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Offline techmind

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« Reply #25 on: 22/01/2009 23:05:04 »
A similar line of thinking is that if we all put several square metres of (dark-coloured) solar panel on our roofs (whether simple thermal/hot-water, or photovoltaic) "for the environment" we'd appreciably increase the solar-absorbtion of the planet.
Food for thought.
 

lyner

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« Reply #26 on: 22/01/2009 23:11:26 »
NSM
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That is incorrect.
Which bit's incorrect?
 

lyner

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« Reply #27 on: 22/01/2009 23:15:28 »
A similar line of thinking is that if we all put several square metres of (dark-coloured) solar panel on our roofs (whether simple thermal/hot-water, or photovoltaic) "for the environment" we'd appreciably increase the solar-absorbtion of the planet.
Food for thought.


Not really. If you made use of that particular received power, you would not need to produce it by burning fuels etc.
White roofs would have a useful function in all circumstances where you didn't actually 'need' the heat.
Plus - whitewashing the desert would be even better value.
 

Offline Karsten

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« Reply #28 on: 23/01/2009 01:21:36 »
I just today read an article (Times I believe) about planting crops that reflect sunlight more efficiently. While they talked a whole lot about genetic engineering, this approach may cover more surface area than the white roads we still would need to build. While corn in Iowa? On the other hand, growing hundreds and hundreds of square miles of reflecting plants makes only sense if we do not fertilize them with products that require the use of fossil fuels.

And could any of this actually counter the disappearance of the huge areas of highly reflective ice?
 

Offline Karsten

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« Reply #29 on: 23/01/2009 01:24:02 »
Not really. If you made use of that particular received power, you would not need to produce it by burning fuels etc.

I often wonder whether solar cells (photovoltaic that is) actually ever create as much energy as it requires to make them. Do you know?
 

lyner

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« Reply #30 on: 23/01/2009 10:18:40 »
It used to be the case that PV cells produced less energy than their manufacture  used but I think it's better than that now.
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #31 on: 23/01/2009 19:02:09 »
All you have to to is make the sale of black tyres illegal and mandate all tyres produced must be white.Hence the continual wear and tear of white tyres will gradually make the roads white.

do you think the residue left by the "wear and tear" will just sit there on the road? I think you will find the wind just may, blow it away.


I just today read an article (Times I believe) about planting crops that reflect sunlight more efficiently. While they talked a whole lot about genetic engineering, this approach may cover more surface area than the white roads we still would need to build. While corn in Iowa? On the other hand, growing hundreds and hundreds of square miles of reflecting plants makes only sense if we do not fertilize them with products that require the use of fossil fuels.


The other problem is, the crops also add to the moisture in the air.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #32 on: 24/01/2009 01:04:55 »
But more crops will mean less carbon dioxide will it not?
 

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« Reply #33 on: 24/01/2009 21:07:52 »
I just noticed:

It should say WHITE corn in Iowa, not "while corn in Iowa". I hope it did not make sense before because it sure was not meant to make sense that way.
 

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« Reply #34 on: 24/01/2009 21:09:51 »
But more crops will mean less carbon dioxide will it not?

I guess that depends on how much CO2 you add while making the synthetic fertilizers from fossil fuels.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #35 on: 25/01/2009 01:08:41 »
But more crops will mean less carbon dioxide will it not?

I guess that depends on how much CO2 you add while making the synthetic fertilizers from fossil fuels.
Why?
 

Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #36 on: 25/01/2009 17:33:56 »
All you have to to is make the sale of black tyres illegal and mandate all tyres produced must be white.Hence the continual wear and tear of white tyres will gradually make the roads white.
[/quoteq

do you think the residue left by the "wear and tear" will just sit there on the road? I think you will find the wind just may, blow it away.


I just today read an article (Times I believe) about planting crops that reflect sunlight more efficiently. While they talked a whole lot about genetic engineering, this approach may cover more surface area than the white roads we still would need to build. While corn in Iowa? On the other hand, growing hundreds and hundreds of square miles of reflecting plants makes only sense if we do not fertilize them with products that require the use of fossil fuels.


Asphalt is porous.

just like chewing cum the white tyre particles will be embedded in it.

also remember it will constantly renewed by white tyres passing over.

I suggest you contact your government official so that he can get it started.

Already incandescent bulbs are being outlawed, let us outlaw black tyres now.

you only need to add a dye to make black tyres look white.

I believe i have seen white tyres somewhere already...possibly antique cars.

 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #37 on: 25/01/2009 17:38:59 »
[just like chewing cum.............




Never have, never will.

FOG
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #38 on: 25/01/2009 20:01:47 »
Whoa!  :o So white coloured objects can't reflect IR, I did not know that... :o
I don't think anyone said that.
I did point out that white objects will reflect visible light which will then leave the earth rather than becomiing trapped and heating it.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #39 on: 26/01/2009 08:48:17 »
So is it true or not?
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #40 on: 26/01/2009 10:37:04 »
I nearly fell of my chair reading this.

Another physicist to whom I spoke also claimed that the increasing numbers of black population people could also contribute to global warming as black skin absorbes radiation more quickly and hence contribute to global warming.as more energy is more quickly absorbed then a white reflective surface.In other words the albedo of the planet is decreasing.

 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #41 on: 26/01/2009 10:42:00 »
Why? Because it is racist?
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #42 on: 26/01/2009 11:00:41 »
This was what Mr. sophiecentaur had to say:

Another physicist to whom I spoke also claimed that the increasing numbers of black population people could also contribute to global warming as black skin absorbes radiation more quickly and hence contribute to global warming.
But it is racist!


"Racist"? What do you understand the word racist means?

The original statement was (very marginally) true and involved no judgement, prejudice or criticism. How does that make it "racist"? The Science was pretty poor though. He clearly hadn't worked through the numbers involved.
 

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« Reply #43 on: 26/01/2009 14:59:02 »
I just noticed:

It should say WHITE corn in Iowa, not "while corn in Iowa". I hope it did not make sense before because it sure was not meant to make sense that way.

Within the last month researchers at bristol university have sort of said what you are thinking. That planting waxy crops (corn, barley) that have a high albido may lower the summer temperatures (local temps, that is...say, state wide) by as much as 1 degree c. One problem with this, as stated above, is that this will increase the summertime dew points giving a higher content of water vapor in te air. This higher water vapor content just may negate the effect they are after.
 

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« Reply #44 on: 27/01/2009 00:35:25 »
But the crops will remove CO2 during photosynthesis, which was what I was talking about a few posts up...
 

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« Reply #45 on: 27/01/2009 08:52:23 »
Regardless of whether or not white road surfaces would be of any use in helping reduce global warming, the fact is that firstly, global warming is a misnomer, our problem is climate change. Temperatures in some regions are rising, but as we in the UK have seen over the past years, temperatures are also reducing in other regions. 2008 brought a dismal summer to the UK, and we are now in the grips of the coldest winter for many years. The reasons for this are being attributed to a shift in the direction of the Gulf Stream and the Jet Stream. I.e. Climate change, not global warming.

Overall global temperatures may be up, but not here in the UK and the UAE, where snow falling this year and in 2004 indicates that we need to address the climate change problem with some regard to regional variations. But this, for the UK, would mean dealing with the problem at it's source and/or along its route. We would need to address our problem in the Gulf of Mexico and the mid Atlantic to bring the Gulf Stream back on course. We do not have the technology for such.

Next is the problem of reflection. In the more northerly regions of Europe, Asia and North America, the Sun hangs low in the sky at the times when the roads are at their busiest. It's bad enough when the road surfaces are wet, but if we had white road surfaces, the reflection problem at times when surfaces are wet would become greater and would still be a problem even when dry. This would result in more accidents. At night, headlamp reflection from oncoming vehicles would also cause visual problems. 'Wear something bright at night' pedestrians and cyclist are advised. All very well until you are on a white road, where you may blend in!

'White tyres would keep the surfaces white' I have seen suggested here. Would they? What about all the other muck which falls on our roads? Soot, soil, airborne dust particles, dog shite, road kills, oil and grease, spillages from commercial vehicles and much much more.

Last, but by no means least, would be the cost. Since black rubber tyres would ruin any white surfaces, and white tyres would be ruined by black surfaces, the changeover could not be spread over decades. It would need to be done over a period of a few years. The cost, in monetary terms, of manpower, equipment and materials to strip and replace the estimated 380,000 kilometres of roads in the UK would be phenomenal. What would be the cost of resurfacing in excess of 6.4m kms of highways alone in the USA? As for the cost in environmental terms, I shudder to think.

There can be only one course to resolving our environmental problems, a dramatic reduction in the human population coupled with the abandonment of globalisation and a return to localisation.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #46 on: 27/01/2009 10:18:29 »
No because the chair tipped up. It was an irrelevent statement that would have been better avoided.
Humans for most part are walking upright and sitting upright. They are clothed. So how on earth does the colour of a persons skin alter global temperatures significantly? Maybe if everyone was naked laying flat exposed directly to the sun as are the roads it might become worthy of interest but a vertical person does not have much surface area exposed. But then you have to eliminate the cooling effect of the circulation within the body. After all we do not see our body temperatures raised more than a degree or 2.
Why? Because it is racist?
« Last Edit: 27/01/2009 10:24:12 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #47 on: 27/01/2009 10:24:33 »
Yeah, well...um...exactly! Especially if those dark skinned people lived in a White House!
« Last Edit: 27/01/2009 10:27:23 by Chemistry4me »
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #48 on: 28/01/2009 12:51:01 »
Regardless of whether or not white road surfaces would be of any use in helping reduce global warming, the fact is that firstly, global warming is a misnomer, our problem is climate change. Temperatures in some regions are rising, but as we in the UK have seen over the past years, temperatures are also reducing in other regions. 2008 brought a dismal summer to the UK, and we are now in the grips of the coldest winter for many years. The reasons for this are being attributed to a shift in the direction of the Gulf Stream and the Jet Stream. I.e. Climate change, not global warming.

This is not strictly true. Summer 2008 was, as far as temperatures are concerned, fairly average. Summer may have been dull and dismal, but also average.

The UK Year In Review - July 2008
The UK Year In Review - June 2008
The UK Year In Review - August 2008

Winter 2008

Depending on where you live in the UK, it was the coldest december since 1996 and 2001.

The UK Year In Review - December 2008

Quote
Overall global temperatures may be up, but not here in the UK and the UAE, where snow falling this year and in 2004 indicates that we need to address the climate change problem with some regard to regional variations.

Snow in the UAE proves nothing with regard to climate change.

Quote
But this, for the UK, would mean dealing with the problem at it's source and/or along its route. We would need to address our problem in the Gulf of Mexico and the mid Atlantic to bring the Gulf Stream back on course. We do not have the technology for such.

But the gulf stream changes with the seasons.

Quote
'White tyres would keep the surfaces white' I have seen suggested here. Would they? What about all the other muck which falls on our roads? Soot, soil, airborne dust particles, dog shite, road kills, oil and grease, spillages from commercial vehicles and much much more.

Yes, just like household dust, any tyre dust will simply look grey and blend in to the colour of the road..black.

Quote
Last, but by no means least, would be the cost. Since black rubber tyres would ruin any white surfaces, and white tyres would be ruined by black surfaces, the changeover could not be spread over decades. It would need to be done over a period of a few years. The cost, in monetary terms, of manpower, equipment and materials to strip and replace the estimated 380,000 kilometres of roads in the UK would be phenomenal. What would be the cost of resurfacing in excess of 6.4m kms of highways alone in the USA? As for the cost in environmental terms, I shudder to think.

There can be only one course to resolving our environmental problems, a dramatic reduction in the human population coupled with the abandonment of globalisation and a return to localisation.


The government will never cough up the monies needed, they have to assume that they have one, maybe two terms in office and so think in the short term. As for the general public, they need to be told that changes they make will help them in the here and now. Lower fuel bills, self sufficient, and all the things they can see. The is a green fatigue and people are simply fed up hearing about climate change and think figures like a global average rise of 3 degrees c in 1000 years is laughable. Education will not work, any preventative measures need to be seen by the population as helping them directly, not generations down the line.
« Last Edit: 28/01/2009 13:02:36 by Paul. »
 

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