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Author Topic: Very basic cosmology question  (Read 35892 times)

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #75 on: 23/05/2005 21:59:52 »
Oh my good God - it'll take ages for me to read that lot. I'd better get another crate of Stella!
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #76 on: 23/05/2005 22:30:39 »
Well, thanks a bunch. I just started reading the QED section and now my brain's frazzled!
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #77 on: 23/05/2005 23:21:54 »
Ha, and no turning back to the pristine 'before' state via worm-hole, either! Timetravel is strictly Verboten from now on. Gosh, those 911 laws are getting tougher and tougher, with some nasty possible side-effects for our supermassive black friends themselves:

One physicist told BBC News they could see problems with Hsu's and Buniy's conclusions.

"Violations of the null energy condition are known to occur in a number of situations. And their argument would prohibit any violation of it," they commented.

"If that's true, then don't worry about Hawking radiation from a black hole; the entire black hole vacuum becomes unstable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4564477.stm

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #78 on: 24/05/2005 22:11:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by chimera

If it's primordial, then why does the process seem to be speeding up, one could ask oneself.

Found this quite recent link that explains why neither dark-matter or the newer dark-energy theories are quite capable of getting to grasps with the phenomenon:


http://universe-review.ca/F03-supercluster.htm#fluctuations

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)

[typo]



"Most theories attribute the origin of large scale structures to quantum fluctuation, which occurred near the beginning of Big Bang. The fluctuation is subsequently enlarged by the inflation and served as a blue-print for the large scale structures such as the superclusters. Figure 03-08 depicts the supercluster formation from quantum fluctuations. The dot at the top shows the actual size, just at the end of inflation. An enlargement (about 300X) of a small section of the universe at this time is shown in the middle. Eventually, after about 14 billion years, the imprint has accumulated enough matter and form the Coma supercluster today. In gravitational terms, the superclusters are merely slight irregularities on a basically smooth universe. It requires only one part in 100,000 of its rest-mass energy to pull the structure apart."

Exerpted from your link, http://universe-review.ca/F03-supercluster.htm#fluctuations
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #79 on: 25/05/2005 11:25:27 »
A bit one-sided excerpt, but naturally, in our deterministic universe, the seeds of such a structure should in theory be there from inception, can't have emergent properties at every junction, now could we. The issue was not that they're not OLD. How old, is, as you can also find on that page, still far from clear, even with the latest theories.

Still impressed by the effort of the people putting those pages up.

On a related note, gsmollin, do you think there's a similar 'lattice' structure underlying all known physical phenomena, or is it strictly field and particle in your view?

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #80 on: 25/05/2005 16:00:28 »
quote:
Originally posted by chimera

A bit one-sided excerpt, but naturally, in our deterministic universe, the seeds of such a structure should in theory be there from inception, can't have emergent properties at every junction, now could we. The issue was not that they're not OLD. How old, is, as you can also find on that page, still far from clear, even with the latest theories.

Still impressed by the effort of the people putting those pages up.

On a related note, gsmollin, do you think there's a similar 'lattice' structure underlying all known physical phenomena, or is it strictly field and particle in your view?

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)



Well we could always swap quotes back and forth like a couple of debating evangelists... Give me your best shot. I don't understand your last question, so I can't answer. Since I have no info on that, I suppose the answer is "Insufficient data for meaningful answer."
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #81 on: 25/05/2005 19:00:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by gsmollin
Well we could always swap quotes back and forth like a couple of debating evangelists... Give me your best shot. I don't understand your last question, so I can't answer. Since I have no info on that, I suppose the answer is "Insufficient data for meaningful answer."



Nah, we're too old for that crap, I guess.

As to my question:

ok, let me rephrase that, your honour: does the witness think the vacuum in outer space in its empty state already contains all possible attractors and phase spaces as mathematical entities in their own right, or are they only inherent as boundary conditions to the physical properties of real reactions?

Simply put, is empty space already the recipe, or just the an empty drawing board without any real say to what's written on it.

[edit - clarified]
« Last Edit: 25/05/2005 19:02:11 by chimera »
 

Offline gsmollin

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #82 on: 25/05/2005 21:46:44 »
I don't think there is any "recipe". I do think that cause-and-effect have far-reaching consequences. As an illustration, those pictures of galaxy clusters look a lot like foamy bubbles. It could be quantum foam, the tiniest spaces possible, blown up to megaparsec size by cosmic expansion. We could count the bubbles of galaxy clusters and say that's how big the universe was at the beginning, in quantum foam bubbles. We could also be wrong about that, but its just an illustration of my point. The tiny foam became galaxy clusters. Now in those galaxy clusters we have a huge amount of detail. Now, the largest structures were only quantum foam in the beginning, so there was no recipe for the small structures. The quantum foam does not control what you ate for lunch, but it has something to do with the placement of the galaxy that contained the stars that supernovaed eons ago to synthesize the elements in your lunch. You might not be here at all, except for the quantum foam, but if you ate an unhealthy lunch, don't blame it on the quantum foam!
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #83 on: 25/05/2005 22:28:32 »
Does look like foam a bit, doesn't it? Could you estimate its fractal dimension? It's not 3, that's clear.

On a side note, just been reading something really strange. Could you even begin to explain what would be needed to turn a star looking like one of those tesla balls, all hairy sparks?

And finally, this has been bugging me longer: if the universe was really hot once, and this is a nearly frozen blown-up version, is it not gaining in structure more than losing it, like water gains structure by becoming ice?

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #84 on: 26/05/2005 16:40:11 »
quote:
Originally posted by chimera

Does look like foam a bit, doesn't it? Could you estimate its fractal dimension? It's not 3, that's clear.


I don't think so. It's 4D spacetime now, when it was quantum foam, it could have had as many as 11 dimensions. This is where it gets really complicated, and becomes the domain of the specialist.

quote:
On a side note, just been reading something really strange. Could you even begin to explain what would be needed to turn a star looking like one of those tesla balls, all hairy sparks?


I don't understand this question. You will have to supply more information. Is this about high voltage or astronomy?

quote:
[And finally, this has been bugging me longer: if the universe was really hot once, and this is a nearly frozen blown-up version, is it not gaining in structure more than losing it, like water gains structure by becoming ice?


Oh yes! It's becoming more complicated every second. That is the second law of thermodynamics at work.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #85 on: 26/05/2005 20:47:58 »
quote:
Oh yes! It's becoming more complicated every second. That is the second law of thermodynamics at work.



Erm... I'm obviously going to show my ignorance here but I thought the 2nd law stated that the level of entropy could never decrease. If structures in the universe are becoming more coherent, doesn't that mean they are becoming more orderly & that the entropy IS decreasing? [?]
Isn't the implication of the 2nd law that the universe should be more disorganised now than it was at the start?
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #86 on: 26/05/2005 20:57:52 »
Yep, same question here. Stuff ought to get more boring, according to 2nd law. Oh, and this kind of foam does have a pretty simple fractional dimension, not something OTT at all, pretty simple even. I'll look it up.

Here's a picture of what I meant btw, gsmollin, like a star gone plasma, could that be 'done', even as a weird scenario?

http://www.cebunet.com/kirlian/sparks.jpg

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Offline rosy

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #87 on: 26/05/2005 22:01:55 »
quote:
If structures in the universe are becoming more coherent, doesn't that mean they are becoming more orderly & that the entropy IS decreasing?

When water becomes ice that's because although the matter becomes more ordered energy is released and so the distribution of quantised energy becomes more DISordered. The reason why it happens at low temperature is because essentially the energy distribution (enthalpy) becomes more important than the matter distribution (what people sometimes think of as entropy) (I'm not sure if that's a good or even a valid description, but it's sort-of how I think of it) anyhow, look up "Gibbs free energy" if you want a clearer explanation.

I wouldn't know whether there's any sort of parallel on the grand astrophysical scale (I'm a chemist, of sorts).
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #88 on: 27/05/2005 00:21:26 »
A chemist? PAH! heh [:p]
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #89 on: 27/05/2005 00:23:02 »
Rosy - on a serious note... are you saying that the entropy of the energy increases but the entropy of the physical material decreases?

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Offline rosy

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #90 on: 27/05/2005 00:35:37 »
Pretty much, yeah. The ice structure contains more hydrogen bonds than water, bond formation of any sort releases energy, and so there's more free energy drifting round the universe as a whole in consequence. More energy quanta have more different ways of arranging themselves, so overall the disorder increases.
If you're interested, check out this lecture handout (I don't *think* it's a firewalled site)... there are bits missing 'cos it's intended to have gaps to fill (the great fight for students' attention), but I think it should make sense even without those bits (and I guess you could find more info elsewhere on the web)
http://www-teach.ch.cam.ac.uk/teach/IBA/MELT_handout.pdf
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #91 on: 27/05/2005 00:42:49 »
Yeah things on a large scale may be getting more ordered in some ways, but on a microscopic scale things are getting much more disordered so overall things are getting more disordered, just like when ice freezes the ice gets more ordered but the universe less so.

One of the big increases in entropy in the universe now compared to near the big bang is the amount of space the photons have in the universe.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #92 on: 27/05/2005 14:13:55 »
quote:
The ice structure contains more hydrogen bonds than water, bond formation of any sort releases energy, and so there's more free energy drifting round the universe as a whole in consequence. More energy quanta have more different ways of arranging themselves, so overall the disorder increases.



Now hang on... something sounds wrong here. For however long it was after the Big Bang there was no matter, only energy: so how can there be more energy now when some of that initial energy has become particles? No matter how you look at it there must have been more energy at the start.
 

Offline gsmollin

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #93 on: 27/05/2005 18:19:29 »
I'm only going to comment on what I meant in my remark about the large scale structure of the universe.

First, we have to be careful, since the second law is very tricky. Its tricky enough, that I'm not sure about its applications. However, in this case, I think it is clear. The primordial universe was a a highly uniform state. Its temperature fluctuations where millionths of degrees out of millions of degrees, at least at one instant of its development. This is astounding uniformity, and has long been the subject of study, since it was an essential input to the big bang theory. It is no longer so uniform. It has stars and galaxies with densities as high as black holes, and then vast empty spaces. The average temperature is 3 kelvins, but it reaches millions of degrees inside stars. Not uniform. This is all disorder, and its been increasing ever since the beginning. That's what I meant about the formation of galaxy clusters showing the second law at work. What was once a fluctuation of 10e-12 is now a fluctuation of 10e8. I hope that clears this up.
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #94 on: 27/05/2005 19:45:58 »
quote:

Now hang on... something sounds wrong here. For however long it was after the Big Bang there was no matter, only energy: so how can there be more energy now when some of that initial energy has become particles? No matter how you look at it there must have been more energy at the start.



I can't put my finger on it, but it has all the hall-marks of sleight-at-hand, but with the unique twist the trick is taking place too slow for the human eye to notice the switch. No offense to gsmollin, he makes all the correct provisos.

Somehow this does not make sense. Assuming the universe started out with a grand sum of energy available, expansion alone would have made this less, per given volume.

So 'order' is a lack of energy, nice for the 'powers that be' to know that.

Doesn't all this mean the universe will freeze at one point in time? Solid? The Ultimate Ice Age? Without any energy to reconvert matter into energy?
 

Offline gsmollin

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #95 on: 27/05/2005 20:19:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by chimera

Yep, same question here. Stuff ought to get more boring, according to 2nd law. Oh, and this kind of foam does have a pretty simple fractional dimension, not something OTT at all, pretty simple even. I'll look it up.

Here's a picture of what I meant btw, gsmollin, like a star gone plasma, could that be 'done', even as a weird scenario?

http://www.cebunet.com/kirlian/sparks.jpg

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)



You showed me a Kirlian photograph. It's a type of photography using high voltage, and it usually shows haloes around objects. This was all the rage during my college days. I remember the girl who lived downstairs getting all excited about it; she had some Kirlian images of people and it showed these "auras" around their heads. She was all agog about it being their souls or something, and I just poo-pooed the whole thing as a corona discharge. Not smart. I think I could have parlayed that into a trip into her pants if I had only acted interested. Oh well, just another lost opportunity from my youth. I think that mid-life crisis is just the realization of all the times you screwed-up in your youth, and it gets you crying in your beer...

Now look what you started, with your stupid Kirlian photography! You got me monologing about lost girlfriends. Well, I think I'll go get some beer and cry into it.

Meanwhile, you can Google "Kirlian photography" if you're really interested in it. Here's the first hit http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html

Shortly later: Wait a second! That was a pic of the corona streamers from a Tesla coil. What's the question? If you back up one level into that URL, you can see the whole story about the Tesla coil and the Kirlian pics taken with it. So what's the question? Can you do that? Sure! Just make a Tesla coil. It's real 19th century sparks and arcs. Just beware of those neon-sign transformers, they WILL kill you if you get across them!
« Last Edit: 27/05/2005 20:30:53 by gsmollin »
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #96 on: 27/05/2005 20:40:32 »
Mmm. Interesting, but I'm afraid you're missing my point here, somewhat. I could have showed you some other pictures of Tesla balls, like these:

http://www.osiwanlan.de/tesla_research/tesla_2a/globe3.jpg
and
http://www.electronixandmore.com/tesla/teslav1_7.jpg

which are more like it, although the Kirlian looks somewhat similar. I was wondering if a star could be transformed into plasma with filaments shooting out into space like that - would there be any physics that you know of that would cause something like a large amount of gas like a star e.g. going 'plasma', in brief. I mean, if the question is not too odd, else forget it.

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #97 on: 28/05/2005 13:46:08 »
Oh, maybe I understand now. Let's try again.

I think you are referring to the solar wind. All stars have a solar wind. This is happening all the time to our own sun. It ejects a plasma of charged particles. We can see them as auroroas when they hit the upper atmosphere. Also, there is a related phenomenon called the sun's corona, a million-degree atmosphere. You can see that in any good total-solar-eclipse picture.

Then there are the special phenomena. A helium flash is an explosive ejection of the sun's outer layers as it transfers from hydrogen to helium as its nuclear fuel. That won't happen for billions of years, and its a good thing, since we wouldn't survive it.

Other events in the life of stars cause large solar winds. In some stars, solar wind may remove the majority of the mass of the star.

Is that the question, or am I still missing the point?
 

Offline sia

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #98 on: 28/05/2005 14:22:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

I've read those links & i'm just as confused as ever. So, answer me this... if photons travel at the speed of light there must come (or have been) a time when some reach the edge of the universe. What happens then? Do they just go phut? Or do they cause the universe to start expanding at the speed of light with the photons forming the edge?



I chose your question among many similar about the “expanding universe” and photons and so on.

It isn't the universe that is expanding, it is the light's waves that are displaced by elongation.
This is an entropy-effect that forces the electrodynamic waves to accelerate towards equilibrium.

The quanta or photon is a misinterpretation of measurings of hot-body radiation.
Planck analyzed measurements of temperature and wavelengths and found that
there was a small fractional difference between the wave-units.

Planck's mistake was to transform the wave-units to frequency-units.
He did so to find the energy per time-units (second).
His interpretation that he didn't understand (and no one since then) was
that energy is: the wavelengths/sec x fractional difference.

But the reality behind is that a continual elongation of the electrodynamic waves
displaces the radiation at fractional the size of Planck's number (the light's entropy constant).
Planck compare one wave-unit with one (any) other and found that there was a small fractional difference between them. This fractional elongation difference was interpreted as a quantum-unit (or photon-fiction).

The same measuring did Edvin Hubble, and even he misinterpreted the measurings.
He measured the radiation from galaxies and compared their spectral-lines displacement to their approximated distance.
He found that the redshift was proportional to the distance.
As there was no other interpretation than the velocity-related Doppler-displacement, he (reluctantly) calculated the redshift as an expansion-velocity.

But as you can see at my web-site: newbielink:http://www.theuniphysics.info [nonactive]
both Max Planck and Edvin Hubble have measured the same displacement,
but made different interpretations. None of them have understood why.

I offer you here the accurate and complete explanation, and,
I will later give you more interesting and intelligible information.

Ingvar, Sweden

 

Offline chimera

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #99 on: 28/05/2005 14:41:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by gsmollin
Is that the question, or am I still missing the point?



No, I think we're getting there... so basically a star with its disk 'blacked out' would already look like a tesla coil. Is the similarity coincidental, or is that hot plasma you see during an eclipse also an electrical phenomenon in that sense?
 

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Re: Very basic cosmology question
« Reply #99 on: 28/05/2005 14:41:20 »

 

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