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Author Topic: What is holding back electric car technology?  (Read 144510 times)

Offline JimBob

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #125 on: 30/08/2009 15:54:10 »
Quote
New battery Tech out in a few years,  promising 10x's the energy density and fast recharge times,  like 5mins to a 80% charge,
<snip>
Let's believe it when an electric car takes you at the traffic lights and then beats you to London and back.

Will this do?





http://www.teslamotors.com/
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #126 on: 30/08/2009 15:57:43 »
The Tesla is a joke ... Rich kids toy.
 

lyner

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #127 on: 30/08/2009 20:04:33 »
I haven't had one buzz me yet.
 

Offline teragram

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #128 on: 31/08/2009 15:59:00 »
Re the proposal for fuel cell cars as the only viable non-hybrid technology,

I thought that the production of hydrogen for (fuel cells) requires so much energy that it is almost more efficient to burn fossil fuel directly in an I.C. engine. The most efficient way of powering a motor vehicle seems to be by a battery, or perhaps in the not too distant future, capacitor. In environmental terms, energy must come from renewable sources, and this necessity is urgent.

The “Dragon’s Den” T.V. programme made one thing clear - that the financial experts believed that the Bee car was already out of date. I guess this means that other and larger companies are further down the route of bringing automobiles into the 20th (sorry, 21st) century. Disappointing for Mr. Voller, but really encouraging for those of us who can’t wait to see electric cars in large numbers on the roads.

Pumblechook refers to the time when there will be no petrol left. More urgently, I think, when we admit we must stop burning fossil fuels. In either case, do we wait until that time comes, and then say “oh, we ought to think about developing an alternative to the I.C. engine”. Or should we stop trying to rubbish the efforts being made now? Don’t forget, the modern automobile arrived at it’s current state after a hundred years of development. 

As for: “the Tesla is a joke”, look at some of the links to drag racing movies, where the electric car makes fun of roaring, smoking V8’s, proving that an electric motor is a far better device for moving vehicles.
 

Offline JimBob

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #129 on: 31/08/2009 17:15:59 »
The Tesla is a joke ... Rich kids toy.

I was merely exhibiting the state of technology, NOT affordability.
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #130 on: 31/08/2009 19:13:40 »
The electric motor may be a far better device for moving vehicles but it aint no good without a continuous supply of electricity.  I worked out that the Tesla would run flat out on a track for 20 minutes.  Then it takes hours to recharge.   Imagine  a battery powered train.  Half the weight and half of the length of the train would be batteries.
 

Offline teragram

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #131 on: 31/08/2009 20:32:17 »
The electric motor may be a far better device for moving vehicles but it aint no good without a continuous supply of electricity.  I worked out that the Tesla would run flat out on a track for 20 minutes.  Then it takes hours to recharge.   Imagine  a battery powered train.  Half the weight and half of the length of the train would be batteries.

O.K. so we stop wasting time on developing battery powered cars. When the petrol does run out (or we admit the stupidity of continuing to burn it), what do we do? When we finally have to commit the I.C. engine to history, what do we use in it’s place?
 

Offline teragram

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« Reply #132 on: 31/08/2009 20:42:10 »
I worked out that the Tesla would run flat out on a track for 20 minutes.

I think the top speed is more than 120mph, so in 20 minutes it should cover about 40 miles. This is well within the distance of the great majority of commute journeys. However, we don’t normally commute at 120 mph! What we need calculating is the time the battery will last for at somewhat lower speeds, maybe 60 mph, 30 mph, and perhaps the average car urban speed of, is it 20 mph, or is that a bit optimistic?


 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #133 on: 31/08/2009 21:00:37 »
We may have to use electric cars charged with nuclear power but given current battery technology we are going to find them very inconvenient.

I forget the exact figures.  I think the motors are about 150 kW max (about 200 HP) and the battery pack is around 50 kWH hours so ignoring various losses and that completely flattening batteries tends to reduce their life  gives 20 mins at max power.  15 may be more like it. 

 
 

Offline teragram

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« Reply #134 on: 31/08/2009 21:13:18 »
I don't want to drive a car with a 150Kw motor at full speed, neither should anyone else. The important info is still the range possible at more practical speeds. In any case:-At what time in the future should we start development?
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #135 on: 31/08/2009 21:17:48 »
O.K. so we stop wasting time on developing battery powered cars. When the petrol does run out (or we admit the stupidity of continuing to burn it), what do we do? When we finally have to commit the I.C. engine to history, what do we use in its place?

Good question. It would be nice if there were a "silver bullet" solution, but I think we'll have to move forward on multiple fronts. Hopefully battery technology will continue to improve so that we can get greater range in "all electric" mode. There are probably data that shows how more trips can become all electric versus EV battery range. It might be that a range of 100 miles could satisfy 75% of all trips (these are wild guesses!)

That might make a huge dent in gasoline consumption. However, unless there is a breakthrough in battery technology or fuel cell technology, it seems unlikely that we'll be able to eliminate IC engines from a significant percentage of vehicles for quite a while. What we can do though is continue to work to improve hybrid vehicles and also find ways to improve the efficiency of IC engines in hybrid vehicles.

This is a long thread, so if someone already pointed this out, I apologise in advance; for example, the Chevrolet Volt (if it ever makes it to the market) is a bit different from the Toyota Prius in that the IC engine on the Volt only drives a generator. The transmission is "all electric" whether the vehicle is running on battery power, IC engine power or a combination of both. (Unless they changed it recently, the Prius has a mechanical load sharing mechanism.)

One potential advantage of the Volt system is that it's possible to increase the engine efficiency by ensuring that the engine only operates at its most efficient power point. I don't know if the Volt will actually do that or not, but it probably could. Anyway, I'm sure there are many other things that can be done. That's just one example.

Sadly, all the extra "stuff" does add more weight, which works against the designers, and the cost will be passed on to the vehicle owners.

 
 

Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #136 on: 31/08/2009 21:23:32 »
What is the point of a sports car like the Tesla if not driven at near full power?.  Might as well buy a Gwizz. 

As an electric engineer my prefered battery type is the lead-acid now over 150 years old.
 

Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #137 on: 01/09/2009 21:30:07 »
Re the proposal for fuel cell cars as the only viable non-hybrid technology, I thought that the production of hydrogen for (fuel cells) requires so much energy that it is almost more efficient to burn fossil fuel directly in an I.C. engine. The most efficient way of powering a motor vehicle seems to be by a battery...

I think it was me that made this proposal (on the basis that chemical 'fuel' is the only method with high enough energy density suited to onboard storage & fuel cells [FCs] are the most efficient way to transform chemical energy into movement).
I do agree that the current large-scale methods for production of these fuels do not make a particularly overwhelming argument for FCs over battery techs (beyond energy density).
Obviously, hydrogen or (particularly) alcohol fuels can be fractioned from petrol-chems, but this isn't a very sustainable (or environmental) solution.
Apart from this, there are several fledgling technologies that could make FCs more viable.
 

Offline teragram

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« Reply #138 on: 02/09/2009 16:10:40 »
I agree, Peppercorn, that fuel cells are probably the most efficient means of converting chemical energy into movement at the present time.
 

Offline rightcharlie

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #139 on: 02/09/2009 19:08:27 »
anyone have any fresh ideas that might advance the electric car concept?
 
I saw someone was asking about new ideas for electric cars.
Hit a TOTAL stonewall with government with this one; you wouldn't believe how ignored I've been AND I was gifting the idea, I didn't want money.

Anyway, here's the URL to a youtube film about it. Maybe someone will see it...

 

Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #140 on: 03/09/2009 22:10:03 »
anyone have any fresh ideas that might advance the electric car concept?
 
I saw someone was asking about new ideas for electric cars.
Hit a TOTAL stonewall with government with this one; you wouldn't believe how ignored I've been AND I was gifting the idea, I didn't want money.

Anyway, here's the URL to a youtube film about it. Maybe someone will see it...


Hello 'rightcharlie' - nice to have your input on the site!
I think, from watching your vid that you're proposing a simple battery swap scheme. I suggest you read a few of the earlier posts here as this idea has already provided quite a bit of discussion.
Obviously, if you have a new angle on this 'recharging' method that I've missed then I apologise, but it should be noted that one of the major stumbling blocks for electric 'filling' stations is the massive upgrading of the countries electrical distribution network.
 

Offline syhprum

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #141 on: 11/09/2009 13:06:05 »
Until recently the UK was the largest user of electric vehicles in the world, approximately 100,000 were in use powered by NIFE batteries for delivering, bread, milk, etc there are still a large number of small vehicles to enable disabled people to get around.
 

Offline ViscountValmont

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« Reply #142 on: 25/10/2009 11:55:25 »
I understand however that producing hydrogen uses five the power required to charge a battery. 
Though I could admittedly be wrong, I cannot believe that is true. A simple, cheap, chemical process will produce Hydrogen easily. If maybe someone could explain that conversion of power ratios, it would be helpful. However, something else I'd like to say might be a topic changer (though hopefully not)... I think that there has not been enough research into static elctricity. It is easily produced and readily available. I'm aware of it's most common limitations, but I feel they could be overcome. And a lot of its limitations are that of general electricity, such as storing problems of batteries, capacitors, live grid storage, loss of energy while converting its power into other forms, etc. I think that if there were a way of making static electricity viable to make use as an energy source, we would solve many problems we have with producing electricity in the first place, such as high cost energy sources, or worse, unclean ones. At the very least, it couldn't hurt to have it be supplemental. The biggest, most obvious problem is amperage versus voltage in static electricity. LOTS of voltage, little amperage. However, as many-a-problem have been solved by, there is always the quantity over quality maneuver (though usually less preferable) until another solution could be found to increase its more immediate application. If we started taking static electricity from all sorts of sources, it would build up in no time, allotting more amperage. Even static can be used to trickle-charge car batteries. Someone asked on another post if the wheels of a car could be generators, and the answer was invariably no, because of the amount of resistance needed to produce it would cause an ill result in the overall efficiency of the energetic system. BUT, producing static electricity with the wheels doesn't require that resistance. Barely any contact at all with proper materials will create the charge. Look, I'm entirely aware that static elctricity seems antiquated and un-useful, but I'm trying to look to new ideas. Or at least to old ones that have been forgotten and pushed aside. Just like the new idea of using kinetic pads on sidewalks to make use of a large population's walking energy for traffic lights, etc. It is ideas like this that will change the world we live in. Improving efficiency is key in almost everything. I think we're possibly squandering a resource, and sorely lacking in research. If a few new discoveries could be made, there could be HUGE breakthroughs in electric car tech, electricity, and energy in all forms. Lest we forget, we still don't fully understand the lightning bolt... And doing so could provide some unifying pieces of information, allowing us to fill a few gaps in our comprehension of energy and mass.
 

Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #143 on: 25/10/2009 22:32:34 »
Lest we forget, we still don't fully understand the lightning bolt.
Don't we? That's news to me. Can you explain what we don't understand?

I admire your desire to keep exploring & never assume we have learnt all there is to to learn about nature. It is easy to rule out many technologies as old-fashioned & certainly science as a body tends to go through fashions.

However, I would recommend extreme caution in ideas that seem to have been 'overlooked' (or, even more incredulously, suppressed) as a quick-fix solution to our energy needs. 
In 99.999% of cases an idea that appears a missed opportunity has been thought of & analysed a hundred times over!
« Last Edit: 25/10/2009 23:08:01 by peppercorn »
 

Offline teragram

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #144 on: 27/10/2009 17:28:34 »
My statement that hydrogen production requires five times the energy required to charge a battery was later modified to four times.
 

Offline Nizzle

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #145 on: 28/10/2009 09:33:07 »
How about this battery, but then the upscaled version?

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/1825/

 

Offline CliffordK

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #146 on: 11/12/2010 15:09:36 »
Is it possible to get the car moving with battery power then serial loop the alternator/generator to the drive motors then you could drive unlimited ?
Tying an alternator to an electric motor doesn't give you more power.  An alternator may spin freely without load, but under load it takes energy to drive it.

You loose efficiency with both the alternator and the electric motor, and end up with less power than you started.

Regenerative Breaking is effective to recoup kinetic energy when stopping, although there have been problems with efficiency, and how quick batteries can accept charge.

Sorry, no "free lunch".
[Just to confuse everybody 'ecarman' has deleted his post after CliffordK's anwer was given]
« Last Edit: 11/12/2010 17:23:49 by peppercorn »
 

Offline maffsolo

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #147 on: 11/12/2010 23:54:34 »
I worked out that the Tesla would run flat out on a track for 20 minutes.

I think the top speed is more than 120mph, so in 20 minutes it should cover about 40 miles. This is well within the distance of the great majority of commute journeys. However, we don’t normally commute at 120 mph! What we need calculating is the time the battery will last for at somewhat lower speeds, maybe 60 mph, 30 mph, and perhaps the average car urban speed of, is it 20 mph, or is that a bit optimistic?




 120mi|  1 hr  |
--------------- = 20 mi / min
 1 hr | 60 min |


in 20 minutes it would cover 400 miles not 40 mile

If there is a direct relation to speed and the life of the battery 30 miles an hr is 4 times less in speed if it is a linear relationship, which batteries are not linear discharge rate the distance of tavel would be 4 times longer or 1600 miles
« Last Edit: 12/12/2010 00:00:58 by maffsolo »
 

SteveFish

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #148 on: 12/12/2010 02:18:23 »
Maffsolo, check your math. 60 miles per hour is 1 mile per minute. I use this fact to check my speedometer against mile markers. Steve
 

Offline CliffordK

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #149 on: 13/12/2010 03:19:34 »
in 20 minutes it would cover 400 miles not 40 mile

Maffsolo, check your math. 60 miles per hour is 1 mile per minute. I use this fact to check my speedometer against mile markers. Steve

Ohhhh...

And, I was wanting a car that went 400 miles in 20 minutes, or 1,200 MPH.

Let's see...  if the speed of sound is 761 mph (at sea level), that would be a car traveling at just under Mach 2.

Indy Cars run at about 200 MPH.
The current land speed record (jet powered) is 760.343 MPH.

So 1,200 MPH would be FAST!!!!!
 

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #149 on: 13/12/2010 03:19:34 »

 

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