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Author Topic: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?  (Read 71943 times)

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #25 on: 12/01/2009 10:34:09 »
You need to research some more Stefan. Primary circulation is in place long before the development of the primitive heart. No circulation = no heart developing! I have seen video footage of the primary circulation in a developing embryo. No rotation of a chick egg = no chick developing. Why do you think rotation is important to stimulate development in a chick embryo? It may also be worthwhile studying the effects of microgravity during orbit on chick development. Here is the clue! No pump is required for circulation. The oceans appear to get around this problem. So does a central heating system with a flow and return simple hot water sytem. No pump involved here. The water cycle itself appears to circulate without a pump too. How's that for a little common sense?

By using a soft walled closed loop of tube with say 5 mils of salt solution at one point. Elevating the tube so the salt solution flows down one side, we can see the wall of the tube bulging due to the pressure changes caused by the falling solute. = Pulse. In fact injecting pulses of salt solution in the closed latex tube we can see a pulsatile flow. On the other side of the tube in the return flow however we see the tube necking so one side is under positive pressure and the other side is under tension or reduced pressure.

Of course the primary circulation would appear to be defuse. Why wouldn't it? There are no circulatory pathways formed yet in the gelatinous egg. The food source being at the centre of the egg is in the ideal place for gravity influenced migration through the albumem.
Quote
Comparative Phisiology and Biochemistry
Changes in density and viscosity of chicken egg albumen and yolk during incubation
Dr. Hans-Jürgen Meuer, Christoph Egbers
Medizinische Hochschule Hannover, Zentrum Physiologie, D-3000 Hannover 61, Federal Republic of Germany

Abstract
In early stages of avian development, respiratory gas exchange takes place mainly through the blood vessels of the yolk sac membrane. Therefore, a short distance between the yolk sac membrane and the eggshell is required to ensure a sufficient oxygen supply of the embryo. In freshly laid eggs the yolk sphere is located approximately in the center of the egg, but soon after the beginning of incubation it moves to the upper pole right beneath the eggshell. The cause for this displacement is not known. To quantify the forces acting on the yolk sphere of chicken eggs during incubation, we measured the densities of albumen, yolk and subembryonic fluid and the viscosity of the liquid albumen. We found that between day 0 and day 4 of incubation the calculated buoyancy due to density differences between the egg components increases only threefold. This is probably too small to overcome the yield stress of the gel-like thick albumen that forms a capsule around the yolk sphere. A different process responsible for the yolk displacement is proposed. Under reduced gravity, the movements of the yolk are influenced substantially by the fluid properties of the thin albumen, especially yield stress. Furthermore, acceleration peaks present in a space laboratory will probably displace the yolk sphere away from the eggshell. This is strong evidence that an early chick embryo will not be able to survive in a space laboratory in ovo.
Received: 21 October 1989; Accepted: 6 December 1989

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)

10.1002/jez.1402550104  About DOI

 

...hence the statement that gravity drives circulation. In the case of the heart, let us remember that the heart is not formed first in a developing chick embryo. Circulation is in place before the heart forms. This is called primary circulation. A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!

I'm tired of reading that argument. As far as I can determine from my online search, embryonic blood circulation begins with the contractions of the primitive heart. Where is the evidence that gravity, not the developing heart, is responsible for pulsatile blood circulation in early embryos? Gravity probably does affect circulation, but the key word is "circulate", for which a pump is required. You only need common sense and a basic understanding of physics to see that.

Quote
The early embryonic vascular system permits circulation through a series of incompletely fused and developing channels. Before the heart is fully formed, the flow of circulation is diffuse rather than strongly unidirectional as it is in the atrial and venous systems of later fetal development. Movement of blood through the early embryonic vascular system begins as soon as the primitive heart tubes form and fuse. Contractions of the primitive heart begin early in development, as early as the initial fusion of the endothelial channels that fuse to form the heart.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/vascular-system-embryonic-developme-wap/

Quote
The embryonic vertebrate heart begins pumping blood long before the development of discernable chambers and valves. At these early stages, the heart tube has been described as a peristaltic pump.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/312/5774/751


« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 10:35:56 by Andrew K Fletcher »

lyner

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #26 on: 12/01/2009 10:54:01 »
You've been going on about 'gravity driving the circulation' for ages now. Gravity is not a source of energy. Once something has fallen down you need energy from somewhere else to make it go up again. If you use falling salt to cause circulation then you have to get the salt back up again in order to sustain the circulation. This needs energy from somewhere else. In all your experiments YOU lifted the salt up high to provide the energy.

As far as the heart is concerned - surely you know that the blood vessels (arteries) contribute to the circulation by contracting as well as the heart muscles. Primitive systems have little more than a length of muscular pipe to provide circulation.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #27 on: 12/01/2009 11:00:28 »
BC,
Good that you mentioned sitting posture as a contributing factor. Bad sitting posture causes haemorrhoids. These are painful swollen veins. This affects most people who are confined to wheelchairs, particularly those with spinal cord injuries. The loner you sit, the greater restriction is placed on the veins and the more likely they are to inflate. That arterial pressure has to go somewhere. I suspect if you spent far too long watching tv without changing your posture as would be the case if you had paralysis, you would experience swollen veins.

If you were to modify your posture while watching tv so that your knees were at all times lower than your bottom, there would indeed be less chance of developing swollen veins. But more to the point, if you have swollen veins, then simple modifications to your posture are all that is required to rectify the problem, as shown clearly in the photographs provided by Alun.

The relief from oedema and varicose veins provided by tilting the bed head down or indeed elevating your legs is temporary, in that it shifts fluid from the affect part of the body back towards the upper part of the body, it does not draw the fluids from the surrounding tissue back into the venous return as IBT does, but offers a simple mechanical way to cause the fluid to migrate back into the body from the elevated limbs. The problem with this is that when we stand up again the fluid rapidly returns back to the lower extremities. The veins do not recover using a bed tilted this way, hence the 5-6  hundred million pounds a year spent on operations which are destined to fail miserably because operating on veins does not address the cause of the pressure that inflated them in the first place.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #28 on: 12/01/2009 11:04:34 »
WRONG! The conduits are filled with fluids, so no need to lift the salt up because it is already circulating in the body and in the tree for that matter. To cause a gravity flow and return circulation all that is required is for evaporation from the fluids laden with salts and sugars to take place. The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water. So do the leaves of a tree. So we alter the density at the top, this causes it to fall due to the direction of gravity, this causes the more dilute fluids to circulate and tension is applied to the content of the gut or indeed the roots of a tree to pull more water and solutes back in to replace the fluids lost by evaporation and urination in the case of the body.

I lifted the experiments up high to provide a visual display of what is undoubtedly taking place inside the body and inside the tree. Evaporation is the key consideration. To ignore the fact that evaporation will always result in a change in density is insanity! A leaf cannot evaporate solute free water from a fluid that contains solutes without concentrating the solutes. This is totally and utterly impossible!


You've been going on about 'gravity driving the circulation' for ages now. Gravity is not a source of energy. Once something has fallen down you need energy from somewhere else to make it go up again. If you use falling salt to cause circulation then you have to get the salt back up again in order to sustain the circulation. This needs energy from somewhere else. In all your experiments YOU lifted the salt up high to provide the energy.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 11:10:00 by Andrew K Fletcher »

BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #29 on: 12/01/2009 11:37:08 »
Quote
A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!
But a gravity driven circulation system would have no pulse.

Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water. So do the leaves of a tree. So we alter the density at the top, this causes it to fall due to the direction of gravity, this causes the more dilute fluids to circulate and tension is applied to the content of the gut or indeed the roots of a tree to pull more water and solutes back in to replace the fluids lost by evaporation and urination in the case of the body.
But the vascular system in a tree is not a closed loop.  Also, the kidneys and small intestine alter blood density far more than the lungs, so wouldn't this imply that we would have circulation only as far as the kidneys?

And another point - the circulation in an adult with varicose veins is hardly comparable to that of a developing chick foetus - you cannot escape the fact that there is a bloodly great pump in the system.  Have you ever compared the rate of solute flow downwards with gravity against the rate of flow in any direction from the heart?  I haven't, so would be interested to hear how it works out - I suspect the heart vastly overpowers gravity.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 11:45:28 by BenV »

lyner

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #30 on: 12/01/2009 11:59:46 »
Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water.
So if you stood on your head, it would work the other way round?

Why do we bother to have a heart if we could just use your system? How much energy does your evaporation system generate? Have you done the sums? How much energy is needed to drive the blood around the  system? Does your proposed mechanism produce enough? Without some numerical evidence, your proposed idea is just not Science. (I think I've mentioned this to you before)

JnA

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #31 on: 12/01/2009 13:14:22 »
What surprises me most is the simple fact that VV are caused by a breakdown of the very structures inside our veins that fight gravity.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #32 on: 12/01/2009 16:40:25 »
Not at all Ben,
Each breath we take releases a pulse of salts down the main artery.

Renal filtration is altered in relation to gravity. Head down tilt produces urine with near water density. You can test this, I have mentioned it before. IBT provides us with much denser urine output than flat bed rest and head down bedrest.

The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved. So if the heart beats less and circulation increases how do you account for that?

The late Professor Hammel wrote several papers on this subject. A paper on how solutes alter pressures inside vessels. A discussion with him by phone revealed he had already observed pulses of solutes arriving at the kidneys.

Am J Physiol. 1995 May;268
Roles of colloidal molecules in Starling's hypothesis and in returning interstitial fluid to the vasa recta.
Hammel HT.
Department of Physiology and Biophysics, Indiana University, Bloomington 47405, USA.
To begin to understand the role of colloidal molecules, a simple question requires an answer: How do the solutes alter water in an aqueous solution? Hulett's answer deserves attention, namely, the water in the solution at temperature and external pressure applied to solution (T,pe1) is altered in the same way that pure water is altered by reducing the pressure applied to it by the osmotic pressure of the water at a free surface of the solution. It is nonsense to relate the lower chemical potential of water in a solution to a lower fugacity or to a lower activity of the water in the solution, since these terms have no physical meaning. It is also incorrect to attribute the lower chemical potential of the water to a lower concentration of water in the solution. Both claims are derived from the teachings of G. N. Lewis and are erroneous. Textbook accounts of the flux of fluid to and from capillaries in the kidney and other tissues are inadequate, if not in error, as they are based on these bogus claims. An understanding of the process by which colloidal proteins in plasma affect the flux of nearly protein-free fluid across the capillary endothelium must start with insights derived from the teachings of G. Hulett and H. Dixon. The main points are 1) colloidal molecules can exert a pressure against a membrane that reflects them and, thereby, displace a distensible membrane; 2) they can alter the internal tension of the fluid through which they diffuse when there is a concentration gradient of the molecules; and 3) only by these means can they influence the flux of plasma fluid across the capillary endothelium. However, the process is complex, since both the hydrostatic pressure and protein concentrations of fluids inside and outside the capillary vary with both position and time as plasma flows through the capillary.


Quote
A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!
But a gravity driven circulation system would have no pulse.

Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water. So do the leaves of a tree. So we alter the density at the top, this causes it to fall due to the direction of gravity, this causes the more dilute fluids to circulate and tension is applied to the content of the gut or indeed the roots of a tree to pull more water and solutes back in to replace the fluids lost by evaporation and urination in the case of the body.
But the vascular system in a tree is not a closed loop.  Also, the kidneys and small intestine alter blood density far more than the lungs, so wouldn't this imply that we would have circulation only as far as the kidneys?

And another point - the circulation in an adult with varicose veins is hardly comparable to that of a developing chick foetus - you cannot escape the fact that there is a bloodly great pump in the system.  Have you ever compared the rate of solute flow downwards with gravity against the rate of flow in any direction from the heart?  I haven't, so would be interested to hear how it works out - I suspect the heart vastly overpowers gravity.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #33 on: 12/01/2009 16:46:13 »
My science produces results not equations!
I point again with a finger toards Aluns photographs. 6 months of IBT and nice flat former varicose veins speak louder than a billion sums. May I also remind you of the curent banking crisis. Here the maths all made perfect sense to those who lacked common sense.

Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water.
So if you stood on your head, it would work the other way round?

Why do we bother to have a heart if we could just use your system? How much energy does your evaporation system generate? Have you done the sums? How much energy is needed to drive the blood around the  system? Does your proposed mechanism produce enough? Without some numerical evidence, your proposed idea is just not Science. (I think I've mentioned this to you before)

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #34 on: 12/01/2009 16:50:19 »
JnA good point about the valves and structures of the veins. The photographs Alun has provided us with show that damaged valves could not have been the cause of the pressure that produced varicose veins. He should have had surgery, but fortunately decided to give IBT a chance.


What surprises me most is the simple fact that VV are caused by a breakdown of the very structures inside our veins that fight gravity.

lyner

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #35 on: 12/01/2009 17:12:50 »
Akf:
Your 'Science' doesn't produce results. Some of the things you do have been associated with good effects on a few sufferers. What you have achieved may have been contributary towards benefits. That can only be good and very well done.
However, your explations for some of these phenomena are not justified by the results you quote. There is no connection.
If you think that 'equations', somehow, just don't apply to Science where you are concerned then you are clearly wrong.
Stick to recounting your successes but try to avoid indulging yourself with fanciful explanations. If your explanations were accurate then most of proven technology would not work.

lyner

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #36 on: 12/01/2009 17:38:54 »
AKF
Quote
The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved. So if the heart beats less and circulation increases how do you account for that?

You would expect the heart rate to decrease when you are not standing. There is less work for it to do. The blood pressure at the interfaces in the kidneys will also be affected by the attitude of the body. How do either of these facts justify your new model of the body?

Did your friendly Proff tell you that the 'pulses of solutes' he detected at the kidneys were, in any way, related to breathing rate? I hate to ask this but have you actually calculated (???) the change in density of the blood as it goes through the lungs due to evaporation? Surely the actual amount would be highly relevant to whether or not you were right in your theory. Perhaps that would be a bit too like hard fact for your liking.
Needless to say, the effect on circulation to the head would be in the opposite direction as the heart would need to be pumping more dense blood upwards. Did you not think it through?

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #37 on: 12/01/2009 17:44:49 »
Sophie. First of all thank you for the praise. I have taken a screen shot just in case I have been dreaming it.

Give me the benefit of the doubt here.

1.Why on earth would I want to tilt a bed head up by 5 degrees unless I had a sound reason to do so?
2. Why would varicose veins shrink after only 4 weeks of titled bed rest if there is no connection with the inclined bed therapy logic?
3. Why on earth would anyone give up 15 years of their life to investigate the effects of tilting a bed on many medical conditions and then face hostility and ignorance from those who should be concerned about helping people with these conditions?

Contributing towards the effects is hardly going to explain why this is working with those that decide to try it is it?

I fail to see how maths can help to convince a person to tilt their bed by five degrees to the horizontal and watch their varicose veins deflate and eventually return to normal looking veins. Perhaps I may be missing a point here?

Believe it or not. This all began trying to understand how trees lift water and realising evaporation was providing a mechanism for altering the density of dissolved solutes in sap at the leaf.

Tilting the bed in the first place was just to see if anything would change if my wife and I avoided sleeping flat in favour of a gentle head up tilt. We too believed there might be some oedema problems but decided to give it a whirl and see.

After a mere 4 weeks of trying to analyse what if anything was happening to us. And we were convinced of improvements in energy, body temperature, sleep etc etc, A conversation with a nurse called Stephanie Ness about whether it would work for people with varicose veins made us realise that Jude’s VV had stopped aching and no longer bulged after a mere 4 weeks of IBT. This was also mirrored by the Nurse who reported her own VV had gone flat in the same period. Now this could have been a double coincidence, so Mum decided to tilt her bed and noticed her veins also greatly improved. And since then many more people have reported huge improvements in varicose veins. But no amount of me telling it how it is will convince anyone. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating. And some nice photographs go a long way and speak louder than any statistical analysis.

So here we are. A 4 week challenge to anyone who has varicose veins and / or oedema to see if IBT will produce predictable reliable results and cause the conditions to become normal and healthy.

« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 18:05:00 by Andrew K Fletcher »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #38 on: 12/01/2009 18:04:07 »
This is where it becomes truly fascinating. The heart rates were measured in 3 sleeping English bull terriers, 2 lads and a very tolerant wife while sleeping on an inclined bed and on a flat bed. The difference of 10-12 beats per minute was the same in all cases and later my own heart rate was tested and also shared the same reduction.

Respiration also changed by 3-5 breaths per minute reduction in all cases.

But circulation improves on the inclined bed. I.E People with cold hands and cold feet in bed find they are warm and do not stay cold as before. Also body temperature appears to be warmer too. This was tested against literature stats using same mouth temperature and we found that unlike flat bed rest the body temperature does not dip by 2-3 degrees at around 4am as it does with flat bedrest.

Any change in density will suffice to trigger this flow and return circulation. The point is where it takes place rather than by how much it takes place. This is difficult to address as relative environmental humidity, body temperature, air temperature vary so much. High humidity according to this theory would place a huge burden on the circulation, causing lethargy and in extreme cases circulatory collapse in all systems, including the nervous system and lymphatic system.

But this is what drives me on. Surely anyone here who is involved with science and has access to a hospital or university would be compelled to put IBT to the test?

Even if it is tested in the comfort of your own home, perhaps you would come back and tell us what changes you find. Remember my wife and I had no medical problems when we tilted our bed other than a varicose vein on my wife’s leg that ached of course.  So there’s nothing stopping anyone from coming back and adding their own experiences is there?

lyner

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #39 on: 12/01/2009 18:11:24 »
Your post, whilst interesting, does not advance the argument at all.

Comparison between Heart Output Power and 'Falling Salts Output Power':
 
A typical value for the power developed by the heart is around 1W, based on flow rate and pressure difference (neither quantities in much doubt, I suspect). The With about 0.1kg of blood flowing through the lungs per second and, assuming (generously) that the change in density by evaporation is 0.1%, this would mean that every second you would effectively get 10E-4kg of 'falling mass' of blood, falling by say 1m (on average to your lower body) per second. This corresponds to a 'power source' of 10E-3W.
Which power source is most likely to be the significant one?

The fact is, Andrew, that I have not (for a long while) objected to your reported observations. What does not make sense, are you explanations, most of which don't 'add up'.
For millennia, people have been making things happen in Medicine, Chemistry , technology and other fields. They have made things work despite not knowing why they worked. You can be pretty sure that Sir Isaac would have come to terms with relativity, (after a bit of grumbling, no doubt) because the sums fit reality better than his. Why can't you be the same as he would be?

It seems to me that an excellent explanation for your inclined bed success is that it subjects the veins to a small enough pressure to keep them the right shape and give them a chance to heal up in that shape.
Allowing them to collapse whist laying flat would not achieve that and keeping them under high pressure, standing up would just do further damage. It constitutes a mild bit of 'physio' for the vein walls.
There's a nice 'mechanical' explanation which doesn't fly in the face of any fundamental Science. You have to admit, it's a contender.

rosy

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #40 on: 12/01/2009 18:18:29 »
Quote
I fail to see how maths can help to convince a person to tilt their bed by five degrees to the horizontal and watch their varicose veins deflate and eventually return to normal looking veins. Perhaps I may be missing a point here?
Yup. Missing a point would be about right.
The calculations, based on the movements of more and less dense fluids up and down that you believe to be occuring, their changes in kinetic and gravitational potential energy, and how this compares to the required transport of sugars, oxygen, etc to all parts of the body (including the head...), would if you could show that they were consistent with reality, mean that you looked a bit less like a total crank. As I've said before on several occasions, it appears that something in what you're doing might be working in the cases you cite (although of course I don't know enough about any of the conditions you're attempting to treat to comment on the probabilities of random spontaneous remission). If you are indeed correct, you are doing people with these unpleasant and in some cases life threatening conditions a considerable disservice by persisting in espousing what all the trained scientists on this board (who are probably a reasonable test sample for scientists and medics in general) consider to be an utterly implausible theory in direct opposition to know medical data to date. The disbelief (and indeed derision) with which your theories are met may not bother you but it stands between a wider public and the application of your treatment.
An apposite quote might be one I heard recently in another context:
“It is not enough to wear the mantle of Galileo: that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment. You must also be right.” — Robert L. Park

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #41 on: 12/01/2009 18:51:13 »
AKF, you seem to have missed my point, if I had said "eating oranges" instead of " watching TV" the essence of my post would have been the same.
Just because one state of affairs doesn't stop varicose veins does not mean that a different state will.
Incidentally, if gravity drove the circulation you would die if you went swimming. In water the bouyancy essentially removes gravit's effect.
Your circulation would vary wildly as you stood up or lay down. In the real wortld postural hypotension is viewed as an unusual condition- worthy of treatment.
God help you if you were upside down (and I think that, even if we don't do it now, we all did this as children.


The single clearest evidence that the heart provides circulation rather than some strange effect of gravity is

 when your heart stops you die.
End of story.

RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #42 on: 12/01/2009 21:11:36 »
As I mentioned previously, photographs are not a reliable method of evaluating any changes in texture...




Here I have digitally adjusted the contrast, but contrast can be varied by the way the subject is lit,
e.g. type and position of light source, time of day and weather if naturally lit, type of film /camera,
a nearby white wall acting as a reflector (will reduce contrast).
« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 21:23:20 by RD »

BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #43 on: 12/01/2009 21:36:32 »
Andrew, I feel i need to point out again that I'm not saying that you haven't seen results, and I'm not saying anything against the idea of testing IBT.  I'm questioning your interpretation.

You've now confused me about chicks - Do chicks breathe inside an egg?  If not, your arguements don't add up.

Quote
The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved.
What do you mean by improved?  There's nothing out of place unless you mean the rate of blood flow is increased.

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #44 on: 12/01/2009 23:33:42 »
JnA good point about the valves and structures of the veins. The photographs Alun has provided us with show that damaged valves could not have been the cause of the pressure that produced varicose veins. He should have had surgery, but fortunately decided to give IBT a chance.


What surprises me most is the simple fact that VV are caused by a breakdown of the very structures inside our veins that fight gravity.

have to say that the pics don't convince me.
And if VV aren't caused by the valves not working/meeting properly then maybe I need to go back to basic medicine.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #45 on: 13/01/2009 09:59:00 »
2 pictures, showing Male 33 yrs Varicose vein on calf muscle prior to tilting bed to a five degree to the horizontal head up tilt.



3 pictures showing same male 34 yrs normal size vein on calf muscle with some evidence of stretch bruising from previous varicose vein after 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.






Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #46 on: 13/01/2009 10:09:12 »
3 pictures taken in morning during Inclined Bed Therapy and before sitting or standing, showing male 34 yrs inner thigh and Calf varicose veins with reduced pressure inside the vein alowing them to become normal in appearance. The reduced internal pressure afforded by IBT will allow the vein to become normal and resistant to internal pressure during the day. A support / compression leg stocking was used routinely under the advice of his consultant as a temporary measure prior to varicose vein surgery. Fortunately this male is unlikely to need surgery in the future and enjoys wearing shorts instead of a support stocking on the beach with his family.







Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #47 on: 13/01/2009 10:37:05 »
BC swimming does not remove the effects of gravity. Buoyancy is not avoiding gravity any more than freefalling from an aircraft is. Solutes will move freely inside the body and they are in effect swimming in fluids. If this were the case then my experiments would not work either as the dissolved solutes within are in fact swimming in water, yet gravity does not appear to be comprimised.

Postural Orthostatic hypotension is more commonly felt when standing from laying horizontal. When horizontal, the renal function is not performing as well as it should be and salts are stored in the body rather than in the bladder (incidentally this has been proven using a simple hydrometer) IBT on the other hand allows kidney function to remove more salts and produce denser urine in the bladder. On standing after IBT there is little to no evidence of orthostatic hypotension. Research into spinal cord injury and IBT revealed this to be the case in people with complete and incomplete spinal cord injuries. Even in cases where a person would normally black out on trying to use a standing frame, the effects of hypotension were not felt following IBT. However, prolong sitting in a wheelchair did produce hypotension on standing in a frame.

AKF, you seem to have missed my point, if I had said "eating oranges" instead of " watching TV" the essence of my post would have been the same.
Just because one state of affairs doesn't stop varicose veins does not mean that a different state will.
Incidentally, if gravity drove the circulation you would die if you went swimming. In water the bouyancy essentially removes gravit's effect.
Your circulation would vary wildly as you stood up or lay down. In the real wortld postural hypotension is viewed as an unusual condition- worthy of treatment.
God help you if you were upside down (and I think that, even if we don't do it now, we all did this as children.


The single clearest evidence that the heart provides circulation rather than some strange effect of gravity is

 when your heart stops you die.
End of story.


RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #48 on: 13/01/2009 11:26:42 »
Photos do not reliably show texture, but they do show discolouration well ...


Note the romboid and kite-shaped purple/red macular lesions (and petechiae) : hallmarks of small-vessel vasculitis.

Your IBT guinea-pig appears to have vasculitis: this vasculopathic condition could explain varicose veins in a 33yr old.

If his varicose veins have actually improved a spontaneous remission in the vasculitis could cause that improvement.
« Last Edit: 01/03/2009 23:28:14 by RD »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #49 on: 13/01/2009 12:14:20 »
So RD. We ask Alun if he will tilt his bed to see if his veins go flat, at the same time Old Dragon and Old Biker provide us with their own positive experiences using IBT to reduce their varicose veins and oedema, and let's not forget Karen's own observations with blood pressure changes and oedema reduction, and when they provide us with photographs showing the varicose veins and oedema has responded as predicted it would do. Let us not forget that Alun the 34 year male has had varicose veins since he was first diagnosed at 19 yrs. And we get a spontaneous remission, by which I take it you mean if he had continued to sleep flat it would have happened any how? Sorry RD, I nearly broke a rib laughing at that one.

Don't you just love that old get out clause called spontaneous remission. It has been used diligently since 1994 to avoid accepting what is blatantly an obvious improvement in a varicose vein. And yes, it is indeed a spontaneous remission caused by Inclined Bed Therapy!


Photos do not reliably show texture, but they do show discolouration well ...


Note the rhomboid and kite-shaped purple/red macular lesions (and petechiae) : hallmarks of small-vessel vasculitis.

Your IBT guinea-pig appears to have vasculitis: this vasculopathic condition could explain varicose veins in a 33yr old.

If his varicose veins have actually improved a spontaneous remission in the vasculitis could cause that improvement.
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 12:11:47 by Andrew K Fletcher »

 

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