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Author Topic: Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???  (Read 27839 times)

Offline Pumblechook

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Offline Karsten

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #1 on: 14/01/2009 15:45:08 »
Another? There was one already?
 

Offline BenV

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #2 on: 14/01/2009 15:57:43 »
Where do these people think electricity comes from?
 

Offline Pumblechook

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #3 on: 14/01/2009 16:27:45 »
Does remind you of elec car fans.  They think the elec comes out of the air.
 

Offline daveshorts

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #4 on: 14/01/2009 17:34:24 »
The one positive thing about this story is that the large microwave he has built is unshielded so with any luck all the stupid people standing in awe around it will be gently steralised and not breed any more stupid people...

As to what is happening, he has just put a long thin conducting thing essentially in a microwave, and he has got a spark out the top. This is not going to yield anywhere near as much electricity as you put in, so not going to solve any energy shortage.
 

Offline Rospajother

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #5 on: 15/01/2009 00:14:13 »
You are right, the energy is coming form the micro waves breakign down the H20 molecules and the salt is the allowing the reaction, it is only a bizaar version of electrolosis which also created Hydrogen and Oxygen,
Once ignited you have the eternal flame, but only as long as the energy id being dumped into the salt water.
 

Offline Pumblechook

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #6 on: 15/01/2009 00:29:27 »
It is not microwaves.  The RF generator is around 300 Watts at 13.56 MHz.

 

Offline Karsten

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #7 on: 15/01/2009 00:47:36 »
Very practical indeed. As long as my car is connected to an energy source that creates the waves, I can burn saltwater to run a tiny sterling motor that supposedly moves the car. Back and forth a short distance to stay connected to the source of energy required for this process. Not to speak about that it takes more energy to "prepare" the water then you get back from burning it.

Is there not anyone working at those TV stations who reported this nonsense (3 or 4 during this 9 minute video) who has actually a tiny bit of science background and a sliver of ability to ask technical questions and evaluate the answers? This is just so dumb! Are we returning to the dark ages that fast?

In German this is called "Bauernfaengerei". Catching farmers. Farmers meaning "gullible people" which is not what I think applies to all farmers.
 

lyner

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #8 on: 15/01/2009 12:15:18 »
Quote
Is there not anyone working at those TV stations who reported this nonsense (3 or 4 during this 9 minute video) who has actually a tiny bit of science background and a sliver of ability to ask technical questions and evaluate the answers? This is just so dumb! Are we returning to the dark ages that fast?
I hate to ask but which part of the World are these TV stations situated? Where are all the gullible people?
 

Offline BenV

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #9 on: 15/01/2009 12:21:59 »
My favourite bit was when he suggested that you could use this to run a generator, and generate electricity!
 

Offline Karsten

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #10 on: 16/01/2009 00:47:58 »
Quote
Is there not anyone working at those TV stations who reported this nonsense (3 or 4 during this 9 minute video) who has actually a tiny bit of science background and a sliver of ability to ask technical questions and evaluate the answers? This is just so dumb! Are we returning to the dark ages that fast?
I hate to ask but which part of the World are these TV stations situated? Where are all the gullible people?

Without going back to watch those 9 minutes again, I would say they were all in the good old, USA. That does not mean that other nations are immune though. I was informed about the benefits of water as a fuel by a Canadian. Having lived in Germany for 25 years, I would say it is better there but not much. Most people believe what they want to believe and use what results in the smallest changes of one's life-style. The gullible people can be found anywhere where rational thinking are not accepted as the best way of thinking. In the USA you can be irrational without having to fear ridicule. Regrettable, but tolerance of free speech and thought has gone that far. It seems to be more admirable to express your nonsensical opinion than to express that an opinion is nonsensical.
 

lyner

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #11 on: 16/01/2009 10:46:59 »
It's a very endearing quality of the 'Americans" in general that they are more than happy to take the mickey of themselves.
 

Offline Karsten

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #12 on: 17/01/2009 03:07:40 »
It's a very endearing quality of the 'Americans" in general that they are more than happy to take the mickey of themselves.

What does that mean: "to make the mickey of themselves"? Please, for a simple German-American.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #13 on: 17/01/2009 03:48:03 »
To make fun of/laugh at/tease themselves basically.
 

Offline Karsten

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #14 on: 17/01/2009 19:49:21 »
To make fun of/laugh at/tease themselves basically.

Thanks. I am not sure if we do this voluntarily though. Very often I fear this is honest and well-intentioned ignorance. And that might(!) include me sometimes(!).
 

lyner

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #15 on: 18/01/2009 23:15:12 »
They (Americans) are much better at it than the Brits in films and on TV.
The cultural differences are striking in many ways. In the UK we are far tougher in interviews with Politicians and much less 'respectful' than in the US but there are far more 'ghastly' /corrupt / stupid characters in US films than in the relatively 'coy' British films.
Still, the next President is definitely a plus for you lot!
 

Offline Karsten

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #16 on: 19/01/2009 01:12:45 »
Yes, next Tuesday will be the first time ever I will feel remotely proud to be American. Many people feel awfully optimistic here and that is a good thing during times that need (maybe even blind) optimism to go forward and try to turn the boat around.

I do have to say though that I LOVE British comedy. Maybe not all of it, but the dry, dark humor pleases me a lot.
 

Offline Farrah Day

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #17 on: 19/01/2009 14:20:14 »
Seems to me that most of you here are completely missing the point.

Assuming that the whole thing is not a hoax - and for once I'm not inclined to jump to the conclusion that it is - then this is a very interesting phenomena.

For those of you that have immediately resigned yourself to the fact that this 'nothing special', 'no big deal' - he's simply breaking down water into H & O, I ask you simply this: what is the science behind it?

Some of you seem far more interested in how much energy it's taking to do this - whereas you should really be asking yourself, 'How the hell is this happening?'.

Someone was talking about microwaves, but it was stated that he was operating his rf transmitter at 13.6MHz - not Ghz. Besides microwaves would simply boil off the water.

Furthermore, many people who have poo-pooed this in other places say it is just electrolysis.

Well, it certainly is not electrolysis. So what is it?

Also, it would be nice to know exactly what gases are being evolved, hydrogen, oxygen, both?  If it was electrolysis, we would be getting hydrogen and chlorine!  What part is the sodium chloride playing in all this?

For now, forget about the 'water fuel bandwagon' nonsense that uneducated and ignorant news reporters tend to immediately jump on, and instead put your mind to the science involved.

This is actually far more interesting and indeed intriguing than most of you are giving it credit for.
 

Offline BenV

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #18 on: 19/01/2009 14:28:56 »
I think Dave may have worked out what's going on...

Quote
As to what is happening, he has just put a long thin conducting thing essentially in a microwave, and he has got a spark out the top. This is not going to yield anywhere near as much electricity as you put in, so not going to solve any energy shortage.

And I think I'm entitled not to give it much credit, when the implication is that we should use electricity to power a radio wave emitter, which we can then use to enable salt water to 'burn', which we can then use to generate electricity...

Plus, I'm very dubious about the bit where he put his hand in the machine - it may have been the editor/journalist twisting the images to make the story more interesting, but human blood is pretty similar to salty water...
« Last Edit: 19/01/2009 14:32:01 by BenV »
 

Offline Farrah Day

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #19 on: 19/01/2009 15:35:04 »
Yep Bev, looks like Dave has it all worked out there, glad you pointed it out:
Quote
he has just put a long thin conducting thing essentially in a microwave, and he has got a spark out the top

Well there you go, the science so fully explained, and so eloquently put. Golly, I wonder where Dave gets his inspiration from?

Joking aside, if that explanation is good enough for you or anyone else, then I suggest that a science forum is not really for you.

Of course, you're free to give it as little credit as you want to, it's just I thought this was a science forum, and kinda expected a little more, well... science!

If you read my post I did say, forget about the 'water fuel, free energy' nonsense. From a scientific interest point of view, this is not the issue.. or at least should not be the issue.

The SCIENCE is the intriguing part.

Essentially his machine is an induction furnace, primarily designed for heating up nanoparticles that lodge themselves to cancer cells. Hence the cancerous cell, and only the cancerous is destroyed. Of course you can put your hand in the machine without harm- it's not a microwave!

Given that this IS a science forum, is there anyone even remotely interested in the actual science behind this phenomena!?
 

Offline Pumblechook

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #20 on: 19/01/2009 15:51:11 »
Kanzius makes no claim it is miracle (free) energy from water.  He is probably annoyed that it has been portrayed as such by the press which is absolutely typical of them.  

The tube is too small to have circulating currents..  It will be a tiny fraction of the 22 metre wavelength.  The only other known (?) mechanism is dielectric heating.  

Like with so many other 'major' discoveries like this few people seem to follow it up and we hear no more.  I could in fact try it here.  I have a source of around 600 Watts at 13.56 MHz.  He uses 300W I think.
« Last Edit: 19/01/2009 15:54:07 by Pumblechook »
 

Offline BenV

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #21 on: 19/01/2009 16:01:17 »
Okay Farrah, I thought Dave's explanation was okay because it makes sense to me, as a zoologist and not a physicist.

My reaction to this was based on the way it was presented to me, and perfectly acceptable as such.

As a cancer treatment, the major issue would be attracting the gold nanoparticles to cancerous cells, and then finding a way to excrete them again.  Otherwise, you wouldn't need this technology as if you could target only cancer cells, you could target them with drugs.

However, you're quite right, the science of what is happening is very interesting.  What do you think is going on?
 

Offline Farrah Day

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #22 on: 19/01/2009 16:57:58 »
Ok

Mr P wrote:
Quote
Kanzius makes no claim it is miracle (free) energy from water.  He is probably annoyed that it has been portrayed as such by the press which is absolutely typical of them.

Which is a thing that I feel gets overlooked by most, the free energy nonsense simply being the invention of silly reporters out to make it a more appealing story for the layman.

The fact is that we really seem to have something interesting and - as far as I am aware - unknown happening here.

So, what do we have?

A solution of Na+, Cl- and H2O.

We also know that ionisation is and endothermic reaction, hence requiring energy to take place.  Water itself is continually very fractiionally self-ionising due to molecular movement and collisions, but the resulting H+ and OH- ions quickly reform as the more stable water molecule.

In standard electrolysis employing an electrolyte, we draw a two-way current through the solution due to the charged ions. These ions collide with water molecules which causes water to ionise. The more electrolyte, the more charged species, the more collisions, the more water ionises for any given applied voltage.  However, to evolve as hydrogen and oxygen any water molecule ionising into H+ and OH- must immediately give up and take electrons otherwise it will again quickly reform as water.  In standard electrolysis, collisions and hence ionisation at an electrode, will allow these ions to give up or take on an electron. Hence we get an atom of either hydrogen or oxygen which combines with another to be evolved as gas.  The key thing here is that the electrodes provide or take away the necessary charges.

Now, although Kanzius did have an electrolyte (NaCl), he has no electrodes to supply or take away electrons. So, it cannot be electrolysis as we know it.

And what about the chlorine? Ok, information is a bit sketchy, but I would have expected that someone would have noticed if chlorine was being given off - very nasty yellow/green gas with a very strong and distinctive smell, that will eat your lungs if you breath too much of it!

So, we have a saltwater solution being bombarded by electromagnetic radiation.  This must surely be adding energy to the solution to create the reaction, but what reaction can possibly be taking place.

The sodium and chlorine ions, as charged particles, will surely be influenced by the electromagnetic field. If they are induced into movement, could it be that this kinetic energy is enough to cause reactions. If so what?

Unlike in electrolysis, simple ionisation of water does not work in this scenario.

Could it be, and I'm only hypothesising here, that enough energy is being absorbed by the solution to cause the sodium ion to take back its electrom from the hydroxyl ion.  If this happened, the sodium atom would immediately react with a water molecule to give off hydrogen.  But there is little to base this upon.

If we knew for sure what gas/es were being evolved, this would surely be helpful.

Obviously, I do not know what is happening, I only know that it is NOT electrolysis and not a microwave oven.

Actually I was rather hoping that someone on the forum might be able to add a little insight into the phenomenon.
 

Offline rosy

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #23 on: 19/01/2009 18:35:59 »
Quote
In standard electrolysis employing an electrolyte, we draw a two-way current through the solution due to the charged ions. These ions collide with water molecules which causes water to ionise. The more electrolyte, the more charged species, the more collisions, the more water ionises for any given applied voltage.  However, to evolve as hydrogen and oxygen any water molecule ionising into H+ and OH- must immediately give up and take electrons otherwise it will again quickly reform as water.  In standard electrolysis, collisions and hence ionisation at an electrode, will allow these ions to give up or take on an electron. Hence we get an atom of either hydrogen or oxygen which combines with another to be evolved as gas.  The key thing here is that the electrodes provide or take away the necessary charges.
I don't think this is true, actually. My understanding of standard electrolysis is that there is no increase in ionisation, but rather that those ions closest to the electrodes are oxidised/reduced, and diffusion basically does the rest. Your description above sounds more like how a gas discharge lamp works.
You are correct in saying that the H+ and OH- species present in water are transient, but they need not be long-lasting to be available at electrodes in "normal" ([H+]=10^-7) water.

I haven't watched the video as I am using a lab PC before going home - my laptop having broken ;( (and so cannot really comment on what's in it) but presumably the role of the sodium chloride is to make the solution conducting so that currents can be induced in it (just as they would be in a radio arial).

Any device capable of exciting enough current in a nanoparticle to cause it to heat up and thereby destroy tumour cells need not necessarily be entirely without heating effects on strong salt solutions. The thing about cancer therapies is they are not, typically, without side effects (they don't have to have great side effect profiles to compare favourable with most forms of chemotherapy), so I wouldn't necessarily expect the device to have zero effect on tissue not doped with nanoparticles, and I think I would expect at least some heating effect on a concentrated salt solution (I have no idea whether this is infact a concentrated salt solution, if it is a very dilute, say physiological concentration then it's a different matter).
 

Offline Farrah Day

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
« Reply #24 on: 19/01/2009 19:31:48 »
Hi Rosy

My description for electrolysis may not be 100% accurate, but that said, even at the highest levels there seems to be some contention between scientists as to exactly what is happening. Even everyday standard electrolysis is nowhere near as simple and straight-forward as most people tend to think it is - been there and got the t-shirt! ;)  That aside, the point I was trying to make was that Kanzius's discovery is in no way immediately comparable to standard electrolysis.

However, since you bring it up. If there is no increase in the ionisation of water when we add an electrolyte, why then do we even need the electrolyte?  Or are you saying that there is an increase in ionisation, but only at the electrodes?  Which, I might add is precisely where scientists tend to be at odds.

Whichever way you look at it, drawing a heavy ion current through water would surely inccur many collisions, creating enough kinetic energy to ionise some water, not just at the electrodes, but surely also throughout the solution. A bit like driving a bus at 50mph through a busy pedestrian only town centre on market day!

It's not the heating of the salt water that is an issue - I too would expect it to get hot if there are charged species being induced to move. The issue really is on the possible reaction to explain the liberation of hydrogen and oxygen - if that's what the gasses are? 

Apparently the water could be ignited at various salt levels, from very weak to quite strong.

To me, the odd thing is, that if you tried to ignite the gas coming off a small electrolyser, it tends to pop and explode. I've never seen anyone burning the gases coming off an electrolyser and maintaining a steady burn or flame as is the case of Kanzius.

Intriguing.

It might even be that the science behind this, when fully understood, goes a little further to explaining some of the more contentious areas of normal electrolysis.

« Last Edit: 19/01/2009 19:33:53 by Farrah Day »
 

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Yet another free energy from water breakthrough???
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