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Author Topic: How did time flow after the Universe was created?  (Read 13820 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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hi

Re: Nature of Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the event horizon of a black hole time almost stops.

Because an object with more massive than earth, time will flow slower , relative to earth

Ina singularity of almost infinite gravity time will stop

This poses a problem to me, it time stops at the singularity that created our universe, time must stop so how was the universe created if here were no time?

Alan

It is believed by many there was no time and flow of was created a that moment

But how ?
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« Last Edit: 17/01/2009 12:12:43 by chris »


 

Offline Vern

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Re: How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #1 on: 16/01/2009 23:11:08 »
I think any answer to that question has to be just a guess. Nobody can know that. My guess is that there was no Big Bang. The red shift is simply age effects on photons.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #2 on: 16/01/2009 23:52:33 »
I have just had as idea. I remember Alan Guth and his theory expansion and I like it ( not sure how to spell Guth )

Guth propose that something caused the universe to expand stopped and emerged into what is now our universe, the singularity was infinitely massive with a gravity billions of time than a black hole

The emerging expanding universe became this massive with less gravity, so time began flow at first at a snails pace, but as it got bigger, and less massive with less gravity time must have flowed faster and faster If our universe dies a cold death time will speed up to infinity and have no meaning

Who or what pushed the universe out letting entropy and time to flow?

Alan
 

Offline donjx

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Re: How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #3 on: 16/01/2009 23:54:01 »
I was just reading a cosmology book called "Nothingness" where the author mentioned a Hawking conjecture that before some point in the course of the big bang, space and time might have looked "the same" just as EM and the weak force are united at certain energies and, it is supposed, the other forces as well.  At some point there is a so-called spontaneous breaking of symmetry that leads to differentiation of time and space.  I don't necessarily understand that, but there it is.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #4 on: 17/01/2009 03:58:29 »
Vern

 

Quote
I think any answer to that question has to be just a guess. Nobody can know that. My guess is that there was no Big Bang. The red shift is simply age effects on photons.

If the universe infinite and eternal. like you proposed this would solve the difficulty around, time, mass , matter, gravity and everything else

An infinite universe would not have the difficulties relating to time

An infinite universe would/is  will have intrinsic mass and gravity binding all that is and time would be localised, mainly as a measurement of how we move in relation to everything else.





Alan

     
« Last Edit: 18/01/2009 22:39:39 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #5 on: 17/01/2009 09:57:20 »
We are very much used to looking at and thinking of time on our own scale of about a tenth of a second to a century.  Beyond that we cannot really appreciate time.

The interaction times between atoms and nucleons are so vastly smaller so that allows plenty of time for complex things to happen.  Also you have to remember that relatavistic and presumably gravitational field time dilation does not slow down the interactions between atoms it only allow unstable atoms more time to interact. 

This was how relatavistic time dilation was proved in the first instance.  Cosmic rays generate mu mesons in the upper atmosphere and these have a half life of about a microsecond and should decay after they have moved about a mile at around the velocity of light but because they ARE travelling at close to the velocity of light they last longer.  Long enough to be observed at the earth's surface.
 

Offline yor_on

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #6 on: 18/01/2009 14:59:34 »
It poses a problem if we define space (3D + time) as the only media for anything to exist in.
But if you have something existing as a (dimensionless) 'point' containing all energy we know of.
And that 'point' breaks down into a quark gluon soup that starts to 'congregate/inflate'.
If that 'inflation' keeps going, without time having an definite arrow, then we will have what we call space and distance.

Another thing one could do is to wonder if/how matter 'coming too' form influences space and distances.
If every speck of matter have its own 'sphere' of space as well as 'time'.
That could also be a part of an 'inflation'.

And if matter is space and also defines our arrow of time, as i believe, then that arrow will come first after 'matter' is formed.

But that beginning is an enigma:)
« Last Edit: 18/01/2009 17:57:44 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #7 on: 18/01/2009 15:39:24 »
Vern
Quote
I think any answer to that question has to be just a guess. Nobody can know that. My guess is that there was no Big Bang. The red shift is simply age effects on photons.
If the universe infinite and eternal. like you proposed this would solve the difficulty around, time, mass , matter, gravity and everything else

An infinite universe would not have the difficulties relating to time

An infinite universe wood/is  will have intrinsic mass and gravity binding all that is and time would be localised, mainly as a measurement of how we move in relation to everything else.

Alan  
Yes; that's probably why I like the idea of an infinite universe. It is less painful to think about :)
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #8 on: 18/01/2009 23:25:09 »

 
The Planck length is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid, and quantum effects dominate. This is the ‘quantum of length’, the smallest measurement of length with any meaning.

And roughly equal to 1.6 x 10-35 m or about 10-20 times the size of a proton.

The Planck time is the time it would take a photon traveling at the speed of light to across a distance equal to the Planck length. This is the ‘quantum of time’, the smallest measurement of time that has any meaning, and is equal to 10-43 seconds. No smaller division of time has any meaning. With in the framework of the laws of physics as we understand them today, we can say only that the universe came into existence when it already had an age of 10-43 seconds.

JILA scientists detect strontium's "ticks" (430 trillion per second) by bathing the atoms in very stable red laser light at the exact frequency that prompts jumps between two electronic energy levels. The JILA team recently improved the clock by achieving much better control of the atoms. For example, they can now cancel out the atoms' internal sensitivity to external magnetic fields, which otherwise degrade clock accuracy. They also characterized more precisely the effects of confining atoms in the lattice.

One American trillion (i.e. 1012) would equal about 31,688 years 269 days 17 hours 34 minutes 25 seconds. (Leap years counted)

So approx =  32 000 times 32 = 160 000 years or one hundred and sixty thousand years

Or  most accurate time measuring device using America trillion is
 Correct to one second in 160 thousand years


 British trillion (i.e. 1018) would equal about 31,688,738,506 years 296 days 8 hours 48 minutes 33 seconds. (Leap years counted)

Approx =  32 000 000 000 years times 23 = 160 million years

Or  the most accurate time measuring devise using the British trillion is correct to one second in 32 billion years

I don’t think we ever reach a moment



 

Offline LeeE

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #9 on: 19/01/2009 17:01:13 »
hi

Re: Nature of Time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the event horizon of a black hole time almost stops.

There's no need to be so vague or imprecise;  at the Event Horizon, which is actually the Schwarzschild Radius of a Black Hole, the rate of time reduces to zero.  It doesn't just nearly stop.

Quote
Because an object with more massive than earth, time will flow slower , relative to earth

Ina singularity of almost infinite gravity time will stop

Using almost infinite here doesn't really help yourself.  The actual value isn't unknown or vague, or even nearly infinite.  While gravity can be conjectured to be infinite at the singularity itself, this is way inside the Schwarzschild radius, at which the rate of time becomes zero.  The gravity at the Schwarzschild radius is far from infinite and just depends upon the mass of the black hole, and as someone pointed out in another recent thread, the value for gravitational acceleration at the EH actually gets smaller as the BH gets larger.

Quote
This poses a problem to me, it time stops at the singularity that created our universe, time must stop so how was the universe created if here were no time?

Alan

It is believed by many there was no time and flow of was created a that moment

But how ?
__________________

I think it is thinking of time as a flow that is causing you problems.  Time appears to be the same, in absolute terms, as space, and just as space doesn't flow past us when we move through it, neither does time.  Rather, we move through space and time.  This difference isn't purely academic, or just dependent upon your point of view; any object having a non-zero rest mass will experience acceleration if it changes it's motion, whereas if it was stationary and space (and time) was just moving past it, it would feel no acceleration as it's motion changed.

Thus, time didn't stop at the initiation of the Big Bang - it was created, and our movement through it was started, with the initiation of the BB.
 

Offline itisus

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #10 on: 20/01/2009 01:18:08 »
The universe was not created.  The question is therefore nonsensical.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #11 on: 20/01/2009 04:34:15 »
LeeE

Quote
Thus, time didn't stop at the initiation of the Big Bang - it was created, and our movement through it was started, with the initiation of the BB.

I agree

Quote
I think it is thinking of time as a flow that is causing you problems.  Time appears to be the same, in absolute terms, as space, and just as space doesn't flow past us when we move through it, neither does time.  Rather, we move through space and time.  This difference isn't purely academic, or just dependent upon your point of view; any object having a non-zero rest mass will experience acceleration if it changes it's motion, whereas if it was stationary and space (and time) was just moving past it, it would feel no acceleration as it's motion changed

If time does not flow then it must move in ever tiny jerks  or stop starts ,through the fabric of space


Quote
There's no need to be so vague or imprecise;  at the Event Horizon, which is actually the Schwarzschild Radius of a Black Hole, the rate of time reduces to zero.  It doesn't just nearly stop.

You are right of course, infinity is a naughty word in science  ;D

-tisus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
The universe was not created.  The question is therefore nonsensical.


Oh! Man you and the great alien know this and you will not explain youselves  ::)  >:(
« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 04:36:04 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline justaskin

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #12 on: 20/01/2009 05:31:38 »
The universe was not created. 
Oh yes then prey tell us in one paragraph or less what did happen.

Cheers
justaskin
 

Offline justaskin

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #13 on: 20/01/2009 05:55:57 »
 

 
Quote
There's no need to be so vague or imprecise;  at the Event Horizon, which is actually the Schwarzschild Radius of a Black Hole, the rate of time reduces to zero.  It doesn't just nearly stop. 
LeeE I just don't get this.I saw it explained the other day that if you were watching a spaceship enter a black hole it would appear to an observer to stop
at the EH.So how long would the spaceship appear to be stopped.For all time?.If the observer looked away and looked back would the spaceship still appear to be at the EH.As the spaceship has now passed the EH and is apparently  gone from all time how could you still see something.
What is it I am not getting here?.

Cheers
justaskin
 
 
 
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #14 on: 20/01/2009 05:56:22 »
What that meant to be a play on words, you saying 'prey'?
 

Offline justaskin

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #15 on: 20/01/2009 06:15:41 »
No but good wasn't it. ;D
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #16 on: 20/01/2009 06:20:31 »
 ::) ::)  ::)  ;D ;D
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #17 on: 20/01/2009 09:33:35 »

justaskin


Quote
LeeE I just don't get this.I saw it explained the other day that if you were watching a spaceship enter a black hole it would appear to an observer to stop
at the EH.So how long would the spaceship appear to be stopped.For all time?.If the observer looked away and looked back would the spaceship still appear to be at the EH.As the spaceship has now passed the EH and is apparently  gone from all time how could you still see something.
What is it I am not getting here?.


It would appear to stop and hang there forever. But in the infinity of time it must dissipate its energy due to relentless entropy. Even a black hole is not eternal in the unimaginable distant future it will decay and vanish from what is left of the universe

I cant wait for it to happen  [8D] ;)

 

Offline yor_on

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #18 on: 20/01/2009 14:04:11 »
 
Quote
There's no need to be so vague or imprecise;  at the Event Horizon, which is actually the Schwarzschild Radius of a Black Hole, the rate of time reduces to zero.  It doesn't just nearly stop. 
LeeE I just don't get this.I saw it explained the other day that if you were watching a spaceship enter a black hole it would appear to an observer to stop
at the EH.So how long would the spaceship appear to be stopped.For all time?.If the observer looked away and looked back would the spaceship still appear to be at the EH.As the spaceship has now passed the EH and is apparently  gone from all time how could you still see something.
What is it I am not getting here?.

Cheers
justaskin


It's about gravity and time.
The more gravity that surrounds you and your frame, the faster all other frames with less gravity will be to you.
And when people living on one of those other frames look at you, you will seem to age slower, move slower, etc etc, than them.

http://www.mariner.connectfree.co.uk/Gravity/Extreme_gravity/extreme_gravity.html
 
 

Offline LeeE

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #19 on: 20/01/2009 21:58:12 »
Quote
I think it is thinking of time as a flow that is causing you problems.  Time appears to be the same, in absolute terms, as space, and just as space doesn't flow past us when we move through it, neither does time.  Rather, we move through space and time.  This difference isn't purely academic, or just dependent upon your point of view; any object having a non-zero rest mass will experience acceleration if it changes it's motion, whereas if it was stationary and space (and time) was just moving past it, it would feel no acceleration as it's motion changed

If time does not flow then it must move in ever tiny jerks  or stop starts ,through the fabric of space


You're getting the bit that moves wrong; it's you that is moving, not time.

Whether your movement through it is smoothly continuous or in a series of discrete jumps is a different issue.
 

Offline LeeE

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #20 on: 20/01/2009 22:24:16 »
Quote
There's no need to be so vague or imprecise;  at the Event Horizon, which is actually the Schwarzschild Radius of a Black Hole, the rate of time reduces to zero.  It doesn't just nearly stop. 
LeeE I just don't get this.I saw it explained the other day that if you were watching a spaceship enter a black hole it would appear to an observer to stop
at the EH.So how long would the spaceship appear to be stopped.For all time?.If the observer looked away and looked back would the spaceship still appear to be at the EH.As the spaceship has now passed the EH and is apparently  gone from all time how could you still see something.
What is it I am not getting here?.

Cheers
justaskin

You, as a distant observer, wouldn't see it still hanging there.

As you watched it, the light from it, by which you see it, would become dimmer and dimmer, and eventually it's energy content would drop to zero.

Let's say that the spaceship is shining a light towards you at a frequency of about 750 THz (violet light).  As the rate of time decreases for the spaceship it will appear to take longer for each cycle of the light to be emitted;  when the rate of time for the spaceship has dropped to a factor of 0.5 it will appear to take two seconds for the spaceship to emit the same 750 terracycles of light, effectively reducing it's frequency to 375 THz, and thus below the visible spectrum.  As the rate of time for the spaceship gets lower and lower, the frequency of the light continues dropping until you reach the point where both the rate of time and the frequency of the light reduces to zero, meaning that there's zero energy in it.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #21 on: 21/01/2009 09:41:35 »
LeeE

Quote
You're getting the bit that moves wrong; it's you that is moving, not time.

Whether your movement through it is smoothly continuous or in a series of discrete jumps is a different issue.

That's what I believe, time is just a human construct to measure movement
 

Offline yor_on

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #22 on: 23/01/2009 16:09:12 »
So, do you 'move' when in a coma?
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #23 on: 23/01/2009 19:19:45 »
Of course you move, breath in and out in and out heart pumps and pumps
 

Offline LeeE

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #24 on: 23/01/2009 23:20:29 »
So, do you 'move' when in a coma?

Of course you do.  You're moving through space, as the Earth spins on it's axis, and as the Earth orbits the Sun, and as the Solar System rotates around the center of the Galaxy, and as the Galaxy moves towards Andromeda, and the local group moves within the Virgo super-cluster.  And then you're also moving through time.
 

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How did time flow after the Universe was created?
« Reply #24 on: 23/01/2009 23:20:29 »

 

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