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Offline preacher

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #200 on: 26/01/2011 12:30:54 »
 
CLIFORD THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT RADIOACTIVE IN NATURE BUT HAS A POTENTIAL OF RELEASING ENERGY  ENORMOUS TO CARRY 20 TIMES IT OWN WEIGHT BY USING THE 24 VOLTS 200 AMPS FROM THE BATTERY AS A STARTER. ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT I CAN RELEASE THE RESULTS OF MY WORK NOW FOR SAFETY REASONS AND SECURITY PURPOSES. JUST NEED SOMETIME TO DO THAT, AM USING GRAVITY AND magnetism !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: 26/01/2011 13:05:14 by preacher »
 

Offline preacher

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #201 on: 26/01/2011 12:34:52 »
the problems as regard to charging the batteries and the weight, my electriccar just need two 200 amps battery to start the car, once the car has started it first 20 revolution the arrangement picks it from there. and once the car is on motion the battery will be serving as a bridge while charging.
200 Ah battery? Are you claiming power or peak energy drawn? Also Amps means nothing without Volts.
Charging from where? (please don't say the rotating wheels...)
A little more explanation is needed.
Many electric motors are "Capacitor Start" to give a little extra boost at low revs.

Ah is a little different...  Amp Hours, or how long the battery will last.
Most car batteries can put out on the order of 1000 Amps at 12.6V (or maybe with a voltage drop) for a brief period of time. 

Your issues, of course, are both the acceleration curve, and the maintenance power.  I've ridden bicycles enough to know that I can't coast forever on the flats  :-\


 

Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #202 on: 26/01/2011 12:42:18 »
CLIFORD THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT
a) There's no need to shout.
b) Are you having trouble with posting? (what's the about post for?)
c) You seem to be being very cryptic (if not hard to fathom) - do you want to discuss your 'idea' or skirt round it?
 

Offline preacher

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #203 on: 26/01/2011 13:13:18 »
CLIFORD THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT
a) There's no need to shout.
b) Are you having trouble with posting? (what's the about post for?)
c) You seem to be being very cryptic (if not hard to fathom) - do you want to discuss your 'idea' or skirt round it?

PEPPERCORN THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT RADIOACTIVE IN NATURE BUT HAS A POTENTIAL OF RELEASING ENERGY  ENORMOUS TO CARRY 20 TIMES IT OWN WEIGHT BY USING THE 24 VOLTS 200 AMPS FROM THE BATTERY AS A STARTER. ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT I CAN RELEASE THE RESULTS OF MY WORK NOW FOR SAFETY REASONS AND SECURITY PURPOSES. JUST NEED SOMETIME TO DO THAT, AM USING GRAVITY AND magnetism !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #204 on: 26/01/2011 13:27:16 »
PEPPERCORN THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT RADIOACTIVE IN NATURE BUT HAS A POTENTIAL OF RELEASING ENERGY  ENORMOUS TO CARRY 20 TIMES IT OWN WEIGHT BY USING THE 24 VOLTS 200 AMPS FROM THE BATTERY AS A STARTER. ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT I CAN RELEASE THE RESULTS OF MY WORK NOW FOR SAFETY REASONS AND SECURITY PURPOSES. JUST NEED SOMETIME TO DO THAT, AM USING GRAVITY AND magnetism !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you please stop typing in UPPERCASE !
If you are suggesting 'using gravity and magnetism' to power a vehicle (continuously, not just rolling down a hill!) then we will need to continue this discussion on the New Theories board.
This is because what you are describing lays outside the realm of accepted science - It's not just that the ideas that you allude to are not published yet, they are very much likely to never be published in mainstream scientific journals.
 

Offline Geezer

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #205 on: 27/01/2011 02:26:06 »
Can you please stop typing in UPPERCASE !

Well, after all, his handle is
"PREACHER"
 

Offline Geezer

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Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #207 on: 27/01/2011 12:23:29 »
Now we're cooking with gas! (er, well, diesel actually)

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1698/volkswagen-xl1-concept-promises-260-mpg/

Wow!
260mpg (0.9 per 100km) must be in ideal driving conditions, surely?

Actually I'm surprised it takes as much as 9hp to maintain 62mph. With a CD of 0.18 I thought it would somewhat less.

BTW, being as this is an BEV thread, does this count as a hybrid car (sounds like it has a completely independent electric drivetrain - rear wheels?)
« Last Edit: 27/01/2011 12:25:01 by peppercorn »
 

Offline Appersonjackson

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #208 on: 02/02/2011 00:22:39 »
On the electric car,a split battery system,using wheels as generators to charge up a two system battery, advance short cycle, hydrogen cell. comming soon .
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #209 on: 05/02/2011 17:53:18 »
The US department of energy estimates that EVs cost between twice and three times per mile (or km) as petrol vehicles.

These fanciful mpg figures take only the cost of the elec (and off peak elec at that) into account.  Range is exagerated.  The vehicles tend to be expensive due to expensive batteries which have to be replaced every few years. 
 

Offline Geezer

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #210 on: 05/02/2011 19:40:30 »
The US department of energy estimates that EVs cost between twice and three times per mile (or km) as petrol vehicles.
 

Is that the total lifetime cost per mile? Maybe you can point us at the source reference? Thanks!
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #211 on: 06/02/2011 10:51:23 »
I cant find a source at the moment.  The US Department of Energy's Pacific National Lab has done various studies.  Most websites are pro-EVs and gloss over the full picture. I will keep digging but I think I saw it quoted on a Wiki page.

It is the overall cost of the vehicle, batteries, battery replacement ..everything divided by the miles travelled over the life of the vehicle compared to the same for a petrol vehicle.  It will be based on US fuel prices. 

The figures will depend on how long you keep the car and the miles per you year do.  I looked at the electric version of my own car and I calculated that the cost per mile would be much higher than the petrol version. 

Somebody reckons that the G-Wizz  gets an equivalent of ONLY 6.5 mpg due to the very high cost of the battery which needs to be replaced every few years.  BUT he is a proponent of hydrogen. 

Fans of certain technologies will paint those in the best possible light and the alternatives in the worst.   
 

Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #212 on: 06/02/2011 13:37:37 »
I looked at the electric version of my own car and I calculated that the cost per mile would be much higher than the petrol version.

That sound interesting. Can you provide a copy of your calculations?
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #213 on: 06/02/2011 18:09:25 »
It is a bit tricky as my car is no longer available in electric form.  It is a Citroen Berlingo (petrol) and cost less than £8000.  I doubt you could get an EV for that.  I think the Bee One is £12,000 for a limited range, small, slow car.  Straight away it is costing you £4000 more than a spacious almost van like car with a 400 mile range per tank full.  £4000 buys a lot of petrol even at UK prices.  Given that the battery version would have cost you a lot in new batteries after 3 - 5 years the battery model is a complete waste of time. 
 

Offline teragram

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #214 on: 07/02/2011 17:21:06 »
It is a bit tricky as my car is no longer available in electric form.  It is a Citroen Berlingo (petrol) and cost less than £8000.  I doubt you could get an EV for that.  I think the Bee One is £12,000 for a limited range, small, slow car.  Straight away it is costing you £4000 more than a spacious almost van like car with a 400 mile range per tank full.  £4000 buys a lot of petrol even at UK prices.  Given that the battery version would have cost you a lot in new batteries after 3 - 5 years the battery model is a complete waste of time. 

VCR’s, CD’s, CD players, CD recorders, DVD players/ recorders, home computers, etc., all were out of reach of less well off people when they first appeared.

If I.C. powered cars were only built in the small numbers that E.V.s are being built now, their costs would be far higher.
i.e. the cost of production falls drastically with the numbers produced. Therefore as more E.V.s are made, their cost will reduce.
 
 

Offline Geezer

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #215 on: 07/02/2011 19:22:04 »
It is a bit tricky as my car is no longer available in electric form.  It is a Citroen Berlingo (petrol) and cost less than £8000.  I doubt you could get an EV for that.  I think the Bee One is £12,000 for a limited range, small, slow car.  Straight away it is costing you £4000 more than a spacious almost van like car with a 400 mile range per tank full.  £4000 buys a lot of petrol even at UK prices.  Given that the battery version would have cost you a lot in new batteries after 3 - 5 years the battery model is a complete waste of time. 

VCR’s, CD’s, CD players, CD recorders, DVD players/ recorders, home computers, etc., all were out of reach of less well off people when they first appeared.

If I.C. powered cars were only built in the small numbers that E.V.s are being built now, their costs would be far higher.
i.e. the cost of production falls drastically with the numbers produced. Therefore as more E.V.s are made, their cost will reduce.
 


The reason that EVs are so expensive is because of the cost of the batteries. Unfortunately, those same batteries are already manufactured in high volume for portable electronic equipment, so it's unlikely that we'll see a significant economy of scale associated with manufacturing EVs in high volume.
 

Offline teragram

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #216 on: 09/02/2011 16:41:10 »

"The reason that EVs are so expensive is because of the cost of the batteries. Unfortunately, those same batteries are already manufactured in high volume for portable electronic equipment, so it's unlikely that we'll see a significant economy of scale associated with manufacturing EVs in high volume."



So the battery powered car has already reached the limit of it’s development? Hardly seems fair, when the conventional car developed over a period of 120 years.
 

Offline Geezer

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #217 on: 09/02/2011 19:20:05 »
So the battery powered car has already reached the limit of it’s development? Hardly seems fair, when the conventional car developed over a period of 120 years.


Who said it had to be fair?  :D

My point is that the current battery technology is already fairly mature.

BTW - so is all the other stuff. EVs borrow heavily from existing automobile design and manufacturing as well as electric and electronic systems that have been developed over very long periods too. I realize this may not be what people want to hear, but there really isn't much that's new in EVs at all.

It's really only battery technology that's holding back EVs. A significant step forward in battery technology will make the most difference.
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #218 on: 09/02/2011 21:48:46 »
Batteries seem to have gone up steeply in price in recent years... lead-acid anyway.  I was using small sealed ones at £5 a few years ago.  They are now £13 each.  Cars batts which were £40 a few years ago are now £70+. 

Probably the same old points over again but fans of EVs live in a dream world..... 

I would say at least a 10 fold improvement in battery capacity is needed before EVs stand any chance at all.  I gather sales of EVs have slumped in the UK.   Charging could only realistically be done on an industrial scale IF we build more power stations and it will always be a slow process so that means battery swapping.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2011 21:54:48 by Pumblechook »
 

Offline Geezer

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #219 on: 09/02/2011 22:14:45 »
10x would be fantastic, but even 2x could make a significant difference. Charging infrastructure is a bit of an issue, but that could be addressed gradually as EVs became more popular.

However, unless something dramatic happens on the battery front, much of this is likely to remain academic.
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #220 on: 10/02/2011 17:44:21 »
Even 10x wouldn't be a significant brekthrough.  Petrol is least 60 times (kWh/kg) lighter than the lightest type of battery we have now.
 

Offline Geezer

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #221 on: 10/02/2011 17:54:30 »
Even 10x wouldn't be a significant brekthrough.  Petrol is least 60 times (kWh/kg) lighter than the lightest type of battery we have now.

I think it would. There are other weight savings that factor into the calculations, but it's not simply about weight. Cost has a lot to do with it as well.
 

Offline teragram

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« Reply #222 on: 10/02/2011 18:33:29 »
Current battery technology is fairly mature, but we shouldn’t confuse maturity of technology with economy of scale. Li-ion are made in their millions, but for phones and computers, not for cars. The others elements of the technology (inverters, controllers) have indeed been around for years. In my old job I dealt with three phase controllers for battery powered warehouse vehicles, these were expensive. When they are routinely made in auto industry quantities their prices will drop further.

“Probably the same old points over again but fans of EVs live in a dream world..…”

Might I suggest that BV deniers also live in a dream world, one where oil will never run out, and environmental destruction on an epic scale is not a problem?
 

 

Offline Geezer

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #223 on: 11/02/2011 02:14:14 »
Current battery technology is fairly mature, but we shouldn’t confuse maturity of technology with economy of scale. Li-ion are made in their millions, but for phones and computers, not for cars. The others elements of the technology (inverters, controllers) have indeed been around for years. In my old job I dealt with three phase controllers for battery powered warehouse vehicles, these were expensive. When they are routinely made in auto industry quantities their prices will drop further.


If they were not already in mass production, I would agree with you, but they are, so the economy of scale argument does not work, or at least, it is unlikely to result in a dramatic cost reduction. It's also quite possible that the price will go up if the volume increases significantly. The World supply of lithium is controlled by a handful of countries!

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see EVs displace a lot of IC powered vehicles too. We just need to be realistic about where the technology stands at the moment.

EDIT: According to Wikipedia;
 
"There are widespread hopes of using lithium ion batteries in electric vehicles, but one study concluded that "realistically achievable lithium carbonate production will be sufficient for only a small fraction of future PHEV and EV global market requirements", that "demand from the portable electronics sector will absorb much of the planned production increases in the next decade", and that "mass production of lithium carbonate is not environmentally sound, it will cause irreparable ecological damage to ecosystems that should be protected and that LiIon propulsion is incompatible with the notion of the 'Green Car'".[61]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Production
« Last Edit: 11/02/2011 05:59:02 by Geezer »
 

Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #224 on: 11/02/2011 19:28:15 »
The EV deniers do tend to have engineering/scientific backgrounds.  We know full well that oil might run out one day.  We need to address power generation and how that can be done without oil and gas.  We could have a battery breakthrough tomorrow but unless we can answer the generation question we will have to go back to horses.

It is strange that nuclear was a complete no-no with most greenies but many are now saying it may be the only way to proceed.
 

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #224 on: 11/02/2011 19:28:15 »

 

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