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### Author Topic: Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?  (Read 35063 times)

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #25 on: 15/01/2009 20:09:40 »
Quote from: lightarrow
But it's so difficult to make a little computation? For visible light at 600 nm (~ orange colour) the frequency is 5*1014 Hz, that is, the period (= duration of a single cycle) is 2*10-15 seconds. Have you ever heard about a pulse of light so short? Usually atomic transitions last ~ 10-8 seconds...
I had not thought about this before. It is interesting. Are we saying that single photons can not exist? Or is it that single photons must be composed of multiple cycles? If it is multiple cycles, would it always be the same amount of cycles?

#### lyner

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #26 on: 15/01/2009 22:16:08 »
That's a idea which, yet again, brings into the question how you can possible regard what goes from a to b as being any sort of a particle? I claim that the time for a transition in one atom could be different for the transition in another atom (no reason why it should be the same). That would imply the photon, produced by one atom would be a 'particular size / extent' but it might need to be a 'different size' to be absorbed by another atom.(Same quantum energy, of course).
That, again, suggests that the only time you need to invoke the quantum idea is during the actual interaction.
I am still waiting for someone to refute my idea on any grounds other than that's what we were taught.
I have a feeling that anyone who really knows their stuff avoids the noddy particle idea.  We must avoid relying on 'faith' in matters like this.

#### lightarrow

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #27 on: 15/01/2009 22:45:09 »
Have you ever heard about a pulse of light so short?

Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femtosecond_laser  Though these are generated through interference, not through a single atomic transition.
Exactly, I referred to atomic transitions (of course).

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #28 on: 15/01/2009 23:02:19 »
Quote from: sophiecentaur
That's a idea which, yet again, brings into the question how you can possible regard what goes from a to b as being any sort of a particle?
Well, I don't but I suspect there might be an electromagnetic disturbance that goes from a to b that has the potential of becoming mass. Either directly when there is enough of it or indirectly by contributing to the mass of another particle.

This idea of nothing existing in between as a contributes something to b seems a little alien but I can see that it could be consistent with QM type observations.

#### lightarrow

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #29 on: 15/01/2009 23:52:30 »
Quote from: lightarrow
But it's so difficult to make a little computation? For visible light at 600 nm (~ orange colour) the frequency is 5*1014 Hz, that is, the period (= duration of a single cycle) is 2*10-15 seconds. Have you ever heard about a pulse of light so short? Usually atomic transitions last ~ 10-8 seconds...
I had not thought about this before. It is interesting. Are we saying that single photons can not exist? Or is it that single photons must be composed of multiple cycles? If it is multiple cycles, would it always be the same amount of cycles?
Sincerely I don't know how a photon is made, but I don't think it could be thought as been simply made of EM waves. Anyway, IF you identified a photon with a train of EM waves, the number of cycles would depend on the kind of transition and so it wouldn't be fixed. Atomic transitions' (average) lifetimes can vary a lot; think, e.g., to metastable states (those used in lasers) which can be millions of times longer than the "usual" transitions' lifetimes of 10-8 s.
Photons are very complex "beasts".

#### lyner

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #30 on: 16/01/2009 00:06:44 »
If we start off with the proviso that we will never have it all sewn up and that we can't hang on, regardless, to any of the existing models and have the possibility of making progress with understanding.
I couldn't be less surprised that you should say that my idea is 'alien', Vern. You have to be prepared to ditch so many established ideas and to ditch them on a regular basis.
But it isn't so hard if you realise that each model may only be a temporary one.

I don't say that 'nothing exists in between'. The energy is there and the wave model tells what is going on. Classical em theory describes so many phenomena very adequately - including radiation pressure. The quantum theory only needs to be invoked at times of interaction.
Why should we hang on to 'corpuscles' except for the reason that they are eminently acceptable and familiar.
Apart from reasons of 'comfort' I can't think of any reason why photons should all have the same length - particularly if they only need to 'exist' in order to describe the interactions each end.
Lightarrow - photons don't have to be just made up of waves if they are only there whilst there are both waves AND matter involved. To use a term which is often used elsewhere, you could, perhaps, say that photons 'mediate' the interaction between waves and matter rather than between charge systems.
Perhaps the 'Feynman diagram' should be elaborated with a wave phase in between two photons rather than just a photon. I wonder what he would have had to say to that.

#### yor_on

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #31 on: 16/01/2009 11:01:34 »
Or the photons might just be 'froth' on the surface SC:) And the outcomes depending on our handling/expectations of the experiments? As a state 'matter' have very peculiar properties. It allows us for example. And it includes several types of 'living material', both flora and fauna.

The only reason I can see to that we are so comfortable with it, is that we are born into it.
To me it's still very strange. I've seen some ideas where 'matter' foremost might be a concept of geometry.
But then, I guess? We would be 'geometric anomalies', as we so freely and 'consciously' can navigate our 3D world in time.

There are definite differences between matter and what we call light.
You might want to say that a computer, if clearing the Turing test, could be seen as 'intelligent'.
But then again, it's not light, it's matter.

Maybe a quantum computer could be seen as 'in between' though?
But photons are very strange, they are also 'in between'.

« Last Edit: 16/01/2009 11:30:40 by yor_on »

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #32 on: 16/01/2009 12:19:34 »
Quote from: lightarrow
Sincerely I don't know how a photon is made, but I don't think it could be thought as been simply made of EM waves. Anyway, IF you identified a photon with a train of EM waves, the number of cycles would depend on the kind of transition and so it wouldn't be fixed.
Very interesting lightarrow; I think we have identified the most basic reality of the universe; the photon. If we can understand that, we will have that illusive principal that John Wheeler postulated:
Quote
Some principal uniquely right and uniquely simple must, when one knows it, be also so obvious that it is clear that the universe is built, and must be built, in such and such a way and that it could not possibly be otherwise.
I have a hunch about what that principal may be but it depends upon a single cycle of an EM wave to comprise one photon. Otherwise the hunch loses the ability to predict quantum phenomena, relativity phenomena, and all else.

« Last Edit: 16/01/2009 12:23:43 by Vern »

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #33 on: 16/01/2009 12:45:16 »
Quote from: sophe
I couldn't be less surprised that you should say that my idea is 'alien', Vern. You have to be prepared to ditch so many established ideas and to ditch them on a regular basis.
But it isn't so hard if you realise that each model may only be a temporary one.
It is a very interesting idea as I said. I sometimes speculate about a possibility that a sender atom sends out some kind of signal that it has available a packet of energy and that it only sends that packet if it finds a suitable receiver.

I guess that concept could be tested if it could be determined whether a neutron would delay its demise if there was not a receiver for the energy it must release to do so.

#### lyner

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #34 on: 16/01/2009 19:59:07 »
Jeez, yor-on
I have read it several times.
Help me.

#### lyner

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #35 on: 16/01/2009 20:02:49 »
As far as duality is concerned - it is possible that we must really look for something which is 'outside' both sets of Wave and Particle. They are both, themselves, only models, in any case. They are things with which we are familiar - that's all. We've never actually seen a wave (even a wave of visible light is only detectable by its electrochemical effect).
« Last Edit: 16/01/2009 21:11:37 by sophiecentaur »

#### yor_on

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #36 on: 16/01/2009 23:41:59 »
Jeez, yor-on
I have read it several times.
Help me.

Deep huh?
Yep, oh yes, that's me, a deep dude:)
To deep for myself here possibly::))

(He*k, how shall I dig myself out this time?:)

Nah, it was just me thinking about if photons have all those different paths.
Why not take the next step and say that they really are everywhere.

Although they will only 'materialize' as an interaction, and some interactions are more probable than others:)
Also that those interactions not only are related to the 'firsthand' interactions, but as much related to in which way we choose to observe that 'firsthand' interaction.

If it would be so, then what is this 'space' containing all those 'paths'?
Would it f ex. be possible to manipulate space to show a photon where it shouldn't be as seen from what we are used to expect?

But I do find matter strange:)
So I was wondering what could be seen as a 'intelligence' without matter involved.
And maybe a quantum computer could be it?
If one manipulate light.

A ordinary computer is just a piece of matter working electromagnetically.
So it doesn't fulfill my expectations.
As far as I know 'matter' is a must for any type of life we know of?

But you're correct SC, that hole was a little deep:)

Btw: I asked if all matter expands when 'energized' in another thread
(sort of, at least:)
Not all expands it seems.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041119015323.htm

-----------

As for geometry, well I've seen some ideas.
One is string theory as i understands it.
And you have others discussing 'knots' and other topological 'transformations'.
Not that I find them impossible.

Some are very difficult for me to understand though.
Ah well, next life perhaps.

(Joking, I think?:)
« Last Edit: 17/01/2009 00:03:46 by yor_on »

#### Atomic-S

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #37 on: 17/01/2009 05:26:09 »
Quote
As far as duality is concerned - it is possible that we must really look for something which is 'outside' both sets of Wave and Particle. They are both, themselves, only models, in any case. They are things with which we are familiar - that's all. We've never actually seen a wave (even a wave of visible light is only detectable by its electrochemical effect).
I believe this to be correct. The first thing we have to throw out the window is the picture of the electromagnetic field such as was used above in the diagram of an EM wave. According to one text, instead of the E and M vector values at each point in space (and time), upon which virtually all the foregoing discussion is based, we must instead think in terms of a quantum Psi which is a function of E and M, and also of X, Y, Z, and T. This Psi is calculated by the wave-like Shroedinger equation very similar to the way an electromagnetic wave would be calculated from the classical Maxwell's equations, except that now E and M are additional independent variables (actually, six independent variables, because they are vectors), so that the resulting "wave" has sinusoidal and similar forms not only in space and time, but also with respect to each of the 6 new variables, namely field strength. Because energy is proportional to field strength squared, Shroedinger's equation requires that the wave function be "bounded" in each of these six nonspatial "directions", with the interesting consequence that, just as with a classical wave contained in a box, only certain modes are possible. Since these are in the "direction" of field strength, they correspond to different classical wave amplitudes, the result being that only certain amplitudes are possible. This is the way the classical electromagnetic field, when viewed under quantum formulation, becomes quantized, and admits of only discrete energy levels (at any one classical wavelength). How do you "draw" a diagram of such a form of electromagnetism? I do not know, but the important thing is that such a wave function can absorbe and reliece energy only in discrete quantites -- hence PHOTONS. The photons thus are derived from wave considerations, using a completely reformulated understanding of what the electromagnetic equations are like, the key to which lies in the bizarre notion that the field vectors are not independent functions of space and time as in the classical formulation, but are themselves additional independent domain variables of which the field is a function. Such a mathematical object satisfies both of the seemingly contradictory requirements: that the energy travel in the manner of a classical wave, but be absorbed and emitted only in discrete quanta.
(Strictly speaking, this calculation is carried out not with the E and M vectors themselves, but with the closely related scalar and vector potential values -- the time-derivatives of the three vector potential components (per point), and the three space derivatives of the scalar potential.) Itis put in this form to make it compatible with Shroedinger's equation.

#### lightarrow

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #38 on: 17/01/2009 08:12:15 »
Atomic-s, I agree on the fact that photons are not simply EM waves, but it's also quite difficult to describe them with a wavefunction. Since a position operator doesn't exist for photons, you can't write a wavefunction which square modulus represent the probability density to find the particle in space.

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #39 on: 17/01/2009 19:51:28 »
Very interesting Atomic-S; I don't find myself at odds with anything there but don't see how it means we must discard the classic model.
Amplitude in the model is represented by the height and width of the curves. If it is one cycle, amplitude must be constant; this gives us the source of quantum phenomena.

Then if we allow one photon's fields to contribute to the saturation amplitude of another, we have a good candidate for the phenomena of gravity. The contribution of external fields would cause the point of saturation to be offset toward increasing field strength of the external fields.
« Last Edit: 17/01/2009 19:58:32 by Vern »

#### lyner

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #40 on: 18/01/2009 00:02:05 »
A unified theory, even! That's very ambitious, my friend. Good luck with it.
What happens with your diagram when photons are spaced well apart - when the energy flux is low? The region of influence of a photon would have to be far greater than one wavelength, wouldn't it?

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #41 on: 18/01/2009 00:17:40 »
A unified theory, even! That's very ambitious, my friend. Good luck with it.
What happens with your diagram when photons are spaced well apart - when the energy flux is low? The region of influence of a photon would have to be far greater than one wavelength, wouldn't it?
It's not a theory maybe just a hunch put together for my own piece of mind. The influence of a photon would be the fields that surround the saturated points and they have to extend outward forever in space just to satisfy observations.
My Blog has links to all the thinking I've done on this.

#### yor_on

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #42 on: 18/01/2009 00:25:08 »
Vern, in what way do you see photons as creating gravity?
You say "Then if we allow one photon's fields to contribute to the saturation amplitude of another, we have a good candidate for the phenomena of gravity."

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #43 on: 18/01/2009 00:31:03 »
Vern, in what way do you see photons as creating gravity?
You say "Then if we allow one photon's fields to contribute to the saturation amplitude of another, we have a good candidate for the phenomena of gravity."

Hi yor_on; consider the photon model; it is an electromagnetically saturated point surrounded by electromagnetic fields that are changing in amplitude to drive the saturated point forward. As the point moves through the fields of other photons the other fields contribute to the saturation of the point so it reaches saturation at a slight offset toward increasing field strength of the other fields.

#### lyner

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #44 on: 18/01/2009 18:09:53 »
Quote
an electromagnetically saturated point
This new term would need an accurate definition. Do you mean a singularity?

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #45 on: 18/01/2009 18:33:28 »
Quote from: sophiecentaur
This new term would need an accurate definition. Do you mean a singularity?
No; not a singularity. It is the maximum electric and magnetic force that space can support. Dr. Robert Kemp claims to have worked out the physics of it. I suspect saturation exists because amplitude is missing from calculations for Plancks Constant. E = hv.

Edit: It doesen't really have to be the maximum; it might just be a constant of EM fields akin to Plancks. Plancks Constant would derive from this more basic constant.
« Last Edit: 18/01/2009 18:37:29 by Vern »

#### lyner

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #46 on: 18/01/2009 20:06:48 »
Is there any reason why you would 'want' a photon to be something which travels through space? (Apart from the fact that it is a very easy concept involving some very cosy ideas - sorry for the patronising tone)

You see, the only quantisation that I can see is needed is the energy - nothing else.

#### Vern

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #47 on: 18/01/2009 21:33:24 »
Is there any reason why you would 'want' a photon to be something which travels through space? (Apart from the fact that it is a very easy concept involving some very cosy ideas - sorry for the patronising tone)

You see, the only quantisation that I can see is needed is the energy - nothing else.
I had not thought about that before I saw your previous post where you point out that there is really no need to visualize something going from a to b. But I need a visualization like that to suggest that the Fine Structure Constant is the ratio of the bend radius of the path of an electron's comprising photon and the charge of the electron.

#### lightarrow

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #48 on: 19/01/2009 00:37:11 »
Vern, how does your model explain the fact a photon's wavelenght and amplitude would vary from one reference frame to another?

#### A Davis

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##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #49 on: 19/01/2009 01:00:38 »
Hi Vern you surprise me at times you are very close to the answer I don't know if you can get hold of the book by Stratton on Electromagnetic Radiation it was written about 60 years ago, it gives the solution for electromagnetic radiation inside a sphere, the maths gives spherical harmonics look at the phi solution.
« Last Edit: 19/01/2009 01:07:19 by A Davis »

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Does Newton's 3'rd law apply to photons?
« Reply #49 on: 19/01/2009 01:00:38 »