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Author Topic: Why is the universe asymmetrical  (Read 28816 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« on: 11/11/2008 16:48:37 »
Greetings


The universe is asymmetrical in that of it consists almost completely of normal mass, matter and energy. "This is lucky for us" as Symmetrical universe of equal amounts of matter and antimatter would have resulted in a universe of pure energy of Gama rays, no planets, stars, galaxies, just radiant energy.

The big bang theory suggests that equal amounts of matter and antimatter should have been created at this event. But this did not happen

Why??

Alan


 

Offline LeeE

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #1 on: 11/11/2008 19:34:13 »
Because.  Further details to be supplied when known ;D

It could be down to quantum effects where, although statistically everything should have been equal, nothing ever exactly matches the statistics because we can only compute probabilities and not certainties.  The degree of correlation is extremely high, but then the degree of asymmetry required was extremely low.
 

Offline that mad man

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #2 on: 13/11/2008 03:20:43 »
In a sense its the attractive force of gravity that keeps matter together. Perhaps the antimatter was formed but had a repulsive gravity and quickly dissipated or changed form. Antimatter has been created at CERN but is very short lived.

Maybe that's why gravity is just an attractive force and the reason why there is no anti-gravity around.

Just a thought from a moment ago. :)
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #3 on: 13/11/2008 07:44:28 »
that mad man

Quote
In a sense its the attractive force of gravity that keeps matter together. Perhaps the antimatter was formed but had a repulsive gravity and quickly dissipated or changed form. Antimatter has been created at CERN but is very short lived.

Maybe that's why gravity is just an attractive force and the reason why there is no anti-gravity around.

Just a thought from a moment ago.


And a very good thought at that, from a very sane man  ;D
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #4 on: 13/11/2008 09:00:35 »
Perhaps the antimatter was formed but had a repulsive gravity and quickly dissipated or changed form.

Maybe the space fairies stole it.  ::)

It is commonly thought that antimatter is subject to ordinary gravity. However, this has never been experimentally proven and there are some theories which predict that matter and antimatter should fall differently due to other, as yet unknown, forces, However, in these theories antimatter would still be attracted by gravity, not repelled; it would just be attracted a bit differently.

As for it having changed form; antimatter should behave exactly the same as matter but with an opposite charge. Therefore, if antimatter changed form for some reason then matter should also have done so.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #5 on: 13/11/2008 09:59:31 »
Doctor Beaver,

What about gravitons and antigravitons?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #6 on: 13/11/2008 11:24:09 »
What about them?
 

Offline yor_on

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #7 on: 13/11/2008 16:14:50 »
Could 'anti gravity' then have fled into the 'fourth dimension' becoming???
And no, I'm definitely not sane here:)
But it would be cool for a SF..
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #8 on: 13/11/2008 16:58:13 »
The 4th dimension is time. I assume you meant a 4th dimension of space.

That would involve constraining antigravity to a single dimension. All theories that involve extra spatial dimensions have gravity acting in all of them. If antigravity is the same as gravity, but repulsive rather than attractive, then it too should work in all dimensions and have the same strength as gravity. That clearly is not the case or the 2 forces would balance each other out and nothing in the universe would have aggregated to form planets, stars, galaxies etc.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #9 on: 13/11/2008 19:55:50 »
Ah!! We see them here we see them there these strange and weird superstring. These particles if the exist are millions of times smaller than quarks, they have only one dimension, width  but no length or the reverse and when we find the gritters they will/might answer everything and at last T.O.E

Maybe they have something to do with our asymmetrical universe as the might bind quarks to gravitons etc etc

They are the ultimate superglue or so it seems

Alan
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #10 on: 13/11/2008 23:36:08 »
Well, shamefully i will admit that I was referring to time.
And I will insist in that it would have been a cool Sf, with lots and lots of possibilities.
And if someone disagrees I will blame it on 'Mad mans' ah, impressive depth of imagination:)
Hah...
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #11 on: 13/11/2008 23:47:45 »
most models of the big bang assume that the universe started with an equal amount of matter and antimatter and that almost all of it annihilated very early on in the expansion to produce a great deal of electromagnetic radiation.  however there is a slight asymmetry in the decay of the B meson which is currently being intensively studied.  this results in a small amount of normal matter remaining.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #12 on: 14/11/2008 00:02:12 »
Ian - do you have a link to any blurb on that B meson decay? Preferably not something that's all maths. In something I was reading there was a passing reference to it, much as in your post, and I'd like to know a bit more about it.
 

Offline LeeE

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« Reply #13 on: 14/11/2008 01:53:18 »
Gravity and anti-gravity shouldn't really be considered as opposites.  It's like saying that the opposite to filling a bucket from a tap is pouring the water out or making a hole in the bucket to drain it.  While the different actions might achieve opposite results, the true opposite to a tap filling the bucket with water would be an anti-tap that sucked the water out.
 

Offline that mad man

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #14 on: 14/11/2008 03:11:34 »
I don't mind, you can blame me ;D

But, to be honest I know little about antimatter and that was just a quick on the spur though.

It is commonly thought that antimatter is subject to ordinary gravity. However, this has never been experimentally proven and there are some theories which predict that matter and antimatter should fall differently due to other, as yet unknown, forces, However, in these theories antimatter would still be attracted by gravity, not repelled; it would just be attracted a bit differently.

That's just a big a mess.

Commonly thought, subject to ordinary gravity but not proven, should fall differently due to other, as yet unknown, forces, it would just be attracted a bit differently.

In other words its just guesswork!

If the charges are reversed then one should take into account the possibility that gravity in antimatter could also be reversed. If so then antimatter would not exist for long and it don't. It seems odd to me to think that the gravity part of antimatter would not be reversed when the rest is.

What I'm saying I suppose is that when antimatter is created so is anti-gravity and when that happens the antimatter breaks down into energy. Its unstable, whereas normal matter is stable.

I will now shut up and have a read up on the subject as its now also got me thinking about dark energy/matter.  :)

 
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #15 on: 14/11/2008 03:36:09 »
It's a bit more than just guesswork. Those theories aren't just the result of random thoughts slung haphazardly together. They are consistent and cohesive but, as yet, they have not been scientifically verified. The same can be said for other theories that are "doing the rounds", especially where string theory is concerned.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #16 on: 14/11/2008 07:44:54 »
Soulsurfer and others,

 

Quote
most models of the big bang assume that the universe started with an equal amount of matter and antimatter and that almost all of it annihilated very early on in the expansion to produce a great deal of electromagnetic radiation.  however there is a slight asymmetry in the decay of the B meson which is currently being intensively studied.  this results in a small amount of normal matter remaining

If there were truly equal amounts of matter, antimatter at the moment of creation big bang, the question remains why did the early universe not covert all this into radiant energy. As science believes it should have

The universe is not how physics says it should be, somehow it is asymmetrical instead of symmetrical, luckily for us and due to this fact we exist

It is the lucky Goldie Locks effect again and if life just based on this lucky enigma

Alan
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
« Reply #17 on: 14/11/2008 10:22:55 »
Beaver man;  Just Google "B meson" (including the quotes) it will give you lots of good references.  I haven't got one that I would particularly recommend at the moment.  B meson factories are very popular with the high energy physicists while waiting for the LHC to come on line.

this one seems to be quite readable  http://www.physics.uc.edu/~kayk/cpviol/CP.html
« Last Edit: 14/11/2008 11:37:42 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #18 on: 14/11/2008 13:05:13 »
OK. Thanks, Ian.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #19 on: 14/11/2008 16:24:20 »
Ian

Interesting link, thanks, but the question still reamains unanswered.

Like you said the LHC might bring us closer to the answer

Alan
 

Offline LeeE

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« Reply #20 on: 14/11/2008 17:46:01 »
Just another thought about anti-gravity...

If anti-gravity acts as a repulsive force, will this have the opposite effect to time dilation?  That is, the rate of time is highest for an infinitely distant observer where the gravitational field is infinitely small and this could be considered to be the base-line rate of time.  The actual rate of time in the universe will always be lower than the base-line rate of time because the gravitational field everywhere in the observable universe is greater than infinitely small.  However, if anti-gravity increases the rate of time, then as one approached an anti-matter black hole, time would pass more quickly and you'd start getting some very weird energy results.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #21 on: 14/11/2008 18:39:34 »
Just another thought about anti-gravity...

If anti-gravity acts as a repulsive force, will this have the opposite effect to time dilation?  That is, the rate of time is highest for an infinitely distant observer where the gravitational field is infinitely small and this could be considered to be the base-line rate of time.  The actual rate of time in the universe will always be lower than the base-line rate of time because the gravitational field everywhere in the observable universe is greater than infinitely small.  However, if anti-gravity increases the rate of time, then as one approached an anti-matter black hole, time would pass more quickly and you'd start getting some very weird energy results.

I don't like the thought of that 1 little bit
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #22 on: 14/11/2008 18:42:00 »
Yes Lee,

Gravity varies from place to place in the universe so there is no absolute universal time, if the universe is infinite and eternal maybe there is a place unimaginably far removed to be totally uneffected by   mass , matter and any forms of energy, a place of "absolute total empty nothingness", where time may even advance at an unimaginable rate.

But is time tangled up with space and light?


As time moves slower on massive objects on the most massive object, the big bang singularity, where the mass was infinite time stood still, did it not

Is this something like what you meant in your post? Anti gravity is still theoretical as far as I know

Alan

 

Offline Alan McDougall

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« Reply #23 on: 14/11/2008 18:45:46 »
DoctorBeaver

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I don't like the thought of that 1 little bit

Why??  ;D

Be kind, gentle and loving  ;)
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #24 on: 14/11/2008 20:02:26 »
Just another thought about anti-gravity...

If anti-gravity acts as a repulsive force, will this have the opposite effect to time dilation?  That is, the rate of time is highest for an infinitely distant observer where the gravitational field is infinitely small and this could be considered to be the base-line rate of time.  The actual rate of time in the universe will always be lower than the base-line rate of time because the gravitational field everywhere in the observable universe is greater than infinitely small.  However, if anti-gravity increases the rate of time, then as one approached an anti-matter black hole, time would pass more quickly and you'd start getting some very weird energy results.

I knew there was something bugging me about that and it's just clicked.

Gravitational time dilation is due to the curvature of spacetime. The greater the curvature, the greater the dilation. Gravity produces that curvature. So antigravity would produce anticurvature. And what is anti-curvature? It's flat. In flat spacetime there is no time dilation.

HA... get out of that 1!

 

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Why is the universe asymmetrical
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