The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Science vs. Religion  (Read 28141 times)

Offline Tronix

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Science vs. Religion
« on: 08/03/2005 15:51:54 »
Ever since Copernicus put the earth in orbit of the sun, religion and science have seemed to be at odds. One defines the world through faith in the general nature of things, a blind jump into the unknown with eyes closed, courage full, and heart open and sure. The other proceeds through the world with open eyes and a questioning mind, seeing through its own eyes what happens in the world and using what he or she knows already for sure and imagination to make sense out of it all, a light in the darkness of the unknown making all things clear one solved mystery at a time, and assuming nothing.

These two forces of society and humanity seem to be at odds. Current Science is loathe to accept even the possibilty of the possiblity of spirits, magic, mythic creatures, gods, and all things it cannot see or prove easily, where as religion is willing to throw all logic and observation out the window, chalking the movement of all things up to the fickle whims of an invisble entity of mysterious power, questoning nothing.

but this are only my assumptions really. i want to know how the two really see eachother. my girfriend is a faithful wiccan, and has told me of her encounters with the supernatural and strange and magical. And i believe her, and at least in the possiblity of things beyond our kening, beyond our laws of physics. And at the same time, she embraces my path of knowledge, eating up my unentertaining lectures on the nature of living things and tolerating, no, encouraging my insatiable hunger for understanding and knowledge. And i wonder, in our lives will we be punished for our partnership. Will i be called crackpot for my search for the supernatural side of life, and will she be shunned becuase of her fratranization will a logically minded faithless scientist, whom must have proof and reason for everything.

Anyone else wonder what i wonder? Whom here has religion in there lives wheter Christian, Buddhist, or Wiccan, or whatever, from you, parents co-workers, or girlfriends. Anyone have "faith" in a theory, conviction in a method, courage in a question (or an answer?)

But the real question is, What do you believe in and what do you know without proof, and how does this co-exsist with what you know, and what you question and wonder at?

Important quotes from important people

"Hey my chocolate bar melted!" Percy L. Spencer
« Last Edit: 09/03/2005 18:51:41 by Tronix »


 

Offline Ultima

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • My Homepage
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #1 on: 08/03/2005 18:38:55 »
quote:
the real question is, What do you believe in, what do you know without proof, and how do is co-exsist with what you know, and what you question?


The following is “Ultima on Religion:” WARNING RANT!!!:D

I might save this for the next time someone asks “so erm, what faith are you?????”

Question everything, take nothing for granted. Only personal belief is important, what anyone else thinks is great but you don't have to conform (i.e. I’m against large organized monolithic religeons, which rely heavily on blind faith). You can be spiritual without taking everything literally, humans are an emotional animal; as such we have the power of imagination... I can easily imagine a world full of fanciful creatures that can be related to how I perceive the real world (In fact I often think this way for working out complex algorithms in computer science); but that doesn't make them exist. Take how the East lean towards mysticism, and they often believe some one who has accomplished much in life becomes a god in death, that’s more of a social function of remembrance and celebration for that person than the literal idea that they are a “God”. Spirituality and Religion are definitely separate things. I look at nature around me and can’t help but feel in awe of its beauty. That doesn’t mean that because it’s so beautiful I must credit that to some all powerful super being, that for some inane reason also takes a personal interest in everything everyone does. I also have more confidence in myself and other people to inherently know the right thing to do morally, and not rely on being spoon fed some gibberish that’s been rehashed and regurgitated for several thousand years. The biggest thing I wonder about is how people don’t realize they yearn for the freedom of personal belief, take Christianity there are so many flavors of it the mind boggles, everyone jarring to be heard over the other to be more correct in the interpretation of the bible. Why can’t everyone believe what they want and accept everyone else is going to do the same? I think you will find the world would be a happier place. Science to has people taking various stances at different times, the difference is that everyone is heard and their views considered and the most feasible and provable model is chosen, if something doesn’t fit its amended or totally redone. Not dragged on for centuries with no growth or change to fit society.

The anger in my writing comes from narrow minded people constantly telling me I’m evil for not jumping to the nearest religion at hand. I was once told by a Greek Orthodox lady that I was going to HELL because my parents did not have me christened (They were refused by the church because they didn’t attend), I was about seven years old at the time. Another great example recently was when a gang of young Jehovah’s Witnesses (Two girls my age with young children) knocked on my door and talked to me for about 45minutes about what they believed and what I thought. They quoted scripture and told me what they thought it meant. I didn’t have the heart to tell them I pretty much believe the opposite to what they wanted to hear; considering I give blood and want my organs harvested on my death. They went into detail of how we are now in “THE END OF DAYS” and that I had better sign up sharpish otherwise Jehovah will personally come down and smite me for not conforming, banishing me to hell and giving everyone else heaven on Earth. Heaven on Earth I gather from the pamphlet center fold that they gave me, is set in the Alps where only white blond hared people are allowed… hmmm sounds familiar some how. I just nodded lots and said “yeah that sounds great” hoping they wouldn’t catch on, luckily they didn’t. I now kind of wonder what they would have been like if I came to their door trying to persuade them their whole life is a sham and they MUST believe what I believe. I don’t think they would have said “yeah that sounds great”. If anyone here is a devout JW don’t hesitate to debate this with me, I’m always open to hearing about someone’s religion and belief system, just don’t expect me to take it to heart. Plus why is it that I know a fair bit about various religions but lots of people with “faith” don’t bother to delve into science or even other faiths, are they that scared that their faith will be shattered that easily???

In conclusion I have learned from experience that most religion is about: guilt, fear (mostly about death), and wanting to “fit in” where there is no obvious justification for existing. My theory is: WHO CARES!!! You die because living forever means that people couldn’t be born, who would deny a baby a life? Who wants to live forever? Why fit in, be as outlandish as you like so long as you don’t harm anyone. AND WHY OH WHY make people take on the guilt of something that possibly happened over 2000 years ago, or the guilt of not conforming and making them doubt themselves with scare tactics such as hell or a “soulless” wandering in death.

http://www.pantheism.net/

LOL that went on for ages :D


wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 08/03/2005 18:41:23 by Ultima »
 

Offline IAmAI

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
    • http://users.aber.ac.uk/das3
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #2 on: 08/03/2005 20:24:02 »
I used to be a Christian. I think the reason why was something Ultima mentions: "Only personal belief is important, what anyone else thinks is great but you don't have to conform...". I was brought up in a Christian family and I was simply too young to make my own observations and make my own decisions about reality. Basically, I trusted my Christian family and friends. But (I realise this more on reflection) something didn't seem right: Although I enjoyed going to church, meeting up with my Christian friends, I rarely felt motivated to read the Bible and pray, like I was supposed to as a Christian. I rarely 'felt' God like lots of Christians claim to have done, and the times when I felt like I did, it was probably my own emotions rather than any supernaturally induced feeling.

About 4 years ago, when I started Sixth form, I started using the Internet more. Actually, I used the Internet a fair bit prior, but it doesn’t really matter. I started playing the video game, Deus Ex. It was so good I thought I would check out a forum. I started posting on Forum Planet’s forum, newbielink:http://www.forumplanet.com/planetdeusex/ [nonactive] and soon became part of the community there. Amongst the discussions about the game, there were ones like this one; people discussion religion. I found such discussions very interesting, and I contributed as a Christian… at first. I gained a taste for these kinds of discussions and often participated when I could. I believe the discussions inspired me to become a broader, more opened minded, more objective thinker. I started applying thought to my own beliefs and not just those of other people, not assuming them futile without good reason (as some believers don’t). I eventually came to the conclusion that the possibility of God (or a god of any kind) not existing (and everything that goes with it), is feasible. Although, still believed the opposite (that God could exist – and I still do so, currently), nothing was certain and so I felt could no longer be a Christian.

Now I take things just as Ultima suggests: Assume nothing and question everything – I believe there’s nothing to lose doing that, as long as you’re prepared think about things, and I enjoy doing so. I hope one day that perhaps I will be able to come to some kind of conclusion of my own, regarding what origins of the universe and whether there is more to our tangible existence, based on logic and reason, using evidence as the substance for the reasoning, rather than assuming or wishing for anything. If I don’t, if it is impossible to do that, I shall still remain the open minded, objective thinker that I now am.

Thanks to Ultima for pointing out the thread. Hope he finds this interesting.
 

Offline Ultima

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • My Homepage
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #3 on: 08/03/2005 20:41:30 »
Welcome to the forum IAmAI. Or should I say Dan from the same Uni as me ;)

It's good to hear that not everyone with a religious background takes everything purely on faith.


wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 08/03/2005 20:42:53 by Ultima »
 

Offline gsmollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 749
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #4 on: 09/03/2005 11:04:25 »
In religion, the basic tenents are taken as articles of faith. There is no proof, even unscientific. In other words, you can never see God.

In science, there are no basic tenents. All things must be proven, which means that they must be demonstrable to others. You must be able to see God.

Yet is is not hard to argue that more people believe in religion than in science. Why would this be? This is a subject that has been covered in the literature, but I will add my simple observation, although it is without scientific proof: People are afraid of their own mortality. Religions all provide immortality, through the creation of an afterlife, in another universe that we cannot observe from here. The promise of immortality is the basis of all religion, and the reason humanity believes in it.
 

Offline xardra

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/the_circle_of_isis/index.html
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #5 on: 09/03/2005 19:03:39 »
Alrighty, you guys may want to know that i am tronix's girlfriend and i am a wiccan and i have a lot of faith in my religion. but i don't take it all verbatum,  creation myths dopn;t make sense to me, science has always fascinated me since i was a baby, but religoin was forced down my throat (i was brought up as a catholic) now you can't take everthing as is from "holy" books, there are reasonable ecxplinations of what really happend, and they make more sense that the "vengeful god/ loving god" thing.

i don';t care what tronix says, i loved science before him, i want to know how and why.

but you all seem to be seeing things from a christian perspective, my religion is  about peace, not fear or anger... you don't need a religion, but as humans we want to belive in something, a relioin or a scientific fact that could be disproven....

oh by the way hi!

Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
 

Offline gsmollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 749
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #6 on: 09/03/2005 19:31:55 »
Welcome Xardra! Well now we have a couple, Tronix and Xardra. I hope those aren't your real names. It would make Moonbeam and Chynna seem ordinary. But seriously, folks, we hope you enjoy this discussion forum. We normally discuss only scientific topics, but I think fringy things are tolerated well, as long as they are interesting.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2005 19:33:05 by gsmollin »
 

Offline Ultima

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • My Homepage
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #7 on: 09/03/2005 23:28:10 »
xardra, do you believe in reincarnation, karma (not sure what the Wicca specific terminology is), and that your soul resides in Summerland in death, to reflect on past lives before starting a new?

I think perhaps I should join a religious forum, it's a darn shame that most are specific to one religion, and don’t have a "general religion" thread on them :D

On a science side, if it exists what might a soul be made of I wonder... some strange exotic matter that exists in weird dimensions hidden from view?


wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 09/03/2005 23:31:22 by Ultima »
 

Offline Tronix

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #8 on: 10/03/2005 16:11:08 »
well, thats what i think. assuming string theory is right, on of these dimensions coudl be a spiritual one, where all manner of spiritual forces exsist, perhaps with their own set of physics. But of cousre you would have to define whaty "spirit" really is. perhaps it is some body of energy or matter that transcends to the "physical" dimension and resides within all life, giving it a sort of "framework" for emotion and, thoughts, and maybe even luck. Perhaps its like most religions surmise, a form of "us" on a different plane, unaffected by physical wear and tear or death. An actual form of eternity, or at least an indefinitely long lived entity. Many Many people have claimed spirtual and other worldly experiences, all with proof. And this has been going on, with otherwise sane people claiming it, for thousands of years. There may be something to it.

Yes, im interested in studying the paranormal. so sue me.  It just seems to me that too mnay people have talked about too many diferent but similar event in too many cases for too long in our history to not have at least someone looking into it. if nothign else, we may find something new about our world that nobody thought of by the end of it. i say its worth a gander.

unfortunatley, it doesnot pay well, and enviromental research , another field im interested in, does pay well. so ill do it on the side till i can retire or one of our presidents is dumb enough or interested enough to give paranormal research i nice chunky grant or two.

But thats my wierd belief butting heads with science. As for my stance on religion, i am not as devout as Xardra (no thats not her name, by the way). I find science to suit me better, but i fully support her wonderful religion, especially since i am studying the enviroment, and i absolutley root for everything it supports, love, free-thinking, respect for nature and many other things. As for its coexsistance with my science, hasn't bothered me none. Im still treking along, looking at bugs and eating grass.

"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
« Last Edit: 18/03/2005 03:17:12 by Tronix »
 

Offline Titanscape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #9 on: 10/03/2005 21:08:34 »
I'd say that science is only one aspect of human thought and reason. Another part which is not necessarily based on ancient Greek logic and natural science is 'relational knowing'. As a young man I did have an aweful lot of strange day dreams of Hell and Heaven. I knew it was nonsense. But then I nearly died or so I thought. It is critisised this turning to God only when we need Him. But I began to discipline myself from wicked conduct. I asked Him not to let me die. I repented, fell to my knees and had a relational knowing of Jesus before me, and my conscience became clear. So I had a knowing after a faith, with the element of request or communication.

I then in my lack of knowledge fell happily back into my Catholic faith which I had left from lack of interest... I liked conforming, but found some things didn't give me peace or esteem like I needed them to. So conforming was partly an error.

Guilt was gone from me in a clear conscience and such is offered to all. Ultimately people can't turn to God just from fear of death but need to ask for life and forgiveness, deliverance from evil... as in the Our Father which I prayed then with "Don't let me die". I was also alerting myself to reality with wide open eyes, anti day dreaming.

Instead of using science regarding the paranormal, seek to experience Jesus. Look for a prophet or something like that in an evangelist.

Wicca seems to involve magic and the other spirts as grey magic suggests, dark spirits. They can't enlighten you. They are dead and can't give you life.

Where did the universe come from, matter and dimensions...? Inner reasoning too? If one says Hydrogen than where was that from, and before that and before that and so on. Why did they ancient Greeks who invented logic turn to Paul's Gospel? And Paul died for his mission. The Greeks and Romans looked into the apostles writings and invented a logical approach to understanding God and some people like it. Theology.

Titanscape
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #10 on: 11/03/2005 00:45:21 »
Oh goody more voters !!:D..don't forget to cast your vote , and smile too !!:Dhttp://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=903:)

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
« Last Edit: 11/03/2005 02:36:53 by neilep »
 

Offline xardra

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/the_circle_of_isis/index.html
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #11 on: 11/03/2005 15:57:14 »
i didn't mean to make this a religious discussion. my original intent was to clear up the fact that i have a strong passion for both science and religion. i was trying to say that i had a rather expansive (although not too detailed) knowledge of science.
i'm not saying this to make my dear tronix angry, but i knew a lot before he came along, just because i listen and ask questions dosen't mean that i don't know about the other stuff, i have read more books on quantem physis than he has...so there.....

i think he waqnted to show that we are a struggling couple whose beliefs are very different and we are co exisitng and in love with eachother...



Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #12 on: 11/03/2005 18:37:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by xardra

i didn't mean to make this a religious discussion. my original intent was to clear up the fact that i have a strong passion for both science and religion.

i think he waqnted to show that we are a struggling couple whose beliefs are very different and we are co exisitng and in love with eachother...



AHHHHH...that's so sweet......I'm happy you two are in love dspite adversity that is your own personal opinions........

i think you have clearly demonstrated how any hint at religion in a thread is never really going to be constrained within a few words.....as each post continues , they provide fuel for all of our own individual points of view and it's such a humungous topic that it's easy to see how quickly the tone of a thread can change where Religion is involved. One thing it's always sure to guarantee are almost defensive points of view en masse !!....and that's what I have to say about that.:)

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

Offline gsmollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 749
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #13 on: 12/03/2005 00:32:46 »
That's why you never discuss religion, or politics at a party... or a discussion forum.
 

Offline Titanscape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #14 on: 14/03/2005 15:54:03 »
Sorry about my long post. Just i think relational knowing is as valid as scientific.

Titanscape
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #15 on: 14/03/2005 18:22:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape

Sorry about my long post. Just i think relational knowing is as valid as scientific.

Titanscape


No need to apologise Bren, you have nothing to apologise for, this is a nice healthy thread ;)....write as long posts as you wish...

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

Offline Moonjade1907

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #16 on: 27/03/2005 12:03:29 »
I just got back from a party where we discussed religion vs. science..and both things ask you to do one thing "Believe in the unknown" Religion asks you to believe in the unknown of the past and science asks you to believe in the work that is being done to prove or disprove theories.. I think in my life..I have asked a lot of questions..and even experienced things i cant explain...So I have found what i like to call my "Center" i found a way to believe in science and in religion.. Some people think i am crazy to say that both things have valid points that can be mixed...most say it can't be done..but i disagree...I believe in both...i do not have a "Religion" I was raised as a Lutheran ...but i find the bible very hard to agree with..But like i said..i have seen things that makes me believe in an afterlife...in a higher being...as for science..it explains a lot of the unexplained..I won't go on repeating things that have already been said..I just wanted to say that I believe never stop asking questions..but don't lose your faith! Science and Religion can intermix...if you open up your mind to it...
 

Offline xardra

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/the_circle_of_isis/index.html
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #17 on: 28/03/2005 20:46:39 »
thank you that is what we wnated to say!! huggles to you!!!

Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
 

Offline Tronix

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #18 on: 28/03/2005 21:00:48 »
Exactly our (me and xardra's) point Moonjade (and wlecome by the way). Science and religion are both modes of understanding. One understands by reason, another by faith. A scientist may have faith that his theory is true, which spurs him to find the answer, and a buddihist or wiccan or christian or what have you needs to have some small bits of proof to back up his faith. A possible mix, but not an easy one. But, i dont see why someone cant believe that god sent life on the path to evolution, or that thier is a possibility of ghosts and such.

By the by I and Xardra would liek to thank you for your openmindedness. The world needs more people like you. thnks

--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
 

Offline Ylide

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
    • http://clem.mscd.edu/~mogavero
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #19 on: 29/03/2005 12:41:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by Tronix

Science and religion are both modes of understanding. One understands by reason, another by faith. A scientist may have faith that his theory is true, which spurs him to find the answer, and a buddihist or wiccan or christian or what have you needs to have some small bits of proof to back up his faith. A possible mix, but not an easy one. But, i dont see why someone cant believe that god sent life on the path to evolution, or that thier is a possibility of ghosts and such.



Scientists don't use faith to develop hypotheses.  Say that I believe a mutation on the gene for a certain enzyme is responsible for the development of type 2 diabetes.  As a scientist, I would not have come to this conclusion randomly, by praying, or by seeing someone's face embedded in a potato chip.  I would have come to this conclusion by analysis of known facts about genetics, physiology, and biochemistry.  Now, I would like to test this hypothesis.  I perform a variety of experiments and with the proper controls, I can demonstrate whether my hypothesis is supported or unsupported.  If the data supports the hypothesis and (and here's the tricky part) is reproducible under similar conditions in another lab then I have a nice little theory on my hands.  

The difference lies in that religious hypotheses (there is a divine creator who made everything, he sees all, he knows all, yadda yadda) cannot be tested or proven in any way as of this point in time.  They are believed in because they are passed down culturally across generations and people are indoctrinated into them at a young age.  It's hard to shake a belief in something that's been told to you your entire life that can't be directly disproven by anyone.  

And this is exactly why hardcore scientists and hardcore religious people simply do not get along when it comes to discussing the nature of life, existance, the soul, the universe, or anything that contradicts faith vs. observation.  We think they are stupid and they think we are heathens.  

With that aside, I'm not willing to rule out the existance of some source of energy that drove our universe into motion or even a higher intelligence that designed the physical laws.  But that's as far as I go.  With so many religions out there clamoring that they are the one true faith and the behavior that so many of them exhibit in trying to demonstrate their righteousness, I'm loathe to believe that any of them are even close to the truth.  The Zen Buddhists have a good idea because they admit they don't know crap and are willing to sit and meditate until they figure something out.  That's not the course I'd choose, but at least they're not killing anyone.

This message brought to you by The Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People
 

Offline Tronix

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #20 on: 31/03/2005 06:21:14 »
a good point Yilde. But still, a scientitst may, whether intentionally or not have faith in a theroy. this seems to happen alot in technological and medical advancements. Faith that there is a way to cure polio, for example. i dont know if Jonas Salk prayed for a cure or the intellegence to figure one out, or if he gave more concessions to get on god's good side, or even if he did freaking voodoo rituals to help. But im sure he believed, or even "knew" he could find a cure. There was no solid proof he could find a cure for polio, excpet maybe the logical reasoning that other people figured out cures for other diseases that told him "hey, if they could do it, why cant i?". Still though, technically, if one is defining faith as belief in something that cannot be proven or disproven (at least until its a moot point), then yeah, Jonas likley had faith in his hypothesis. But if it is defined as "knowing/assuming/beileving very strongly that something is true/false without proof", then not many, but some scientists have fatih. No, faith didnt create his theory for a cure, his logic that a disease can be cured becuase other could did, but at least belief, if not faith was involved. Now, HOW he did it, and the detials of the hypothesis (that it could be cured with a "killed" version of the disease, for example) were scientific, based on logic and proof and reasoning and lots and lots of thinking. A scientist can and does generally believe in something about his theroy until its proven or disproven.

Now, generally, scientists may have faith, maybe even in one or two of their theories, but generally they keep it loose and at a minimum. A scientist, whom has faith in gravity pointing away from the center of the earth would be called insane, much less a crackpot, unless he had damn good logic, and then even better proof. A scientist whom has faith in a theory that is disproven will likely be at least upset if not devestated, depending on how much time , energy and money he sunk into it. Thus, a scientist would be wise to also at least believe he could be dead freaking wrong.

    Now, with most religion, its not so easy to disprove them, becuase of the loftiness of the "theories" and that while the basic concepts of the faith rarely if ever change the logic behind them can be picked from anywhere, thus its hard to disprove, and even if it was, they wouldnt care, as proof is not the point of religion, its faith (at least thats my observation).

But as far as i know, Copernicus wasnt persecuting altar boys that thought the earth was at the center of the universe, and Albert didnt kill anyone because of his "faith" in a Gravity/Electomagnetism Unified Theroy. That statement alone can spark a raging fire amoungst people based on what they believe about Unified Theory. Belief, even faith, in his Unified Theory, drove him to search until he died.  

Faith is not (i would hope) used in the proving of a theory, and it should not entirely be used in the creation of a hypothesis, if it has to be used at all (but that would mean it would be a proven theory). But still, for some of the biggest scientific endeavours, one must "believe", without any proof and logic that can be wrong, that this hypothesis or that hypothesis is worth doing. Same for some great technological advancements. Edison tried at least 2000 times to make a light bulb, and he may not have gotten to it if he hadnt have a little faith that there was a way to do it. No praying on the rosary. No invoking the godess. No poking voodoo dolls with heated needles between their legs, just a little confidence in himself and some faith in an effective electrical light device that couldnt be proven until he made it, at which point its moot. That is the "faith" of the scientist and the inventor, while its not not nessesary, it can happen without ruining the whole thing or causing "fundamentalism", and it does happen. And its not so bad to believe in your theory, i think, so long as you believe or realize it could be wrong.



--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #21 on: 31/03/2005 08:34:55 »
Can I just mention Tronix, that when you say a scientist can have faith, you're not meanining that the faith a scientist has means that he/she believes in a god yes ?...you mean that the scientist just believes that the answer to a problem or research will eventually be attained by study and experimentation eh ?...therefore the  Faith a scientist has is just the belief that a conclusion must exist after empirical study.........nothing to do with religion at all eh ?

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

Offline Santi2c

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #22 on: 31/03/2005 09:15:27 »
I totally agree that scientists must have faith to do ANYTHING.  But it is a much more progressive faith than one in God, the end all answer.  Faith in the past, present, and future..  faith that the sun will rise tomorrow because it rose yesterday and the day before that (except in sweden).  I think we're more used to thinking of the word fate as a stubborn, stale thing, I mean that it's associated more with religion and just "trusting", taking knowledge for granted and not thinking too much about it after someone comes up with a reasonable answer.  Scientists don't trust in the same sense, no superstitions, or a god or tribal tale for every phenomenon etc, but there's still a whole lotta trusting going on.  But hey, pythagoras thought the whole world was made out of triangles.. that's pretty out there to me.  I guess you could say that it's a less conservative faith than that of religion.
 

Offline xardra

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/the_circle_of_isis/index.html
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #23 on: 31/03/2005 18:29:54 »
some scientists may say that god will help prove that they are right (weather or not you would call that person a scientist or a nut job is up to you)others will just  have confidence that they have dona all they can to prove that they are right. both rely on the same thing--a blind belief that something will be right or will work. you can test a theory 20000 times and "know" that it is correct. then someone coomes along and does a few experiments then BAM! you're proven wrong. but you had the confidence/faith that you got it that far...

Science and religion are of the same family, but they hate eachother... Family reunions are a nightmare....
 

Offline Tronix

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #24 on: 31/03/2005 18:34:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

Can I just mention Tronix, that when you say a scientist can have faith, you're not meanining that the faith a scientist has means that he/she believes in a god yes ?...you mean that the scientist just believes that the answer to a problem or research will eventually be attained by study and experimentation eh ?...therefore the  Faith a scientist has is just the belief that a conclusion must exist after empirical study.........nothing to do with religion at all eh ?

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!


doink, right on the money. Again, not saying that there is no such thing as a Christian or Buddihist or even Hermetic scientist, but yeah, the kind of faith you mentioned is the kind that many that scientists have, and that relates us in some ways to religion. We both have faith, just not the same way.

--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Science vs. Religion
« Reply #24 on: 31/03/2005 18:34:22 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
 
Login
Login with username, password and session length