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Author Topic: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?  (Read 18134 times)

Offline dentstudent

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #25 on: 21/01/2009 15:51:13 »
BTW, though I know you know this, scientists who study "weather" are meteorologists.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #26 on: 21/01/2009 15:53:12 »
Don't get me wrong. I am all for reducing the emission of greenhouse gases. What I am against is the scam. The Cap and Trade deal in the Kyoto agreement; in fact the whole of the Kyoto agreement is that scam. The agreement would not reduce greenhouse gases. It would just move the producers of it from one place to another.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #27 on: 21/01/2009 15:54:40 »
Quote
BTW, though I know you know this, scientists who study "weather" are meteorologists.
Oops; typing too quick; thanks; excuse me while I EDIT.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #28 on: 21/01/2009 15:57:31 »
Yes, well I can see how an astronomer who studies the evolution and space-time relations of the universe would have a better understanding than all those climatologists out there.
I think you will find that most climatologists say we are in a normal cycle.
 

Offline dentstudent

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #29 on: 21/01/2009 15:59:22 »
Yes, well I can see how an astronomer who studies the evolution and space-time relations of the universe would have a better understanding than all those climatologists out there.
I think you will find that most climatologists say we are in a normal cycle.

None of the climatologists that I know do.....
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #30 on: 21/01/2009 16:01:20 »
Heres the link

Now I'll get the quote; just a second.
Quote
For 15 years, modellers have tried to explain their lack of success in predicting global warming. The climate models had predicted a global temperature increase of 1.5°C by the year 2000, six times more than that which has taken place. Not discouraged, the modellers argue that the heat generated by their claimed “greenhouse warming effect” is being stored in the deep oceans, and that it will eventually come back to haunt us. They’ve needed such a boost to prop up the man-induced greenhouse warming theory, but have had no observational evidence to support it. The Levitus, et al. article is now cited as the needed support.
 

Offline dentstudent

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #31 on: 21/01/2009 16:06:54 »
Don't get me wrong. I am all for reducing the emission of greenhouse gases. What I am against is the scam. The Cap and Trade deal in the Kyoto agreement; in fact the whole of the Kyoto agreement is that scam. The agreement would not reduce greenhouse gases. It would just move the producers of it from one place to another.

I think that "scam" is not the right word. I agree that the Kyoto agreement was perhaps not the best, but at the time, it was necessary. But of course, the lifespan of the KA is almost over, and we await the new agreement very soon.

There are many links within this forum that deal with attributes of CC (of course it's CC - GW was a media term), so I'm not going to reproduce it here. Please take the time out to have a look through them. Whether you agree that it is anthropogenic or not, there is a clear increase in various GHG's which will be detrimental to ecologies and hence societies worldwide (some will heat up, others will cool, some will get wetter, some will get drier, some may even remain constant!). There is more to it that merely the cap and trade discussion.
 

Offline dentstudent

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #32 on: 21/01/2009 16:08:23 »
Heres the link

Now I'll get the quote; just a second.
Quote
For 15 years, modellers have tried to explain their lack of success in predicting global warming. The climate models had predicted a global temperature increase of 1.5°C by the year 2000, six times more than that which has taken place. Not discouraged, the modellers argue that the heat generated by their claimed “greenhouse warming effect” is being stored in the deep oceans, and that it will eventually come back to haunt us. They’ve needed such a boost to prop up the man-induced greenhouse warming theory, but have had no observational evidence to support it. The Levitus, et al. article is now cited as the needed support.

Look - I'm not going to even begin reading a paper about CC that is 10 years old.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #33 on: 21/01/2009 16:15:54 »
Quote
Look - I'm not going to even begin reading a paper about CC that is 10 years old.
That's how long it has been since there was any warming. Up to then there was warming. Since then we have had global cooling. The paper just pointed out that the amount of warming was about an order of magnitude less than that predicted.
« Last Edit: 21/01/2009 16:41:19 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #34 on: 21/01/2009 19:22:25 »
Vern, I agree fully on the Kyoto treatise to be a 'scam'.
Buying 'rights' from undeveloped countries without their own coal powered plants etc, to add to the greenhouse gases is amongst the worst scams I know.
It's just an excuse for keeping on 'shitting' on our Earth without having to take any responsibility.
It's like India said when asked to stop 'developing' their industry.

-Why should we pay for the negligence shown by those that already have gone through the same 'industrial cycle' that we want.
Everyone want to have a 'good life'.
Not only the developed world.
They also said that they would start to take it seriously when the developed countries drew back on their own pollution.

And I understand them.


 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #35 on: 21/01/2009 19:58:56 »

I forgot to mention Greenland :)

Greenland is melting as well as the the Antarctic Peninsula, but not the Antarctic mountain ice sheets. On the other tentacle we can't be sure what's happening under those ice sheets. The ice tunnels with freeflowing water that lubricates and allows the ice sheets to start moving as a whole to finally break up at deep water, is very difficult to foresee and follow.

There have recently been a try on Greenland to follow one of those tunnels with a camera, but it got stuck unfortunately. And it may also be so that not all tunnels goes down to the bottom. But on Greenland it is whole ice sheets that moves as one with a velocity (as of fastest) of about 40 meter/24 hours. It is the fastest movement anyone has measured as yet. And when they meet deep water they finally break up and starts to melt. If all of Greenland melts scientists expect water levels to rise about seven meters.

As a 'by side' it can be mentioned that glaciers is not ice all through.
It seems that they are 'honeycombed' with small 'chambers' filled with water.
That may go some way to explain how the Glaciers can 'move around' obstacles in their path without breaking apart.

There has recently came a Paper from the climate scientist Jim Hansen with colleagues in which he suggests that the Earth System sensitivity is greater than the Charney sensitivity. The standard (Charney) sensitivity is defined as " the global mean surface temperature anomaly response to a doubling of CO2 --- with other boundary conditions staying the same. ---" and there it will be your choice of static boundary conditions that decide the outcomes. In the Hansen's scenario all of those conditions are allowed to vary and interact with the temperature and so allows for a much more fluid response by the weather/temperature to those feedbacks.

here is a link to the Preprint
http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/TargetCO2_20080317.pdf
 

Offline justaskin

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #36 on: 22/01/2009 02:25:17 »
Hi yor_on
I don't think quoting Jim Hansen does your argument any favours.You may as well have thrown Al Gore in for good measure.
I will join you when They
Stop playing sport at night.
Stop flying actors,sportsmen,global warming alarmists and tourists all around the world.
Yor_on make no mistake about it CC is not about saving the planet.It is about the two most important things to humans.
MONEY and POWER and not necessarily in that order.
Oh I forgot when we stop doubling the world population every 10 years

Cheers
justaskin
 

lyner

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #37 on: 22/01/2009 13:32:54 »
would he have the balls to reject carbon trading as the sham it really is?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #38 on: 22/01/2009 14:55:35 »
SC?
Hansen and the 'carbon scam' (Kyoto).
Is that what you wondering about:)

I think he would agree with both Vern and me, but I don't know?

I've seen that in the States it seems as much what politics you trust as scientific evidence.
Maybe it's like that everywhere, in different disguises:)

But to me 'Global Warming' is happening, and even though we don't want it, I can't really see Earth care for our 'opinion'?

So whether Hansen agree to it being a scam is not the uppermost 'fact' to my mind.
I don't want to 'preach' SC.
But I do have my own view:)

The links speaks for them self I think.

« Last Edit: 22/01/2009 15:00:52 by yor_on »
 

lyner

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #39 on: 22/01/2009 19:07:05 »
I was referring to 'the president', actually.
 

Offline Make it Lady

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #40 on: 22/01/2009 19:48:36 »
If everyone had the same lifestyle as we presently do in the richer, western countries then the world is F****d. Equatiy has to mean that we give up stuff in order to raise people out of poverty. The way the world is at the moment is not sustainable. So is it just the responsibility of the president to save the planet. I think not.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #41 on: 22/01/2009 19:55:55 »
I was referring to 'the president', actually.
We've been watching him closely the last few days. It looks like he is taking the path of least resistance. He's swinging to the right enough to make me feel almost comfortable :)
 

Offline Make it Lady

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #42 on: 22/01/2009 20:07:01 »
Red neck!
 

Offline Vern

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Offline yor_on

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #44 on: 22/01/2009 22:35:51 »
Oh, kay SC:)
My bad.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #45 on: 22/01/2009 23:42:18 »
I was referring to 'the president', actually.
We just heard that the president is signing on to the Cap and Trade scheme. But we still have some folks talking to him. Maybe it will be changed somewhat.
 

Offline Make it Lady

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #46 on: 23/01/2009 17:59:17 »
Keep going Barry. I'm behind you.
 

Offline BenV

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #47 on: 23/01/2009 18:59:08 »
I always got the impression that carbon trading worked better within one country than between them, as the rich would be forced to share their wealth with the cautious, thus making the 'low emmision' way of life more attractive to all.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #48 on: 23/01/2009 20:25:50 »
I always got the impression that carbon trading worked better within one country than between them, as the rich would be forced to share their wealth with the cautious, thus making the 'low emmision' way of life more attractive to all.
But when your government starts levying a fines on individuals it will become unpopular very fast. And in countries like mine, probably would not survive the next election.
 

lyner

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #49 on: 23/01/2009 23:03:28 »
The basic problem with carbon trading is that it doesn't produce the right effect. People who didn't want to produce the stuff get paid by people who shouldn't be producing it. That means we get more CO2 produced than we should and someone is getting paid for making us feel better about it. They're not actually 'selling' anything - but coffin nails, possibly.
 

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Re: Does President Obama 'have four years to save Earth' ?
« Reply #49 on: 23/01/2009 23:03:28 »

 

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