasting. I note that the threads I have been involved in have total readers' views of over 7,000. The number of actual contributors is quite small, AND THEREFORE THERE IS CONSIDERABLE INTEREST IN WHAT GOES ON IN THEM.

I think it is my duty to inform such readers about facts which they would not otherwise know about. The fact that they keep coming shows much interest - whether favourable to my case or not I wouldn't know.

The quite disgraceful and continuing sort of comment like yours (above), must speak volumes to them. Why don't they answer his questions, they might be saying. Why are they reacting so violently, may be another. Don't they have an answer to that point? may be a third.

Never forget that there  :)uncommitted readers - and your collective attitude must make them wonder about the strength of your case. Do it some credit, and answer seriously, as Ben is doing, to his credit.

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I am an atheist, but that does mean I go onto religious sites and denounce the creation. It would be rude and crass to do so. I am sure the people on such sites also have the intellect to decide on the matter of creation Vs. evolution, and have done so to their satisfaction. Take your posts to these sites, where they may be more appreciated.

Exactly what I was just talking about. I would certainly join an atheistic forum very willingly - but I don't get the impression that this is one. Agnostic is probably more like the truth, and I would like those people to at least hear the other side, and not dismiss it as nonsense out of hand.

Because it isn't, as your difficulty in finding adequate answers is demonstrating quite convincingly.

Quote
Of course, you could, since this is a science forum, post something scientific but not related to evolution Vs. creation. Try it, you may find it enjoyable.

If cosmology is a science, then I fail to see how biology is not. The origin of the universe is what they consider, and the origin of species is what we are considering here.

Most people are concerned about, and interested in their possible origin and their certain end. I would be happy if I can help with regard to the first.
« Last Edit: 08/11/2008 17:15:57 by Asyncritus »
 

Offline _Stefan_

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #30 on: 09/11/2008 02:08:22 »
Our hackles are being raised by your ignorance and stupidity. There's really no point wasting our time trying to teach you anything or explain the phenomena you question, because you don't listen. You're blinded by your ideologies.

It is extremely clear that you do not understand evolution or the scientific method. If you did, you would not be saying such stupid things. The sad thing is that the information is already available for you to learn, but you reject it off hand.

Creationism is not science.

Your ignorance is no basis to reject 150 years of scientific investigation.

Please stop wasting web space with your ideas and go actually learn something instead.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #31 on: 10/11/2008 00:18:33 »
Our hackles are being raised by your ignorance and stupidity. There's really no point wasting our time trying to teach you anything or explain the phenomena you question, because you don't listen. You're blinded by your ideologies.

I think that you have demonstrated absolutely no ability to refute/disprove the points I'm making.

In this last case I was merely quoting a very big reported study, and raising what seems obvious questions. If you can't see the logic, then that's your deficiency.

If you can see the logic, then reply like an intelligent human being instead of an intellectual porcupine.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #32 on: 10/11/2008 03:36:31 »
Arguments based on ignorance are invalid, dear "porcupine". If you knew anything, you wouldn't be making them so incessantly.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #33 on: 11/11/2008 17:48:59 »
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Arguments based on ignorance are invalid, dear "porcupine".

Is that why you aren't raising any?
 

Offline _Stefan_

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #34 on: 11/11/2008 20:25:06 »
Are you really that thick? Please return with some creationist arguments that are actually worth responding to. In other words, don't come back.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #35 on: 12/11/2008 13:31:20 »
Sorry pal, you can't get rid of truth that easily.

Why don't you stop reading my posts and go bury your head in the sand someplace?

Tricky, though. Leaves a dangerous part of the anatomy exposed.
 

Offline BenV

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #36 on: 12/11/2008 13:46:25 »
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The first thread I joined was "Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?", and everybody was nodding sagely and saying yes, yes, what a stupid idea. Maybe my joining the forum has had a moderating effect on such attitudes. But I don't know. What's certain is that nothing else like it has been started since then.

This thread was started on October 22nd - http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=17805.0

And I said there what I have said before, intelligent design is not a scientific hypothesis, it is a philosophy.  There can be no sensible debate between ID and evolution.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #37 on: 12/11/2008 19:50:05 »

I think that you have demonstrated absolutely no ability to refute/disprove the points I'm making.

Odd that, I thought that your point was that an error in the science of taxonomy made a difference in how we should interpret a whole bunch of othre facts.
I also thought someone had pointed out thst science learns amd moves on. Finding an error, even a major one, in the taxonomy of birds doesn't mean that the whole of science is wrong. It proves that science as a whole is right. It seeks to find errors so it can correct them.
Science is still standing and taxonomy is a bit better than it was.


Just as soon as religion grows up and realises it has got some things utterly wrong then it will be reasonable to compare the two.
 

Offline wannabe

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #38 on: 13/11/2008 12:09:07 »
Scanning through this long exchange, as it seems to get more acrimonious the longer it goes on, I fail to see anyone addressing the point originally raised. The diversity within a species as centered on the birds (beautiful flamingo pic) is being discussed from the perspective of evolution whereas most argumentation brought to the fore addresses what seems to me is adaptation. Evolution would discuss the coming about of birds prior to their existence, such as the era of the dinosaurs during which they reportedly did not exist.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #39 on: 13/11/2008 14:26:40 »
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The first thread I joined was "Do intelligent design ideas make you wince?", and everybody was nodding sagely and saying yes, yes, what a stupid idea. Maybe my joining the forum has had a moderating effect on such attitudes. But I don't know. What's certain is that nothing else like it has been started since then.

This thread was started on October 22nd - http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=17805.0

And I said there what I have said before, intelligent design is not a scientific hypothesis, it is a philosophy.  There can be no sensible debate between ID and evolution.

Ernst Mayr:

"The basic framework of the theory is that evolution is a two-stage phenomenon: the production of variation and the sorting of the variants by natural selection. Yet agreement on this basic thesis does not mean that the work of the evolutionist is completed. The basic theory is in many instances hardly more than a postulate and its application raises numerous questions in almost every concrete case.    Populations, Species and Evolution  (1970)  p. 6
 

Offline wannabe

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #40 on: 13/11/2008 14:34:08 »
And once selected, further variation occurs through adaptation.
And on intelligent design the following. All designing is apparent by being aware of the inherent intelligence of what has been designed. Inherent intelligence of organic molecules, absent in the inorganic variants of molecules.
 

Offline Asyncritus

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How did birds evolve?
« Reply #41 on: 13/11/2008 14:38:18 »
Quote from: Asyncritus on 10/11/2008 00:18:33

Quote
I think that you have demonstrated absolutely no ability to refute/disprove the points I'm making.

Odd that, I thought that your point was that an error in the science of taxonomy made a difference in how we should interpret a whole bunch of othre facts.

That is quite true. If there's got to be a re-vamping of the whole shoot, then to me that says there was something fundamentally wrong in the first place.

The question is: what?

As I said, the whole classification system was based on the concept that evolution did take place, notably cladistics (though even that is coming under fire nowadays).

If the whole thing has to be revamped, then that, IMHO, calls in question whether the evolution idea needs throwing overboard with all its offshoots, such as the classification system.

If the branches are dead, that is a strong indication that the root and trunk aren't in too good shape either. The death of a tree begins to be seen at the tips of the branches. Here are these guys saying that the whole tree needs rejigging.

I don't know how you guys think, but something as fundamentally wrong as this seems to be, should be ringing very loud alarm bells in your heads. There's little point in repainting a ceiling when the leak in the system hasn't been repaired. Maybe a new tank is needed.
 

Offline A233M

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #42 on: 31/07/2012 23:06:14 »
This is an excellent ectract from Harun Yahya's team

newbielink:http://harunyahya.com/en/Makaleler/3381/The_myth_of_bird_evolution [nonactive]

"The Unique Structure of Avian Lungs
 
Another factor demonstrating the impossibility of the reptile-bird evolution scenario is the structure of avian lungs, which cannot be accounted for by evolution.
 
Land-dwelling creatures have lungs with a two-directional flow structure. Upon inhaling, the air travels through the passages in the lungs (bronchial tubes), ending in tiny air sacs (alveoli). The exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide takes place here. Then, upon exhaling, this used air makes its way back and finds its way out of the lung by the same route.
 
In birds however, air follows just one direction through the lungs. The entry and exit orifices are completely different, and thanks to special air sacs all along the passages between them, air always flows in one direction through the avian lung. In this way, birds are able to take in air nonstop. This satisfies birds' high energy requirements. Michael Denton, an Australian biochemist and a well-known critic of Darwinism, explains the avian lung in this way:
This one-directional flow of air is maintained in breathing in and breathing out by a complex system of interconnected air sacs in the bird's body, which expand and contract in such a way as to ensure a continuous delivery of air through the parabronchi… The structure of the lung in birds, and the overall functioning of the respiratory system, are quite unique. No lung in any other vertebrate species in any way approaches the avian system. Moreover, in its essential details it is identical in birds. (6)
The important thing is that the reptile lung, with its dual-direction air flow, could not have evolved into the bird lung with its single-direction flow, because it is not possible for there to have been an intermediate model between them. In order for a living thing to live, it has to keep breathing, and a reversal of the structure of its lungs with a change of design would inevitably end in death. According to evolution, this change must happen gradually over millions of years, whereas a creature whose lungs do not work will die within a few minutes."
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #43 on: 06/08/2012 00:57:09 »
Will you ever get to grips with the basics of evolution?

       
I am assuming you know that Natural Selection is not the only method for advancement.  Origin of species was written in 1859, and Darwin did not know about DNA, RNA, Genetic coding, etc.  DNA was not discovered until 1869, and they did not begin to realize it stored information until 1927, and even still in 2012 scientists are still finding out so many new discoveries about it.

  You see, organisms evolve by the following means.

  Natural Selection
  Migration ( Genetic Flow )
  Genetic Drift
  and my person favorite -
  Mutations..  ( No way Darwin knew about these )


    Mutations can be spontaneous or induced. they include, but are not limited to the following.

  germline mutation / somatic mutation  / somatic hypermutation / mutagenesis / small and large scale mutations /
  cladogenesis / anagenesis /

there are 6 types of mutations

 harmful / beneficial / neutral / deleterious / advantageous / nearly neutral.

 scientists are still learning so much from this process, that to draw specific conclusions until all of the evidence is found, is premature.   


 
 

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Re: How did birds evolve?
« Reply #43 on: 06/08/2012 00:57:09 »

 

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