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Author Topic: How can we run out of landfill space?  (Read 34844 times)

Offline BenV

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #50 on: 11/03/2009 12:02:20 »
I fear the reason is you and miss sophie are obsessed with attacking the idea is that you did not think of this solution yourself and thus have to expend great energy on dissing someone who has the boldness and vision to break the mould of conventional thinking.
I'm afraid not - they're attacking the idea because it is ill thought out and useless.  And Sophiecentaur is a man.
 

Offline Mazurka

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #51 on: 11/03/2009 13:09:11 »
...
There are no "chasms" in the UK which would be cold enough all year round to prevent anaerobic decay - and as I posted above - as soon as the bugs get going it is very difficult to stop them as they are exothermic. 

Miss sophie still does not understand what a chasm is.She thinks it up a mountain or that a mountain is required for it to exist.I suggest you study geography and topography.

I have checked Holland and it is not perfectly flat at all as you suggest being riddled with chasms,gullies and mineshafts.

In any case Holland is not the world or any other country.

You are quite correct in being wrong in stating that no chasms exist in the UK which are cold.

I suggest you try visiting these chasms with a thermometer.

I fear the reason is you and miss sophie are obsessed with attacking the idea is that you did not think of this solution yourself and thus have to expend great energy on dissing someone who has the boldness and vision to break the mould of conventional thinking.
Ha Ha Ha,
No, the reason that I am "attacking the idea" is that most of my working life has been spent in waste management and particularly landfill - as a rule I tend to make comment on internet fora from knowledge and experience.  If I do make a speculative post, I will make it clear and when rational comment from those better informed than I "diss" it, I will accept being "dissed" with good grace.   

The idea of tipping into chasms or old quarries and mines has been used extensively in the past.  However, rightly, environmental standards have moved on with increasing knowledge of how things (like landfill sites) work.  Historically "dilute and disperse" was the philosophy behind tipping - any pollutants would be diluted down by rain fall/ groundwater and dispersed through the environment so as to be unnoticeable.  This approach has been discredited scientifically as heavy metals and certain organic compounds are so persistent / ecotoxic as to pose a risk to human health.

I can also assure you from personal experience that I do not need to take a thermometer into any chasms in the UK to know that they do not remain cold enough all year round to prevent the bugs starting to anaerobically break down waste.  There is one location high in the Cairngorms where snow has occasionally persisted all year round.  That particular location would not be able to accommodate the total UK waste arising, even if every possible item was removed for reuse or recycling.  For a bit of context, in 2004 a total (before recycling) 335000000 tonnes of waste was generated in the UK

Even if (in another country perhaps) a suitably cold chasm/ gully/ mine could be identified, the cost of haulage (however this is achieved) would be significantly greater than the cost of engineering a solution (whether landfill, recycling plant or incinerator (or all 3)) would be far lower. 
 

Offline Karsten

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #52 on: 11/03/2009 20:43:53 »
Maybe we can get back to whether we will run out of landfill space.

I could imagine living next to or even above a landfill if it was filled with something that I do not object to. The problem with landfills is that they contain toxins that may end up in my food or water, that they contain materials that (for all practical purposes) are around forever and I have to look at them, and that it stinks. If organic materials are removed (and composted as they should), if no toxic materials end up in the land fill, and if materials deteriorate "prettily", I assume the only objection would be the flow of garbage trucks all day long. New landfills are safe only as long as they are designed and built by people who care.

I saw a movie recently that made me think about the garbage issue. "Mon Oncle" by Jacques Tati. It plays in the 1950s and there is a lot of garbage around. Some of the garbage is old-fashioned and returns to nature quite soon. It got swept up, dumped somewhere, and soon it was gone. The new, modern garbage was a bunch of plastic hose that was dumped into the river. Had it not been a movie, it probably would still be there.

I often tell my students that each plastic diaper they ever wore still exists. Probably even the plastic diapers I wore. It makes them think and appreciate the longevity of some plastics in our environment.

If we can reduce what we throw away dramatically and bury only what nature can deal with in a few years, we would have fewer problems with land fills. Maybe the problem is not the landfill as such, but rather our methods of making products from materials that should not be buried or don't go away. Because there used to be a "away".
 

lyner

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #53 on: 11/03/2009 23:09:48 »
The best landfill I ever saw in a film was the Garbage Island in The Ladykillers with Tom Hanks. But it wasn't in a 'chasm'.
 

Offline tangoblue

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #54 on: 12/03/2009 13:22:50 »
i think that instead of using and polluting the land we should dump all of our rubbish into space.  I know it would cost a lot but if NASA would become a bit more eco-friendly then they would do it for free.  I also know that it can be done because NASA launches lots of successfull shuttles every month.
What does everyone else think?
 

Offline BenV

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #55 on: 12/03/2009 13:39:30 »
i think that instead of using and polluting the land we should dump all of our rubbish into space.  I know it would cost a lot but if NASA would become a bit more eco-friendly then they would do it for free.  I also know that it can be done because NASA launches lots of successfull shuttles every month.
What does everyone else think?
It would take an enormous amount of energy though.
 

Offline Lincon

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #56 on: 12/03/2009 13:57:51 »
It looks to me as if the politicians have, yet again, come up with a method of measuring waste which is relatively easy to police but which really doesn't mean much at all.
What do you think?
 

lyner

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #57 on: 12/03/2009 14:22:09 »
NASA couldn't even manage to dump their own rubbish up there. Getting a few kg of payload up there costs thousands of quid.
 

Offline tangoblue

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #58 on: 12/03/2009 17:31:15 »
but NASA could take it up with the shuttle and dump it when they are out of the earths gravitational pull. 

But on the other hand i suppose that would be a heck of a lot more fuel needed for the weight wouldn't it.
 

lyner

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #59 on: 12/03/2009 17:40:54 »
There are no free rides on the shuttle - even if you carry your toffee wrapper up in your pocket!
 

Offline Karsten

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #60 on: 12/03/2009 20:01:46 »
We already seem to be getting into trouble regarding space junk. We already are tracking thousands of pieces of junk to make sure it is not hitting anything valuable and try really hard to not lose anything in addition to what is already up there out of control. Small bits and pieces of trash zipping around at 20,000 mph is not good for satellites or space craft of any form. We would lock ourselves in and make leaving the planet much more dangerous and difficult than it already is. I assume the two satellites that collided recently added a good load to the problem.

Totally unpractical. If kilograms are VERY expensive, imagine how expensive the 4 pounds of trash are that are produced by every US-American EVERY day. And that is just talking about lower orbits.
 

Offline NobodySavedMe

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #61 on: 16/03/2009 00:37:05 »
...
There are no "chasms" in the UK which would be cold enough all year round to prevent anaerobic decay - and as I posted above - as soon as the bugs get going it is very difficult to stop them as they are exothermic. 

Miss sophie still does not understand what a chasm is.She thinks it up a mountain or that a mountain is required for it to exist.I suggest you study geography and topography.

I have checked Holland and it is not perfectly flat at all as you suggest being riddled with chasms,gullies and mineshafts.

In any case Holland is not the world or any other country.

You are quite correct in being wrong in stating that no chasms exist in the UK which are cold.

I suggest you try visiting these chasms with a thermometer.

I fear the reason is you and miss sophie are obsessed with attacking the idea is that you did not think of this solution yourself and thus have to expend great energy on dissing someone who has the boldness and vision to break the mould of conventional thinking.
Ha Ha Ha,
No, the reason that I am "attacking the idea" is that most of my working life has been spent in waste management and particularly landfill - as a rule I tend to make comment on internet fora from knowledge and experience.  If I do make a speculative post, I will make it clear and when rational comment from those better informed than I "diss" it, I will accept being "dissed" with good grace.   

The idea of tipping into chasms or old quarries and mines has been used extensively in the past.  However, rightly, environmental standards have moved on with increasing knowledge of how things (like landfill sites) work.  Historically "dilute and disperse" was the philosophy behind tipping - any pollutants would be diluted down by rain fall/ groundwater and dispersed through the environment so as to be unnoticeable.  This approach has been discredited scientifically as heavy metals and certain organic compounds are so persistent / ecotoxic as to pose a risk to human health.

I can also assure you from personal experience that I do not need to take a thermometer into any chasms in the UK to know that they do not remain cold enough all year round to prevent the bugs starting to anaerobically break down waste.  There is one location high in the Cairngorms where snow has occasionally persisted all year round.  That particular location would not be able to accommodate the total UK waste arising, even if every possible item was removed for reuse or recycling.  For a bit of context, in 2004 a total (before recycling) 335000000 tonnes of waste was generated in the UK

Even if (in another country perhaps) a suitably cold chasm/ gully/ mine could be identified, the cost of haulage (however this is achieved) would be significantly greater than the cost of engineering a solution (whether landfill, recycling plant or incinerator (or all 3)) would be far lower. 

Mazurka you are wrong if you think experience qualifies you to reject the idea.

It is well known that older people tend to be ossified in their thought patterns and are resistant to any new ideas, therefore following this ingrained mind set,you dismiss the idea as it would force to adjust the thought patterns in your head into new pathways.This happens to older people.

Remember Clarke's Law?

You only have to look at any map and see it is full of mountainous areas with chasms adjacent in every country.

Refuse does not have to be transported at all.No danger of leakage as most rubbish is encased in plastic bags anyway. 

I fear that established thought patterns have moulded your thinking similar to the luddite brigade of years gone by.

 
« Last Edit: 16/03/2009 00:39:56 by NobodySavedMe »
 

Offline Karsten

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #62 on: 16/03/2009 01:49:40 »
Refuse does not have to be transported at all.No danger of leakage as most rubbish is encased in plastic bags anyway. 

ENCASED in plastic bags?
"encased : to enclose in or as if in a case"

Now there is a serious way to stop leakage. These plastic bags things will stop anything. They never leak. They never get punctured. No wild animal (mouse, squirrel, crow, etc.) can tear them open. They get handled carefully when they are loaded, transported, dumped, and are bulldozed in place. They don't rip when dumped onto sharp objects, e.g. a branch. They don't blow open when something heavy falls on them. Great stuff. Impenetrable basically.

Mazurka you are wrong if you think experience qualifies you to reject the idea.

It is well known that older people tend to be ossified in their thought patterns and are resistant to any new ideas, therefore following this ingrained mind set,you dismiss the idea as it would force to adjust the thought patterns in your head into new pathways.This happens to older people.
(...)
I fear that established thought patterns have moulded your thinking similar to the luddite brigade of years gone by.

NSM, I am not a great friend of people putting their years of experience forward to block new ideas without justification. However, it seems your idea is not thought out well and it has been explained why. It is impractical. It is expensive. It is dangerous. In addition, it is barbaric and uncivilized in my opinion. We cannot get new landfills approved locally and you are talking about hauling it long-distance to some chasms somewhere to stay forever. In the USA alone that is around 17 billion tons of garbage every year. It would not find approval unless it happens to some developed country where the rights of the people who live nearby are not considered.

Just because people don't go for your idea does not mean they are inflexible or stubborn. Just because your idea runs into opposition or counter arguments does not mean it is progressive or even good. Just like experience alone does not equal wisdom, novelty does not equal quality. You will have to convince the people here and so far that seems to not have happened. Don't make other people (and your perceptions regarding their mind-set) responsible for your inability to convince.
« Last Edit: 16/03/2009 01:52:10 by Karsten »
 

Offline Mazurka

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #63 on: 16/03/2009 10:57:33 »
I am glad that your suggestions are evolving; it is the plastic bags that now make it a sensible idea, rather than the cold.

There is an irony in this, as modern landfill sites often use a Flexible Membrane Liner (FML)as part of their construction.  The FML is constructed from HDPE plastic, welded into one piece.  When the site is capped off, another FML is laid over the top and also welded into place to prevent emissions from the site and to allow th inevitable landfill gas and leachate (water that has percoloated through to be managed).  In effect the waste is encpasulted in a giant plastic bag.

I am unsure what part of your suggestion you think is novel or innovative?  As I posted it is known as "dilute and disperse" and is no longer considered to be environmentally or socially acceptable.  In the UK, standards and waste disposal philosphy were re-examined following a rather unfortunate incident.  Tipping waste into an unlinned disused quarry in Derbyshire, England near the village of Loscoe lead to landfill gas migrating from the site and building up in a small house.  The owners came back, switched on a light and the resulting explosion leveled the house.

I am also unsure what you mean by "does not have to be transported at all", unless you are suggesting that I just throw my bagged waste out of my back door and have nothing more to do with it.

I am sorry if I came across as arrogantly dismissing your ideas due to my knowledge and experience.  I have seen a considerable evolution in waste disposal and understand why (and indeed embrace) certain new technologies/ approaches have been developed.  Your idea as you have expressed it is nothing new, as i have tried to explain in earlier posts. It is all very well alluding to Clarke’s Law, but in this particular case, Einstein’s “standing on the shoulders of giants” is more apt...       
 

Offline BenV

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #64 on: 16/03/2009 11:58:47 »
Just to let you know, NobodySavedMe has been banned for consitently causing offense on the forum, and so will not be replying.  His idea had been comprehensively discredited anyway, so it's no great loss to this thread.
 

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How can we run out of landfill space?
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