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Author Topic: Has a new plant species been created?  (Read 9418 times)

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« on: 23/01/2009 07:19:01 »
There are three different (that is what I think) plants in the garden, two of them, were planted there, the third one just popped out of the ground one day.
Let me show you...



Green leaves right? I can assure you that there are no prickles, it was planted there.



Yellow leaves right? This one has got prickles, it was also planted there.

Now this is the one that popped out of the ground, it has got green leaves, but... it also has prickles!!  :o :o :o



See the prickles!!!



What is going on here? Do you think the two plants could have done something and created a new species? ??? ??? Or is it just some random plant that got there somehow, actually, there are three of these 'new' species  :o :o
« Last Edit: 23/01/2009 07:23:51 by Chemistry4me »


 

Offline dentstudent

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #1 on: 23/01/2009 08:33:08 »
Sometimes plants can be controlled to have certain characteristics, but when they reproduce, these charactersitics are lost. An example is the twisty form of Hazel (Corkscrew Hazel Corylus avellana "Contorta") which, if you grow a new bush from a nut produced by this bush, will return to its original, non-twisty from. Someone can help with the genetics here, I'm sure, but I would guess that the twisty gene is recessive and had to be controlled to have the desired effect. My thoughts therefore are that #2 plant was grown specifically for its yellow leaves, and that #3 plant may be the offspring of #2, but the yellow leaf gene is recessive to the green leaf gene, and so is not apparent.

Possibly.

There may be other solutions, for example, many trees are grown from different root stock (especially fruit trees), whereby the desired tree is grafted onto the stem of another. Is there a "collar" feature on the #2 tree, at about 50cm or so? This might indicate a graft. It might be that this tree species reproduces through underground shooting (similar to bamboo), so if the root stock is from a graft, then the new tree would be the same as the root stock tree, and not the grafted tree.

It might also be that tree #3 has absolutely nothing to do with either of them!
« Last Edit: 23/01/2009 08:38:35 by dentstudent »
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #2 on: 23/01/2009 08:41:42 »
Okay, I'll go have a look tomorrow.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #3 on: 23/01/2009 08:44:11 »
The green one is called a mop top (I am fairly certain) and the yellow one is either frisia or robinia (or both), can't quite remember, but one of them is the second part of the latin name (I think!)
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #4 on: 23/01/2009 08:45:31 »
Aha! The yellow one is Robinia pseudoacacia 'Frisia'
 

Offline dentstudent

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #5 on: 23/01/2009 08:50:05 »
Aha! The yellow one is Robinia pseudoacacia 'Frisia'

This indicates that the Robinia has been hybrid into the "Frisia" form. We have a lot of standard Robinia around here, and the leaves are as in #3.
 

Offline Don_1

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #6 on: 23/01/2009 08:50:20 »
Robinia (False Acacia)indeed, if the leaves remain yellow all year and it has pea like flowers.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #7 on: 23/01/2009 08:53:28 »
Like this:

 

Offline dentstudent

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #8 on: 23/01/2009 08:54:06 »
Robinia (False Acacia)indeed, if the leaves remain yellow all year and it has pea like flowers.

It is part of the pea family, like Laburnum.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #9 on: 23/01/2009 08:55:11 »
The yellow leaves don't remain all year round, neither does the green ones.
 

Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #10 on: 23/01/2009 08:56:42 »
The yellow leaves don't remain all year round, neither does the green ones.

Robinia are deciduous....But I think that Don meant that the leaves remain yellow when they are out, and don't alter their colour during the year.
 

Offline Don_1

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #11 on: 23/01/2009 08:58:50 »
Yes indeed.

You are quite right about these Frisia being grown on stock roots. This variety is grafted onto stock root. What you have growing as your 3rd tree are the result of 'suckers', the stock root growing it's own tree top.
 

Offline dentstudent

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #12 on: 23/01/2009 09:04:22 »
Yes indeed.

You are quite right about these Frisia being grown on stock roots. This variety is grafted onto stock root. What you have growing as your 3rd tree are the result of 'suckers', the stock root growing it's own tree top.

Glad to know that I'm in the right business!
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #13 on: 23/01/2009 09:13:09 »
I've just realised that I've never seen flowers on the mop top!
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #14 on: 23/01/2009 09:15:59 »
What you have growing as your 3rd tree are the result of 'suckers', the stock root growing it's own tree top.
So what do you think is going on? All this technical talk, I cannot comprehend!
 

Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #15 on: 23/01/2009 09:19:56 »
How close is #2 to #3?
 

Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #16 on: 23/01/2009 09:23:57 »
Also, have a look at Honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos)
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #17 on: 23/01/2009 09:27:38 »
Not as close as #1 is to #3, probably 10-12 meters, but if you look at the picture of #1, you can actually see #3 on the left hand side.
 

Offline Don_1

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #18 on: 23/01/2009 11:20:02 »
How long have you had #1 and was it always the colour it is now?

If you did not plant #1 & #2, it is possible that #1 was the same as #2, but suckers growing from the root stock took away the nutrients to the grafted tree, so it did not survive. Suckers should be removed to protect the grafted plant.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #19 on: 23/01/2009 21:26:41 »
We've had #1 for 2-3 years and it has always had green leaves.

If you did not plant #1 & #2, it is possible that #1 was the same as #2, but suckers growing from the root stock took away the nutrients to the grafted tree, so it did not survive. Suckers should be removed to protect the grafted plant.
I don't understand all this technical stuff ?????????
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #20 on: 24/01/2009 02:23:50 »
There may be other solutions, for example, many trees are grown from different root stock (especially fruit trees), whereby the desired tree is grafted onto the stem of another. Is there a "collar" feature on the #2 tree, at about 50cm or so? This might indicate a graft.

Like this?



Here are the shape of the leaves.

 

Offline Don_1

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #21 on: 24/01/2009 14:20:30 »
The trunk of #2 certainly looks like it has been grafted. I'm sure I can just detect the evidence of a diagonal line running from just below the collar on the left side of the picture down to the right side.

Tree #1 looks older than #2, when you planted it, it may already have been quite old.

As to the thorns, I've done a little checking in my books and discovered that the thorns are a feature of younger trees and may disappear as the tree ages.

This species is known as 'Black Locust' in it's native SE US. It can be an invasive plant.

I would suggest cutting the new plants back ground level, unless you want them. At the distance they are from #1 & 2 I don't think they are suckers, more likely saplings from seed.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #22 on: 24/01/2009 23:07:28 »
I would suggest cutting the new plants back ground level, unless you want them. At the distance they are from #1 & 2 I don't think they are suckers, more likely saplings from seed.
And what exactly is that?
 

Offline Don_1

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #23 on: 25/01/2009 13:23:28 »
Hybrid plants may not be able to reproduce by seed an identical copy of the plant, they will often produce a plant which has reverted to one of the original plants from which they were hybridised. To ensure a true copy of the hybrid plant, cuttings are taken from the plant and grafted to a root stock of the original plant. This is also done sometimes because the hybrid plant, when grown from seed, does not form such a strong root system.

There are several different grafting techniques. The one used on your tree is this:


Suckers (so called because they suck nutrients from the graft)can grow from the stock root. This usually occurs from just below ground level. I suppose they could be likened to rejection in organ transplants. The root tries to grow it's own top growth from below the graft. Nutrients will go to this growth, depriving the grafted growth, which would eventually die back leaving the non-hybridised tree to continue to grow.

Since your saplings are so far from the point where suckers would normally grow, I think one or the other (possibly both) your trees have self seeded.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #24 on: 25/01/2009 22:42:32 »
So wait... what do you think #3 is? Not a new species, we've worked that one out. But do you think it came from the #1 tree?
 

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #24 on: 25/01/2009 22:42:32 »

 

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