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Author Topic: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?  (Read 101776 times)

Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #50 on: 13/01/2009 12:31:05 »
Whether or not IBT improves varicose veins, Alun has varicose veins and apparently he also has vasculitis, (which could explain why he has has varicose veins from a young age). If Alun is not aware that apparently has vasculitis then perhaps you should mention this possibility to him as it is potentially a serious, but treatable, condition.

Just spotted another red romboid lesion on Alun's calf ...

« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 01:58:31 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #51 on: 13/01/2009 13:17:48 »
Your colour enhancement of the picture of Alun's calf should reflect the same un-enhanced picture you have placed by the side of it. Hardly a comparison. I suspect if you did the same to a photograph of your own leg, we may also see odd marks. It is no surprise that there may be an underlying cause. But I doubt that cause is vasculitis. I have mentioned your concerns to Alun as you suggested.

By the way, a quick google in images for vasculitis reveals vasculitis is a red inflamation of the veins, my father had this problem along with leg ulcers, varicose veins and oedema. Dad was a window cleaner for too many years and the constant pressure from the ladder on his feet did a lot of damage.

Whether or not IBT improves varicose veins, Alun has varicose veins and apparently he also has vasculitis, (which could explain why he has has varicose veins from a young age). If Alun is not aware that apparently has vasculitis then perhaps you should mention this possibility to him as it is potentially a serious, but treatable, condition.

Just spotted another red rhomboid lesion on Alun's calf ...


« Last Edit: 13/01/2009 19:40:20 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #52 on: 13/01/2009 15:17:04 »
2 photographs of Alun's leg taken today using same camera and lighting as previous photographs, showing no obvious signs of vasculitis or indeed varicose veins. This is following 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.




 

Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #53 on: 13/01/2009 15:30:14 »
There's no need to post all of this in two threads, please delete the above post, as it's available here:  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.150;topicseen
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #54 on: 13/01/2009 19:46:16 »
The link above is following Alun's progress. These photographs were taken today and offer evidence for the study.

The same photographs show readers of this thread that Alun's leg does not resemble the enhanced colours of RD's edited version of Alun's picture. It also shows that Alun does not appear to have a problem with vasculitis. He did however recently have ringworm on the same calf area. Perhaps this is what the enhanced pictures are showing?

Sorry if you feel this to be an inappropriate post, if this explanation does not suffice let me know and I will ask Alun to provide us with some more photographs that show clearly his huge improvements in varicose veins.
 

Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #55 on: 13/01/2009 20:03:36 »
The problem is not the photographs, but that there are now two threads devoted to the same thing.  This isn't your fault, (the original topic was 'why not study...', but it's become a different conversation) but there's no point running the two threads.  I think we should either delete the pictures from this thread, or merge the two.  What would you prefer?
 

Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #56 on: 13/01/2009 20:15:12 »
It also shows that Alun does not appear to have a problem with vasculitis.

Says the chap who had to google vasculitis a few hours ago.

Alun still has romboid & kite markings (& petechiae) ...




He did however recently have ringworm on the same calf area.

  Vasculitis can also create ring, ellipse, disc, petal and helical lesions as well as romboid and kite.
    Ringworm would not produce romboid or kite markings: they are the hallmarks of small-vessel vasculopathy.

     Vasculitis can be relapsing-remitting.  The number of petechiae (red spots) indicate disease activity.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 02:00:03 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #57 on: 13/01/2009 20:36:55 »
I did google vasculitis images. Anything wrong with using google? I did so because the picture you were showing of Alun's leg does not look like the typical red marks that my father exhibited along with eczema, leg ulcer etc.

The marks you have now circled are typical of varicose veins shrinking using IBT. My wife and may others have observed this bruising / darkening of the skin. Now I can see clearly what you are referring to and it is obvious Alun does not exhibit any markers for vasculitis. He did have ringworm in the same area but this is the result of stretched skin returning to it’s pre stretched state.

We can argue about your informed inspection and analysis of the picture so why not comment on why you are ignoring the obvious reduction in the varicose vein and my reason for starting the thread to show just how skilful at ignoring sound reproducible results the medical profession is.

Ben,

I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a “proper controlled study” is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

We have a great opportunity to help people who suffer with often horrific skin conditions including vasculitis, eczema, psoriasis, oedema, ulcer, gangrene, and loss of limb and life.

Surely it is worth a little embarrassment and a touch of repetition if it eventually leads on to saving life and limb?
 

Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #58 on: 13/01/2009 21:33:40 »
The marks you have now circled are typical of varicose veins shrinking using IBT.

If the markings you have observed are romboid or kite-shaped then the person has small-vessel vasculopathy, (vasculitis or pseudovasculitis).  Such markings are pathognomic for small-vessel vasculopathy.

Whether or not you have cured people of varicose veins, (I do not believe so), Alun and any other of your volunteers who have romboid or kite-shaped red/purple markings have vasculitis. If they have many little red spots (petechiae) the vasculitis is active, the greater the number of spots the more active the disease flare.

If you are now claiming IBT has cured vasculitis, an illness you are unfamiliar with (hence your recent google search), then why does Alun presently have a dozen red spots (petechiae) on half of his calf ?

Here is a link to the source of the vasculitis leg image I have used above
http://www.dermnetnz.org/vascular/img/vasculitis/index.html
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 02:01:02 by RD »
 

Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #59 on: 14/01/2009 08:49:57 »
Quote
I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a “proper controlled study” is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

Yes, you are paranoid.  Nothing I would have done would have 'hidden' this thread, it would have still been here, but not duplicated the content of the other thread in which you are collecting your photographic evidence.  We try not to allow any other discussion to be duplicated on two treads, so why would this one be special?

Why put proper controlled study in quotation marks?  And who do you think is "skillfully" avoiding testing this?  There's no-one out to get you, or intentionally to block you with malice.


Edit - I've just thought of another angle you could follow.  It looks like people have been using inclined beds for the last 20 years or so to help with acid reflux.  It could be interesting and might give you some indicative data if these people have a different incidence of certain health problems than the population as a whole.  There's the chief issue that they all have an illness in common (acid reflux) but it looks as if there may be 20 years worth of data if you can find the people.
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 08:58:05 by BenV »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #60 on: 14/01/2009 10:21:01 »
I have not said anywhere that IBT has cured vasculitis. Show me where it was stated please?

RD, does this stand for research and development? Are you involved in trials and do you have a professional interest in varicose veins?

Alun like myself and possibly 2 thirds of the population get some spots. I’ve got a few on my back side does this mean I too have vasculitis?

http://www.london-vein-institute.com/treatments/microsclerotherapy.htm bruising and discolouring is more likely to be what you have seen.

The thing is it is irrelevant whether or not you or anyone one believes that IBT can cause varicose veins to go flat without surgery. It is a fact and fully repeatable. The problem is moving you guys forward to help put a study together and confirm it one way or another. This is good science!

Here we have a golden opportunity to improve the health and lives of millions of people. Surely setting up a simple study involving the medical profession is the right and decent way to go with this?

Yet sadly and despite countless empty words and broken promises, charities and organisations including the Multiple Sclerosis Society, The Multiple Sclerosis Resource Centre, The Foundation for Sudden Infant Deaths, The Parkinson’s Disease Society, The Royal National Institute for the Blind, The International Spinal Cord Injury Association, The Royal College Of Medicine, The Lancet, The New Scientist, Nature, Countless Universities, Countless Individuals, The Government, The NHS, NICE, US National Spinal Cord Injury Society, Royal College of Surgeons, The Royal Society, Bupa, Help the Aged, Age Concern, Exeter University, Deriford Hospital, Bristol University, Papworth, Salisbury Spinal Unit, Torbay Hospital, Stoke Mandeville Hospital's.

Hope this goes some way to helping you understand how skilful people are at avoiding such a beautiful simple free discovery that has great potential for helping mankind.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #61 on: 14/01/2009 10:25:11 »
Ben

Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. I have bad memories of a huge amount of information becoming frozen on the Carecure forum relating to spinal cord injuries, blocked not because the information was erroneous but because certain people on there began a flame war on the threads I tried to share the information about my research into gravity and it's effects on circulation.
I apologise for my paranoia and for doubting your intentions.


Quote
I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a “proper controlled study” is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

Yes, you are paranoid.  Nothing I would have done would have 'hidden' this thread, it would have still been here, but not duplicated the content of the other thread in which you are collecting your photographic evidence.  We try not to allow any other discussion to be duplicated on two treads, so why would this one be special?

Why put proper controlled study in quotation marks?  And who do you think is "skillfully" avoiding testing this?  There's no-one out to get you, or intentionally to block you with malice.


Edit - I've just thought of another angle you could follow.  It looks like people have been using inclined beds for the last 20 years or so to help with acid reflux.  It could be interesting and might give you some indicative data if these people have a different incidence of certain health problems than the population as a whole.  There's the chief issue that they all have an illness in common (acid reflux) but it looks as if there may be 20 years worth of data if you can find the people.
 

Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #62 on: 14/01/2009 10:57:29 »
Ben

Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. I have bad memories of a huge amount of information becoming frozen on the Carecure forum relating to spinal cord injuries, blocked not because the information was erroneous but because certain people on there began a flame war on the threads I tried to share the information about my research into gravity and it's effects on circulation.
I apologise for my paranoia and for doubting your intentions.

That's okay Andrew, I understand your frustration.  I have nothing to gain from standing in your way, and merely wanted to keep the forum tidy.  I also have no influence on any of the institutions you listed, and so cannot help you.  I expect very few, if any, members of this forum are in a position to help, so please try not to vent your frustration on them.

Any thoughts on acid reflux - It may be worth you setting up an online survey (with no mention of the symptoms you're specifically looking at, and no mention of your hypotheses, and targeting it at people with acid reflux.  To give it the largest possible impact, you should read up on survey  design, in particular with reference to epidemiology, and reference at the bottom of the survey how it was designed.  This will show adherence to established methods.  You will also need to state in advance the statistical methods you will be using to analyse the data, and which, if any, existing databases you will be comparing to.  Again, I cannot stress how important it would be to not mention specifically what you are looking for, as this would bias the results.

Once you have a well designed survey, and a full definition of your analysis mechanism, put it online and contact as many forums, groups etc as possible, still not mentioning your intentions.  You may also find acid reflux researchers who could circulate the survey to their participants.

This will be a lot of work, and will require a great deal of research and many drafts of both your survey and analysis mechanisms, but if you can do this scientifically, you may find a greater level of acceptance from it.

You are convinced of the benefits of IBT, and the anecdotal evidence you have collected is great, but you need numbers to reinforce it.  You may find that the proportion of reflux sufferers sleeping on an incline that do have varicose veins to be the same as, or even higher than, the population as a whole, and you must be prepared to accept that evidence.  However, you may find significantly lower numbers of varicose vein sufferers, and this will greatly add to your cause.  This is the importance of setting out your statistical methods in advance, as it shows you will not be pushing the data to find the relationship that you already believe to be there.

You must be looking for the data to show that the null hypothesis (h0 - inclined sleepers are equally as likely to have varicose veins) is correct - if the null hypothesis is statistically unacceptable, then you have evidence for the alternative h1, that inclined sleepers have lower incidence of varicose veins.  If you set out to prove h1, rather than disprove h0, it will inevitably introduce a bias.
 

Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #63 on: 14/01/2009 11:16:17 »
I have not said anywhere that IBT has cured vasculitis. Show me where it was stated please?

Your statment below seems to be a claim that your therapy works for vasculitis.

We have a great opportunity to help people who suffer with often horrific skin conditions including vasculitis, eczema, psoriasis, oedema, ulcer, gangrene, and loss of limb and life.
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 11:19:48 by RD »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #64 on: 14/01/2009 11:24:19 »
Does the statement say cure vasculitis?
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #65 on: 14/01/2009 12:09:11 »
Ben

When people with acid reflux are advised to incline their beds, they do so by elevating the upper half of the bed, often to a more acute angle. This makes sense with regards to acid reflux but does not produce the same results as tilting the whole bed to a five degree angle. It is rare to find people who have tilted the bed correctly. Sleeping with just the upper half of the bed tilted is same as sitting, it compresses the spine and buttocks and compromises the circulation rather than assisting it. So finding the small group of people who have tilted their beds correctly is going to prove difficult.
 

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #66 on: 14/01/2009 22:00:52 »
Does the statement say cure vasculitis?
Well, actually, in the same way as dodgy adverts say things, it does appear to be making a claim.
In any case, let's clear it up. Are you claiming it works or not? If you aren't claiming it works then why include it in your list of implied supporting evidence?
 

Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #67 on: 15/01/2009 02:17:12 »
.


                                     I now know Alun's calf like the back of my hand  :)
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #68 on: 15/01/2009 09:33:01 »
Then you do not know Alun's calf at all. The calf is on Alun's leg not on the end of your arm.

When you look at the stars at night, ill bet you can make out familiar shapes by joining the dots?


                                     I now know Alun's calf like the back of my hand  :)
« Last Edit: 15/01/2009 09:48:44 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #69 on: 15/01/2009 09:35:22 »
My claim is and always will be that gravity is not a force we struggle to overcome but a driving force we benefit from, providing we are correctly aligned to it. Circulation problems have been observed to greatly improve using IBT. Varicose veins have been shown on this forum have been shown to improve. So why would vasculitis be any different? Leg ulcer has also been shown to heal using IBT. Scarletina rapidly resolved over one week in a young girl who was in considerable pain with legs swollen and skin very tight. She was told it would take several months to recover, yet did so in one week using Inclined Bed Therapy. Psoriasis also responds well.

But varicose veins and oedema provide us with a sound model for showing people just how effective IBT is.

You can go on arguing the toss, trying to nit pick little holes in my words. But you nor anyone else can deny what has been put before you thanks to Alun!

What about the impressive blood pressure changes Karen reported along with reports of rapidly vanishing long standing oedema problem, only to return when she placed her bed flat?

And then there’s Alison or Old Dragon as known on this forum. She also has reported huge improvements in her oedema using inclined bed therapy.

The sad thing really is here that all it would take is a simple controlled study to wipe the smug condescending smiles of your faces. And this is precisely the reason no medical controlled study has been forthcoming because anyone reading about this research would know the outcome of such a trial before it took place. Like I said skilfully avoided.
 

lyner

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #70 on: 15/01/2009 11:20:00 »
It is largely you, Andrew, who avoid things.
Personally, I have no argument about the effectiveness or otherwise of your treatment. Your analysis of your results leaves something to be desired because of the small samples involved but you can obviously identify some benefits. I can see how you are disappointed with the reaction of 'the establishment' but I can't blame them for the following reasons.
The problem is that, having shown an effect, to your satisfaction, you insist on explaining the phenomenon in your own private terms.
You just do not have the qualifications to pick holes in established Science. You have demonstrated this by your inability to answer detailed objections with anything else than pique and gobledegook expressions.
What do you mean when you say that gravity is the 'driving force' behind what happens? Gravity is pulling everything down toward Earth. To get some 'work' out of it, you need something to fall - which uses up Potential Energy. Until you supply enough energy (a calculable amount), you can't carry on. Your nonsensical arm waving about evaporation supplying the energy doesn't explain anything - and nor does your reference to trees, for which you have no numerical argument either.
If you can't define your terms then you shouldn't use them. Do you still not appreciate the concepts of work and energy and what it implies in your arguments? Can you really dismiss it all and yet expect to be taken seriously?

Can you really insist that the  Maths and Physics, on which the rest of your life depends and which accurate predict the outcomes of so many Scientific Experiments, just don't work for your particular field?
« Last Edit: 15/01/2009 12:17:59 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline BenV

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #71 on: 15/01/2009 11:27:16 »
My claim is and always will be that gravity is not a force we struggle to overcome but a driving force we benefit from, providing we are correctly aligned to it. Circulation problems have been observed to greatly improve using IBT. Varicose veins have been shown on this forum have been shown to improve. So why would vasculitis be any different? Leg ulcer has also been shown to heal using IBT. Scarletina rapidly resolved over one week in a young girl who was in considerable pain with legs swollen and skin very tight. She was told it would take several months to recover, yet did so in one week using Inclined Bed Therapy. Psoriasis also responds well.

But varicose veins and oedema provide us with a sound model for showing people just how effective IBT is.

You can go on arguing the toss, trying to nit pick little holes in my words. But you nor anyone else can deny what has been put before you thanks to Alun!

What about the impressive blood pressure changes Karen reported along with reports of rapidly vanishing long standing oedema problem, only to return when she placed her bed flat?

And then there’s Alison or Old Dragon as known on this forum. She also has reported huge improvements in her oedema using inclined bed therapy.

The sad thing really is here that all it would take is a simple controlled study to wipe the smug condescending smiles of your faces. And this is precisely the reason no medical controlled study has been forthcoming because anyone reading about this research would know the outcome of such a trial before it took place. Like I said skilfully avoided.


I think the issue is that you have said your therapy can "help people with... vasculitis" despite there being no evidence, not even the anecdotal evidence you have harvested for the other conditions.

As I said earlier, do not take your frustrations out on members of this forum.  Accusing people who are not convinced by your anecdotal evidence of being smug and condescending does nothing to help you.  It merely makes you sound arrogant.

You dismissed the Acid reflux idea too quickly.  These people: http://www.inclinebed.com/up-bed.htm sell bed inserts that incline the whole bed, to help acid reflux sufferers.  You should speak to them - they should have data that back up their claims, and so should be able to help you collect data that backs up yours.

Once more, no-one is "skilfully avoiding" researching this - you need better data before people will offer you the time and money it needs for a full study.  Getting annoyed about it on a forum helps no-one.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #72 on: 15/01/2009 12:25:15 »
Ben, any circulation problem should respond well to IBT. Many have and Vasculitis should be no exception to this logic. My Father had horrendous skin conditions, including leg ulcers, varicose veins, oedema, psoriasis, and obvious inflammation of the capillary vessels. The inclined bed helped tremendously to heal his ulcers and greatly improve the varicose veins, oedema and skin conditions. Pancreatic cancer and liver cancer together with infections from the hospital caused his death.

The interesting thing here was we were told he had multiple organ failure, his kidneys had ceased to function, his legs were swollen to twice their normal size, ulcers had re opened and his skin was terrible. After a head on battle with doctors and nurses at Russell’s  Hall Hospital over him being kept on a flat bed, which incidentally put him in a coma, his bed was raised and his kidneys started to function, his urine became clear instead of the brown tar like urine produced just a few hours earlier. He regained consciousness, the oedema on his legs went away faster than it occurred. All witnessed by doctors and nurses, yet when I turned my back they put his bed down again inflicting the same rapid degeneration we say previously. Time and time again I fought at his bedside to keep these insane people from interfering with his bed.

Eventually I had to allow my father to pass because his conditions had deteriorated so badly through the stupidity of nurses and doctors, one of whom had shouted in a room full of patients with cancer “You do realise your father is dying of cancer don’t you” Dad heard every word so did everyone on the same ward.

When I say IBT can help, I really do mean it can help, and base this claim on many previous case histories with a range of illnesses and injuries.

Varicose veins is the least complicated condition that can be shown to respond. This is the reason we need a simple study. The company that manufactures the wedge is known to me. They have piggybacked their product on the existing research from the medical profession and do not require data to back up their claims.
 

Offline RD

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #73 on: 15/01/2009 12:41:43 »
When you look at the stars at night, ill bet you can make out familiar shapes by joining the dots?

This type of repeating pattern is not confabulation.
Cutaneous neurology is in part a mesh of linear nerves*, these define the romboid and kite shapes ...




These lines are visible in those with small-vessel vasculopathy because there is a high concentration of small blood vessels intimate to the nerves (the epineurial blood vessels). In short if you can see pale (ischemic) linear lines forming this type of retiform pattern the person has small-vessel vasculopathy, probably vasculitis. 

[* cutaneous neurology is otherwise looping and helical. Some of the linear nerves are actually a twisted pair: like a DNA double helix]
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 02:01:59 by RD »
 

Offline BenV

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #74 on: 15/01/2009 12:57:57 »
Ben, any circulation problem should respond well to IBT. Many have and Vasculitis should be no exception to this logic.

...

When I say IBT can help, I really do mean it can help, and base this claim on many previous case histories with a range of illnesses and injuries.

Varicose veins is the least complicated condition that can be shown to respond. This is the reason we need a simple study. The company that manufactures the wedge is known to me. They have piggybacked their product on the existing research from the medical profession and do not require data to back up their claims.

I'm sorry to hear about your father, but it adds nothing to this conversation. It's simply not acceptable to say that it will help with a disease when you have no evidence (not even anecdotal), you can speculate that it might, but no further.

There's no data given on their page, or links to existing research, which I think is highly suspicious of any company selling anything that claims medical advantages.  Furthermore, your argument against looking at reflux sufferers is that they only tilt the top half of their bed, yet this company sells a device that tilts the entire bed.  I have given you some very sound advice about how to collect some data that may further your work, and you, not I, have immediately put blocks in the path.  Have you tried what I suggested?  Or are you "skilfully avoiding" looking into it?
 

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #74 on: 15/01/2009 12:57:57 »

 

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