# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Dark matter and Gravity  (Read 2888 times)

#### Wishfullthinker

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« on: 25/01/2009 16:25:59 »
Hello, I am new to this forum and have a theory but don't have enough knowledge on the mathematics and physics to really be able to make a theorem about it, or even attempt to publish it.  So, I will post it here, to let the residents take a look at it and either just tell me I am flat out wrong, or investigate it themselves further.

A while ago I was watching a Television show about gravity and dark matter.  The current theory on dark matter to me feels a little off, just because it says there is stuff there that we can only detect by the gravity it gives off.  So I thought a bit and came up with a possible alternate solution to where the gravity is coming from.
One time I saw an explanation on how gravity worked, They likened it to a piece of paper on which an object is placed, this causes a divot in the paper, so if you roll a ball bearing near the object the ball bearing is "pulled " to it.  So I got thinking, using the same analogy, if you turn the paper over you have a bulge, and when you roll a bearing near the bulge, it moves away.  So the question is could these "Bulges" be out there in the universe causing this dark matter illusion.  The biggest obstacle would be the about of dark matter that is estimated to be in the universe.  It's just way more than the amount of matter.  But if we go back to the paper analogy again and this time, fold the paper, when we place the object on the paper, we have multiple bulges and multiple divots, from one object.

(Originally posted in the Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology, was suggested that I repost it here, for a better response)

#### DoctorBeaver

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #1 on: 25/01/2009 16:33:50 »
In that case I shall re=post my earlier reply

If gravity forms these dips in spacetime, why do you need bulges to explain dark matter? Dark matter is affected by gravity in the same way ordinary matter is.

#### Wishfullthinker

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #2 on: 25/01/2009 16:48:54 »
The idea I am suggesting is that matter causes a bulge's and/or divot's elsewhere in the universe.  These are the things that cause this illusion of dark matter.  I hadn't heard that dark matter is affected by gravity, It would make sense, but dark matter is still hypothetical.   Have they seen gravitational effects traveling, giving them the idea that it is affect by gravity and moving.  Could this be explained by the movement of the celestial bodies moving through space causing these "Bulges" to move in accordance with them.

#### Vern

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #3 on: 25/01/2009 16:50:28 »
Hi Wishfullthinker; yes; Einstein did envision gravity wells wherein space and time were warped and objects followed the path of least resistance through the warped space. Your idea expands on that and suggests that maybe folding space around the warps might cause dark matter. It is hard for me to visualize that concept. I like Filbert Wagman's take on it:
Quote
Ain't but one thing you gotta know to get it nailed down just exactly how it is that gravity works. First off, you gotta have a universe made out of photons like showed in How The Universe Is Built. Then pay close attention to Planck's Constant. Can't be no other way; Planck's Constant makes gravity happen.

When you get down to figuring real hard on just exactly what Planck's Constant really is, things start to click. That constant is something a photon has, but what exactly is it? First off; we already know photons have gravity attraction for each other; mainstream physics tells us that. What we're doing here is showing how come that is.

Photons are made out of electromagnetic change. Ain't nothing else to'um. So, Planck's Constant gotta be contained somehow in electromagnetic change. This change that is a photon swings from a peak on the negative side then to a peak on the positive side as a photon moves past. Don't  matter which comes first; might be positive that starts it off just as easy.

The arithmetic you use to figure the Planck's Constant number don't need nothing but the speed of the change from peak to peak. It don't use or need the amplitude value of the peak. The only way that can happen is the peak amplitude is always the same constant amount. The reason that has to be so is that photons have peaks and the arithmetic don't use them. And that means that the constant amplitude of photons is the seat root cause of Planck's Constant.

Think on that for awhile. Make sure you see that this is so. Because, if that is so, it demands and predicts that all photons must move toward each other. Sounds kinda like gravity; don't it?

Think of a photon as it ripples through space and concentrate on the peak amplitude point. As that point swims through the remnient fields of other photons, them remnient fields gotta be part of  peak amplitude. If the remnient fields are stronger in one direction the swimming point must be slightly offset toward that stronger direction bacause of the contribution from the remnient fields.
« Last Edit: 25/01/2009 16:57:14 by Vern »

#### graham.d

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #4 on: 25/01/2009 17:02:21 »
If you have bulges you would see repulsion rather than attraction. I don't see how this leads to satisfying the observations that imply the presence of dark matter.

The theory that there must be more matter than we can see is primarily based on observations of galaxies. The mean potential energy and the mean kinetic energy of all objects in a closed system (thought to be a good approximation for a galaxy) are related by the "virial theorem". The calculations have been done based on various models for various types of galaxy and, no matter the galaxy type, one conclusion is that that galaxies have much more mass than can be observed.

There are many other competing theories, some of which, deserve more consideration. In particular there are several involving a non-constant value for the Gravitational "constant" G. One of these theories looks at the inconsistency of the measurements of G and suggest that the value may depend on the closeness of other masses (on both a very large scale and close by masses) and others suggest a change of G with time. Google - gravitational constant varying - and read some of the resulting websites.

#### Wishfullthinker

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #5 on: 25/01/2009 17:11:44 »
If you have bulges you would see repulsion rather than attraction. I don't see how this leads to satisfying the observations that imply the presence of dark matter.

The theory that there must be more matter than we can see is primarily based on observations of galaxies. The mean potential energy and the mean kinetic energy of all objects in a closed system (thought to be a good approximation for a galaxy) are related by the "virial theorem". The calculations have been done based on various models for various types of galaxy and, no matter the galaxy type, one conclusion is that that galaxies have much more mass than can be observed.

There are many other competing theories, some of which, deserve more consideration. In particular there are several involving a non-constant value for the Gravitational "constant" G. One of these theories looks at the inconsistency of the measurements of G and suggest that the value may depend on the closeness of other masses (on both a very large scale and close by masses) and others suggest a change of G with time. Google - gravitational constant varying - and read some of the resulting websites.

The idea that bulges make dark matter is that if there is a gravitational force being applied to an object, how can we tell if something is being pulled from one direction or pushed from another.  So the bulges would be in the opposite areas that dark matter is currently thought to reside.

I have looked up the websites that you suggest, so far I haven't seen anything that doesn't go way over my head.  But I will keep looking and try to make some sense of the concept

#### Vern

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #6 on: 25/01/2009 17:14:54 »
Quote from: graham.d
There are many other competing theories, some of which, deserve more consideration. In particular there are several involving a non-constant value for the Gravitational "constant" G. One of these theories looks at the inconsistency of the measurements of G and suggest that the value may depend on the closeness of other masses (on both a very large scale and close by masses) and others suggest a change of G with time. Google - gravitational constant varying - and read some of the resulting websites.
The thing I see missing in most contemplations about the mass of galaxies is the light and particles thrown out by all the stars. All this stuff must contribute to the total mass; and a galaxy a hundred light years across will produce a bunch of stuff that has to go out into space. Most of it probably would not have escape velocity; so it would go out, slow down, and come back.

#### Vern

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##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #7 on: 25/01/2009 18:54:15 »
Quote from: Wishfillthinker
I have looked up the websites that you suggest, so far I haven't seen anything that doesn't go way over my head.  But I will keep looking and try to make some sense of the concept
You probably know that the Dark Matter concept was introduced to explain how it is that the outer edges of galaxies move faster than our physics can explain if we count the mass as being only what we can see. I am not sure of the reason but they seem to have ruled out an over abundance of burned out stars etc. and want the extra  mass to be something different than the normal mass that we know about.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Dark matter and Gravity
« Reply #7 on: 25/01/2009 18:54:15 »