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Author Topic: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?  (Read 101711 times)

Offline BenV

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« Reply #100 on: 20/01/2009 11:29:19 »
So can we take that to mean "No, I haven't looked into or calculated the energy required, and I refuse to do so, because to me it's all obvious, and others should just accept it"?
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #101 on: 20/01/2009 12:04:15 »
Ben you can take it how you want. Varicose veins go flat using IBT no surgery required! http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.150
Check out those two photographs.

Now. Sophie, you and BC could answer a simple question for me. Imagine you all have varicose veins like Alun's and you are facing having synthetic foam injected into your legs to block veins, or having surgery to strip the veins. You wear a support stocking instead of wearing shorts on the beach. You have been told about all the associated risks involved with surgery and infection. You have all been told about the cost in the region of 3 thousand ponds and you have also been told that the surgery will inevitably fail and you will probably have to go through it all again. And I nearly forgot to mention all of the pain and discomfort while you are forced to walk several miles a day after surgery.

Now you have just read about my research as indeed Alun did. Given all of your "expert knowledge" would you opt for the surgery or would you put a couple of bricks under your bed and see if the veins would return to normal in a few months?

So can we take that to mean "No, I haven't looked into or calculated the energy required, and I refuse to do so, because to me it's all obvious, and others should just accept it"?
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #102 on: 20/01/2009 12:07:47 »
... deflated the veins become used to being deflated and recover some resistance to pressure changes and become less incompetent as shown with Alun’s photographs.

Here is an alternative hypothesis…

Alun has vasculitis due a peculiarity of his immune system, and his vasculitis follows a relapsing-remitting course.

Repeated episodes of this inflammation has damaged some of the valves in his veins, (e.g. stuck open), causing varicose veins.

If at times his varicose veins do actually improve this could be explained by the vein valves returning to their correct position and becoming competent during remission when inflammation (valvulitis) subsides.

« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 12:16:47 by RD »
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #103 on: 20/01/2009 12:12:07 »
Ben you can take it how you want. Varicose veins go flat using IBT no surgery required!

Once again, I was not asking about IBT, I was not asking about varicose veins.  Separate the results you see from your hypothesis for a while.  The questions sophie  has asked, and I wish to see answered, are not about the results, they are about the hypothesis you use to explain them.  Do you not realise that, or are you intentionally avoiding it?
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #104 on: 20/01/2009 12:17:55 »
Problem Wife and many others most definately do not have vasculitis any more than Alun does. Yet their veins also went flat and have not bulged since. This reminds me of a street full of birds found dead in the West midlands. The council said for the record they thought it was mass hysteria among the bird population that caused the deaths, not the huge chemical company right next to the street.

... deflated the veins become used to being deflated and recover some resistance to pressure changes and become less incompetent as shown with Alun’s photographs.

Here is an alternative hypothesis…

Alun has vasculitis due a peculiarity of his immune system, and his vasculitis follows a relapsing-remitting course.

Repeated episodes of this inflammation has damaged some of the valves in his veins, (e.g. stuck open), causing varicose veins.

If at times his varicose veins do actually improve this could be explained by the vein valves returning to their correct position and becoming competent during remission when inflammation (valvulitis) subsides.


« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 12:27:26 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #105 on: 20/01/2009 12:28:59 »
A hypothesis becomes a theory. A theory then makes a prediction, in this case varicose veins go flat on IBT. That prediction is now proven!

Ben you can take it how you want. Varicose veins go flat using IBT no surgery required!

Once again, I was not asking about IBT, I was not asking about varicose veins.  Separate the results you see from your hypothesis for a while.  The questions sophie  has asked, and I wish to see answered, are not about the results, they are about the hypothesis you use to explain them.  Do you not realise that, or are you intentionally avoiding it?
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #106 on: 20/01/2009 12:36:04 »
You have not adequately defended your hypothesis, and seem unwilling to do so by not answering sophie's questions.  If it were strong enough, it would really stand up to a simple question like that.
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #107 on: 20/01/2009 12:43:08 »
Wife and many others most definately do not have vasculitis any more than Alun does.


« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 12:47:03 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #108 on: 20/01/2009 12:55:37 »
The photograph you have altered does not relate to Alun's true situation.
I mentioned vasculitis to Alun as you suggested. He added "what a load of old....!"
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #109 on: 20/01/2009 13:20:56 »
The photograph you have altered does not relate to Alun's true situation.
I mentioned vasculitis to Alun as you suggested. He added "what a load of old....!"


If Alun, like yourself, is unfamiliar with the manifestations of vasculitis then he is not in a position to recognise it.

One possible manifestation of vasculitis is bleeding under the nails (finger & toe) called splinter hemorrhages ...



http://vasculitis.med.jhu.edu/typesof/polyangiitis.html

They are small enough to go unnoticed, Alun should keep an eye out for them when he trims his nails.
They are more likely to be present when he has increased numbers of the little red/purple spots on his skin.
« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 13:46:15 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #110 on: 20/01/2009 14:01:09 »
Vasculitis Treatments
Because vasculitis is caused in part by an overly active immune system, the treatment usually involves the use of medications that suppress parts of the immune system. The most common treatments of vasculitis are discussed below.
The vasculitic diseases are serious disorders, and often require potentially dangerous treatments. For our readers’ benefit, we discuss most of the potential side–effects of medications used in the treatment of vasculitis. All of the medicines have a frighteningly long list of possible side–effects, but we emphasize that many of the side–effects can be avoided through careful management by experienced physicians. The risk of some side–effects can be reduced by taking supplementary medications along with those specifically intended to treat vasculitis. Click below for more detailed information on each medication.
http://vasculitis.med.jhu.edu/treatments/treatments.html
From the same site you list.

If alun is as you say suffering from vasculitis, "which both Alun and I doubt is the case" Then the photographs of Alun's recovery must be even more impressive to you. And given the toxicity of the medication used in these cases, surely 2 blocks of wood would be safer and far more cost effective?
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #111 on: 20/01/2009 14:43:19 »
As I have mentioned before, vasculitis can be relapsing-remitting. Spontaneous remissions, without treatment, are not unusual. Alun's improvement is not proof that IBT works.

Vasculitis can be allergen induced (e.g. food, drug), or by infection (e.g. virus, bacteria). In those cases it is a matter of stopping the food or drug which is triggering it, or treating the infection. Heavy-duty chemotherapy is only used when there is organ involvement and vasculitis causing severe disability or is life-threatening, in those cases the risks associated with immunosupression are justified.

If the vasculitis is limited to skin medication may not be necessary ...

Quote
Cutaneous vasculitis

In most cases general measures are all that is required to keep the patient comfortable until the rash spontaneously resolves.

Rest and elevate affected limb, simple analgesics
Protect fragile skin from injury
If an underlying cause is found, removing the trigger usually clears the rash.

Treat infection
Discontinue responsible medication
http://dermnetnz.org/vascular/vasculitis.html

I hope you do not deter Alun from seeking qualified medical advice on this matter by only telling him about the worst-case-scenario. If it is limited to his skin he will probably not require any medication, having it confirmed that it is vasculitis will prevent him from taking unnecessary medications, e.g. anti-fungal treatment for vasculitis mistaken for "ringworm".
« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 14:46:17 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #112 on: 20/01/2009 16:43:05 »
From 19 years of age to 33—Now 34 years of age he has had not a single remission from his varicose veins. A prediction has been made that his veins will go flat and the you have the audacity to suggest it was going to happen anyway and come up with a ridiculous explanation for varicose veins going flat after sleeping on an inclined bed by suggesting the valves somehow manage to start functioning themselves on not one but a fair number of people who have reported the same response with varicose veins and oedema. 
Never the less at least you have tried to discredit the results which is a darn site more than most people reading this information have done.

Hmm perhaps spontaneous recovery from varicose veins is more common that I had thought. Can you refer me to the sites you have visited to discover this hitherto unknown phenomenon?

A quick google using Results for spontaneous recovery from varicose veins = No results found (without quotes), I found this:

Varicose veins of the lower limbs are a slowly progressive,
non-lethal, increasingly disabling venous disease well known
to ancient surgeons; Hippocrates discussed their treatment at
considerable length about 2500 years ago. 1
Varicosities of the lower-limb veins constitute the most
common of all vascular disorders in the legs, and an effective
means of prevention and the perfect cure for this common
malady is not yet forthcoming. Contrary to popular belief,
fatal hemorrhage from varicose veins, though uncommon, IS
by no means rare.2-. We describe a case of spontaneous
hemorrhage following ulceration of varicose veins.

And this: What causes "varicose veins"?
The causes of varicose veins are unclear. However, some factors have been identified that may contribute to the development of varicose and spider veins: family history of varicose veins, female hormones (internally produced or taken by prescription), pregnancy, trauma, age, obesity, and prolonged standing. Extensive exposure to the sun may also cause spider veins on the face. Please visit Prevention for more information on the causes of “varicose veins”.
What can be done to prevent varicose veins?
Since the causes are still undetermined, prevention of varicose veins is debatable. However, maintaining a normal weight, walking, limiting the use of external female hormones, and wearing supportive stockings may help limit the disease's progression.
Damned if I can find a single case of spontaneous recovery from varicose veins other than using a correctly inclined bed of course.
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #113 on: 20/01/2009 17:12:36 »
Valves do stick-open because of inflammation...

Quote
Blueprints Cardiology: A Problem-Oriented Approach - Google Books Resultby Molly Ware, Cathy Jeon - 2005 - Medical - 276 pages

More commonly, as the valvulitis heals, scarring, thickening, and adhesion of valve cusps and chordae occur and lead to valvular stenosis and/or regurgitation...
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s3UBLYEWUxwC&pg=RA1-PA114&lpg=RA1-PA114

(This reference is to heart valves, but would also be true of the valves in veins)

If valves can stick-open it is not inconceivable that they could un-stick and return to normal position after the inflammation has spontaneously remitted.


BTW try Googling "varices" + "spontaneous" + "regression" ... www.google.co.uk
« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 18:01:07 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #114 on: 21/01/2009 10:19:45 »
Anyone good at maths here who can work out the odds of predicting a recovery from quite severe varicose veins in a person who is now 34 and has had them since he was 19 years and a severe painful condition in his knee which has troubled him since he was 4 years that has resolved along with other problems since his bed was tilted? I predict the odds are something like having a go on the European lottery and winning the main prize as the only winner.

RD Thank you for such a brave attempt to discredit my research and for failing miserably to do so.
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #115 on: 21/01/2009 10:41:37 »
Tell Alun he owes me a big drink when his vasculitis diagnosis is confirmed: a bottle of single malt will do nicely.
« Last Edit: 21/01/2009 10:47:39 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #116 on: 23/01/2009 08:53:13 »
Tel him yourself he visits this website frequently.

 He owes me a pint of Newcastle Brown Ale for discovering "THE CURE FOR VARICOSE VEINS" “AND A METHOD OF PREVENTING VARICOSE VEINS” in 1994 and for persisting in the face of adversity, contempt, greed, selfishness, ignorance, hostility, pettiness, and a shameful lack of compassion shown by the medical profession, charities and the science community. How many more years must pass before this beautifully simple free therapy becomes mainstream?

While the medical profession refuses to replicate my findings and confirm them, despite the evidence being blatantly obvious for all to see with regards to varicose veins and oedema, people are being subjected to expensive unnecessary operations. Many of who will develop complications, some will lose limbs, some will require further surgery and some will prematurely lose their lives. I have been in a ward and watched people dying around me when simply tilting the bed by raising it six inches or fifteen cm's higher at the head end would restore normal circulation to their hands and feet within hours. I have seen my own Dying Fathers renal function restored when we were told this could not happen. For God’s sake all we did was tilted his bed. How complicated is setting up a simple study to show this? How much cost is involved in testing this? Did that man opposite my father really need to lose his foot then his leg and eventually his life for the sake of the hospital staff tilting his bed correctly to restore his circulation?

REDISCOVERED
15 years of my life have passed since re-discovering this simple yet powerful tool. Yes re-discovering is correct, because it turns out that the Ancient Egyptians were using a head up tilt of five degrees over 3 thousand years ago! The people in the Tudor period were dying like flies in a harsh winter from a strange sweating sickness. No over the counter drugs available in this time. This illness killed the fittest and saved the young and old. It crossed all classes and respected no one. Yet amid the panic it was realised that if a person developed the illness and lay down asleep he or she would be dead by the morning. So they placed guards at the bedside to prevent a person infected with the virus from laying down and they had a greater chance of surviving it. It has been used for many years to assist respiratory problems, hiatus hernia and acid reflux (GERD)

Alun went to see his consultant yesterday and took along photographs to show how much he has improved. The consultant refused to look at them.  Alun told her about tilting the bed, she said we have been doing this for many years to treat ulcers. “She referred to tilting the bed in the head down position and Legs raised position, not the Inclined Bed Therapy Position. Apparently she was also confused why Alun had been sent to her as the bulge in his groin had gone level with his skin and presented no visual evidence. Anyway, it is not an aneurysm for sure. Oddly enough she did not mention vasculitis either. Not surprising really considering he does not have and never has had vasculitis.
« Last Edit: 23/01/2009 16:33:57 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #117 on: 23/01/2009 10:17:28 »
In addition to kite/romboid red/purple markings, petechiae, and splinter hemorrhages, anyone with vasculitis is likely to have protein in their urine at times, (proteinuria), this would cause their urine to froth like detergent*,

So if Alun has vasculitis these are four signs he could monitor himself without having to pay "greedy" medics a penny, now that I have pointed them out.

Any single malt will do, but Glenlivet if possible.


[* there are other causes of frothy urine]
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 02:03:22 by RD »
 

Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #118 on: 08/02/2009 00:30:05 »
If the markings you have observed are romboid or kite-shaped then the person has small-vessel vasculopathy,
(vasculitis or pseudovasculitis).  Such markings are pathognomic for small-vessel vasculopathy.


If it's pseudovasculitis (e.g. thrombophilia) i'll let you off with a half bottle.
 
Quote
[thrombophilia] may lead to long-term swelling and heaviness in a proportion of cases due to damage to valves in the veins.
http://www.answers.com/topic/thrombophilia

« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 01:57:03 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #119 on: 18/02/2009 08:49:36 »
How about a shandy instead?
 

Offline link7881

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« Reply #120 on: 12/03/2009 07:22:41 »
I had varicose veins on both of my legs. But they seem too severe, but my doctor told me that they have to remove the swelling before it gets worst. I undergone sclerotherapy, this procedure often is used to treat smaller varicose veins and spider veins. It can be done in your doctor's office, while you stand. You may need several treatments to completely close off a vein. I am still under treatment. The injecting procedure is tolerable cuz I'm not scared of injections but once the liquid or the medicinal liquid is in the veins, my gosh!!! That is the pain I can't tolerate! [:0] Now both of my legs are ok but there are still spider veins that I needed my doctor to remove from being visible. I also tried laser therapy and this works better than a sclero.

mod edit - spammy link removed
« Last Edit: 12/03/2009 08:56:00 by BenV »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #121 on: 15/03/2009 10:24:44 »
Clinical trials: deliberations on their essence and value
Franz A. Schelling MD 1
  1 General Practitioner,
Austria

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118806098/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Rationale, aim & objectives In the context of the evidence-based medicine (EBM) movement, the clinical trial has come to be hailed as the ultimate source of medical knowledge, and especially of clinical pharmacology. By subjecting the premises of this procedure to a thorough analysis, the author hopes to achieve a sound rating of its epistemological significance in the context of medical research.

Method Current claims on the basic importance of the evidence provided by standardized clinical trials are confronted with conflicting observations concerning their current application in medical practice. The stereotyped trials of present research in multiple sclerosis serve as an example to illustrate this point.

Results Traditional assumptions concerning the validity of standardized clinical trials are based on an illusion of absolute objectivity and reliability. Apart from being subject to tough publish (conveniently)-or-perish and commercial influences, the results of clinical trials, especially drug trials, are of limited informative value in diverse respects, such as (i) clinical trials do not identify every possible drug reaction for every instance of a disease; (ii) their results never allow the prediction of the efficacy of a specific drug in any given individual; (iii) clinical trials have no inherent potential to provide concrete insights into the nature and cause(s) of a definite morbid condition; and (iv) extensions of clinical drug trials to ever-larger study groups indicate serious problems in basic theoretical respects.

Conclusion A clinical trial cannot indicate a certain prevention or cure for any particular instance of a disease, and the correctness of its individual predictions is always only contingent. This can be explained by the fact that the correspondence between the nature of each of all pathological conditions presented by the different members of a clinical trial population and by the individual patients being treated according to the results of the trial is never complete.

Accepted for publication: 11 September 2003
Did I  ask if there was a double blind trial?
Single blind would do for a start.
« Last Edit: 15/03/2009 10:26:32 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

lyner

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #122 on: 15/03/2009 10:44:46 »
I'm not sure what that post is getting at; you make no personal comment to explain why you posted it.
As far as I can see, it just points out the shortcomings of clinical trials.  But what is the alternative? Do without them? That would be madness.

Clinical trials have a chance of revealing possible harmful effects of a treatment and, where there is a strong causal relationship, they will show that a treatment works. I would go for the clinical trial rather than someone's personal experience any time. Both methods have flaws but the undisciplined method has nothing to recommend it at all. There is too much self interest and possible bias involved.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #123 on: 16/03/2009 09:06:00 »
Yes you are sure what that post is getting at!

Time and time again I hear no controlled study has been conducted, and why would there be when a proposed study showing expensive Varicose Vein surgery are no longer required would impact the secure jobs of vascular surgeons who would have to be involved in such a “controlled study”. Control is the word that counts here, as in this case it is the prevention of any such trial relating to Inclined Bed Therapy that has been successfully controlled by preventing it from taking place.

Those photographs Alun and others have provided show a great deal more about how far off the mark about circulation surgeons and doctors really are.
Why on earth would any controlled study improve the outcome of Alun’s Legs?

Hiding behind the “there has not been a controlled study excuse” has been well and truly exposed for what it is, nothing more than a pathetic attempt to walk past compelling evidence that the people who wrote those precious physiology books have been shown to be completely wrong about varicose veins and oedema!

Franz Schelling did not write this critique about the controlled study method because he felt it was unbiased and accurate. He wrote it because he has seen for himself as we all have how results that promote drugs can be later revealed to be somewhat less than reliable, particularly when so many peoples lives are put at risk by greed and corruption within the massive drug companies who “control” the who does what and where of clinical trials!

The alternative to clinical trials in the case of testing drugs before they reach the market is laughable, because there is no alternative to a clinical trial, it is so tightly sewn up than this argument is a hypothetical one as you well know. And one that is used to great effect in controlling alternative medicines from plants metals and minerals that have been handed down for thousands of years without a controlled study in sight!

Which brings us back to IBT. The first inclined beds I have become aware of were used by the Ancient Egyptians over 4 thousand years ago.

Controlled studies have been conducted on flat beds over prolonged periods and have shown horizontal bedrest to induce degeneration of the bones and joints, muscles, heart muscle, cause thrombosis, pressure sores, paralysis, stroke, skin conditions, high blood pressure,  kidney stones, bladder infections, and so on. NASA et al have spent $billions on such studies designed to reflect the degeneration that astronauts face when living in microgravity during space flight, an argument I have raised many times. But all of these experiments provide the real life controls for IBT. NASA is currently conducted expensive trials and is paying thousands of dollars for people to sleep head down in bed for months. They even provide them with World Of Warcraft computer game and consoles to take their minds off the monotony and discomfort. Why do you think they are conducting this “controlled” study? Could it be that they are seeing how quickly these youngsters deteriorate? Have they informed them what is about to happen to them or in the “controlled study” would that bias the results and awaken these people to the fact that NASA is trying to cause them serious harm?
 


I'm not sure what that post is getting at; you make no personal comment to explain why you posted it.
As far as I can see, it just points out the shortcomings of clinical trials.  But what is the alternative? Do without them? That would be madness.

Clinical trials have a chance of revealing possible harmful effects of a treatment and, where there is a strong causal relationship, they will show that a treatment works. I would go for the clinical trial rather than someone's personal experience any time. Both methods have flaws but the undisciplined method has nothing to recommend it at all. There is too much self interest and possible bias involved.
« Last Edit: 16/03/2009 09:09:49 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

lyner

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« Reply #124 on: 16/03/2009 09:58:04 »
With the best will in the World, you do not have enough statistical data to show a correlation between your cause and effect. Even less, do you have reason to demonstrate a causal relationship. That is what extensive trials are for.

I understand your frustration when you think you have something that works but 'they' won't listen. It is a Catch 22 situation because they won't listen to you (or a thousand loonies with whacky remedies - note, I didn't say "other loonies -lol) unless the information is presented to them in a way they recognise. This is because of the safety device called conservatism. What else can they do but expect people to establish some cred before they listen to them?
 

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