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Author Topic: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?  (Read 244728 times)

Offline witsend

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #275 on: 26/06/2009 00:39:44 »
I have built your circuit many times. It's a relay driver. They work conventionally.Sophiecentaur

Yet another example of a total misconception of the experiment and its intention.  It is NOT a relay driver.

And I joined this forum because its the best fun I've had since Christmas.  There are not that many people who give up their time to 'talk physics'.  I spend a fortune on phonecalls to various friends from all over the world just to indulge this passion.  My own circle of family and friends don't have a clue what I'm on about and quite frankly it's lonely.  This fills that gap. I just wish I could get past the personality and get back to physics.  If you were less destructive you'd be ideal.  But you're on a mission.  I think you're trying to protect the purity of physics from fraudulent misreprestations.  You haven't the ability to tell fraud from a left foot.  And I'm no fraud.     
« Last Edit: 26/06/2009 07:17:53 by witsend »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #276 on: 26/06/2009 08:08:37 »
You make your point very clear Stefan, transparent actually and not a point of view I am unfamiliar with, coming from predominantly people who prefer the literature to remain un-tested.
Labelling me as a creationist says you have not bothered to read what I have written, else you would see that I have no religious interests and do not dwell in a belief system. You do yourself a disservice and add nothing to this discussion with your sneers.


 
Andrew, your embryo argument has been refuted by several of us already. Please be less like a creationist and stop using it - how stupid do you think we are?

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=18961.msg216255#msg216255
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=18961.msg216702#msg216702
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=18961.msg216712#msg216712

More generally, it would be nice if you either become more sensible or stop arguing about physics and medicine altogether.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #277 on: 26/06/2009 09:02:04 »
You are like a creationist in that you keep using dead arguments and don't listen to reason.

Do you think your nonsense is a valuable contribution?
 

Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #278 on: 26/06/2009 11:41:01 »
Andrew, the point here is that Sophiecentaur does to original thought is what rain does to fire and dampness does to squids.  I'm beginning to get an obsessive interest in the personality type.  But I would strongly recommend that you don't try and reason with him unless you actually quote from a text book.  He has a certain stiffness.  A want of flexibility.  Struggles a little with the abstract thought.  And he trawls through the new ideas threads because he's determined to kill any such, at birth.

He's also a scientist who makes up his mind about an experimental results without doing the experiment.  Rather a contradiction in terms. So don't get discouraged.  Then he'd have achieved his object.  He's not interested in the idea.  He's only determined to put you down.   

I disagree entirely.  Sophiecentaur would, no doubt, be thrilled to see established science proven wrong and updated - but only provided it is on solid enough evidence and theory.  If he's pushing you at all, it's to make your science better, not to destroy it.
 

lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #279 on: 26/06/2009 12:40:20 »
AKF
Quote
Labelling me as a creationist says you have not bothered to read what I have written,
You shot yourself in the foot there, I'm afraid.
If you "had read" what was written, you would have seen that stefan said that you were "like a creationist" and not"a creationist".
I'm afraid that you see what you want to see and make what you want to out of what you observe and what you read. A bit more discipline might help to improve your grasp of Science and allow you to make valid conclusions.

 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #280 on: 26/06/2009 13:11:45 »
You are like a creationist in that you keep using dead arguments and don't listen to reason.

Do you think your nonsense is a valuable contribution?
Much better argument than the arguments relied upon in the literature!

Repeat: Osmosis does not account for the fluid transport volumes observed in tall trees. Root pressure is a joke. Cohesion tension theory sucks and capillary action cannot account for the size of tubular dead cells found in the xylem of tall trees. And let's not forget Strasburger's experiments that rulled out any living processes actively involved in bulk flow.

You are defending erroneous literature!
 

Offline witsend

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #281 on: 26/06/2009 13:21:32 »
Hi BenV.  Always delighted to see your input.  It continually amazes me that you actually follow these threads.  I'm sure you know the analogy of the wind and the sun.  They took a bet as to who could encourage man to take off his coat.  Wind tried to blow it off and failed.  Sun achieved his object with relative ease.

There's a wild lack of constructive input and an entire want of good manners.  Points are taken in isolation and the overview is so wanting that it becomes positively absurd. He enjoys this liberal barrage of insult at the cost of my intellectual respect.  But I grant you, I possibly parade that lack too freely.  However, in my defense, when I draw breath and try again, I am simply again reminded of his aptitudes - or his lack of them.

 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #282 on: 26/06/2009 13:22:44 »
Sophie, I really appreciate your guidance and for showing me how this needs to be presented.

I have an offer of much needed help with presenting a paper for publication from a retired doctor and engineer.

Ben you are Bang to right on Sophie's intentions. Ok we have had a few disagreements and occasionally a few terse comments, but generally most helpful and shows my failings of oversimplifying while trying to present my observations.

Witsend, you will find that the responses you receive will be more favourable if you refrain from attacking the person rather than the subject at hand. Yes it can be frustrating to try to explain a new direction in a way that it has clarity for all concerned, but at least we can learn how what we write is interpreted by others and this makes for a stronger argument in the end.

Andrew
 

Offline witsend

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #283 on: 26/06/2009 13:29:24 »
Witsend, you will find that the responses you receive will be more favourable if you refrain from attacking the person rather than the subject at hand. Yes it can be frustrating to try to explain a new direction in a way that it has clarity for all concerned, but at least we can learn how what we write is interpreted by others and this makes for a stronger argument in the end. Andrew K Fletcher


Andrew, I am entirely satisfied with the responses I get in this forum - with the entire exception of Sophiecentaur's.  But I'm glad he seems to serve you as a guide to lighten the light - so to speak.  Me, I find his input obnoxious and counter productive.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #284 on: 26/06/2009 13:50:47 »
Put aside your other arguments (which pale in comparison to sophiecentaur's and others' criticisms) for a moment.

You used the embryo argument in a different thread and we demolished it. Yet you repeated it to us in this thread. Do you think we are idiots? Try having some intellectual integrity, Andrew.

You are like a creationist in that you keep using dead arguments and don't listen to reason.

Do you think your nonsense is a valuable contribution?
Much better argument than the arguments relied upon in the literature!

Repeat: Osmosis does not account for the fluid transport volumes observed in tall trees. Root pressure is a joke. Cohesion tension theory sucks and capillary action cannot account for the size of tubular dead cells found in the xylem of tall trees. And let's not forget Strasburger's experiments that rulled out any living processes actively involved in bulk flow.

You are defending erroneous literature!
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #285 on: 26/06/2009 16:49:05 »
Put aside your other arguments (which pale in comparison to sophiecentaur's and others' criticisms) for a moment.

No one demolished the argument  about gravity influencing embryo development Stefan, how could they? NASA and the former USSR space programmes have done ample research and shown that gravity plays a crucial part in embryo development. Do some homework before jumping to conclusions.

But please start a new thread rather than distracting this one.

Quote
You used the embryo argument in a different thread and we demolished it. Yet you repeated it to us in this thread. Do you think we are idiots? Try having some intellectual integrity, Andrew.

You are like a creationist in that you keep using dead arguments and don't listen to reason.

Do you think your nonsense is a valuable contribution?
Much better argument than the arguments relied upon in the literature!

Repeat: Osmosis does not account for the fluid transport volumes observed in tall trees. Root pressure is a joke. Cohesion tension theory sucks and capillary action cannot account for the size of tubular dead cells found in the xylem of tall trees. And let's not forget Strasburger's experiments that rulled out any living processes actively involved in bulk flow.

You are defending erroneous literature!
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #286 on: 26/06/2009 17:17:06 »
That gravity influences physiology is not the argument. The argument we demolished is that gravity has the effect you think it does.

You brought this up yourself, so it can stay in this thread however inconvenient it may be for your agenda.   

Meanwhile, please start responding more effectively to sophiecentaur's posts. He's been more patient with you than I think you deserve.

No one demolished the argument  about gravity influencing embryo development Stefan, how could they? NASA and the former USSR space programmes have done ample research and shown that gravity plays a crucial part in embryo development. Do some homework before jumping to conclusions.

But please start a new thread rather than distracting this one.

Put aside your other arguments (which pale in comparison to sophiecentaur's and others' criticisms) for a moment.

You used the embryo argument in a different thread and we demolished it. Yet you repeated it to us in this thread. Do you think we are idiots? Try having some intellectual integrity, Andrew.

You are like a creationist in that you keep using dead arguments and don't listen to reason.

Do you think your nonsense is a valuable contribution?
Much better argument than the arguments relied upon in the literature!

Repeat: Osmosis does not account for the fluid transport volumes observed in tall trees. Root pressure is a joke. Cohesion tension theory sucks and capillary action cannot account for the size of tubular dead cells found in the xylem of tall trees. And let's not forget Strasburger's experiments that rulled out any living processes actively involved in bulk flow.

You are defending erroneous literature!
 

Offline witsend

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #287 on: 26/06/2009 18:07:30 »
Andrew K Fletcher,

I assure you that if you EVER email me again with such fatuous comments I shall copy that email and paste it on this thread.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #288 on: 29/06/2009 17:28:50 »
Do what you want, and welcome to my ignore list.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #289 on: 29/06/2009 21:28:12 »
Andrew K Fletcher,

I assure you that if you EVER email me again with such fatuous comments I shall copy that email and paste it on this thread.
Please enlighten the rest of us. It seems that Andrew isn't bothered and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders what he said.
 

Offline witsend

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #290 on: 29/06/2009 21:45:58 »
Hi Bored Chemist

It was nothing interesting.  Andrew wrongly assumed that I shared his opinion about certain things.  I must assume it was emailed because he wanted that opinion kept confidential.

« Last Edit: 29/06/2009 21:48:00 by witsend »
 

lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #291 on: 29/06/2009 23:02:16 »
I don't think PMs are appropriate for these sorts of interchanges. Keep it public.
When Lawyers start  to communicate out of court, someone has realised they're on dodgy ground .
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #292 on: 01/07/2009 09:20:41 »
Question for B.C. et al.

If a tree is suspended vertically in a bath of picric acid has it's roots severed as was the case with Strasburger's experiment showing circulation continued for weeks following the event, despite the tree being completely killed by the influx of acid. What would this acid do to the semi-permiable membranes within the tree? Worth remembering that the leaves were completely killed yet obvious transpiration carried on inside the tree unaffected by this destruction of all living processes.

Andrew
 

lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #293 on: 01/07/2009 09:43:11 »
AKF
As usual, you gather a lot of evidence and most of it is sound. You may have revealed a contentious issue - which is interesting. (The reactions you have been getting from other members show that they agree with what I am saying.)
The problem is that you keep trying to impose your own explanation on the phenomenon. If your model doesn't apply elsewhere in Science, then you can't insist that it is valid in this particular case. Science doesn't work in compartments - there must be an explanation which satisfies all conditions - not just in Biological situations - and your model really does not fit the majority of evidence.

Have you never considered that your fundamental view of basic Physics could be flawed? Is it not just possible that conventional Science - which you resent so much - could have got things right about Physics? You seem to want to argue with basic Mechanics in addition to biological phenomena which may be harder to measure and model. Your explanations contain far too much much metaphor and simile and not enough numerical evidence to back them up. Just because you can't imagine why, when you're wrong, proves nothing.

That paper you referred me to says nothing about your particular theory. Did you ever wonder why?

« Last Edit: 01/07/2009 09:45:33 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #294 on: 06/07/2009 10:01:35 »
Test the experiments for yourself before jumping to conclusions about how this fits with other systems.

I gave the ocean current "Atlantic Conveyor system as one example with density flow. Another with a domestic hot water pumpless system, another with air density changes relating to hot desert coastlines causing a thermal barrier which prevents the denser moisture laden air from crossing onto the land.

Another with density changes in the blood relating to how dialysis works and indeed how posture alters density in urine.

Far from not fitting it does indeed fit.

Your cuppa in the morning relies on leaves storing salts and sugars. Fruits rely on sugars migrating from a source to a sink.

finger nails and toe nails rely on density changes in order to grow where they grow as do elephant tusks!

Gravity is the key factor in all of this!

How could we work out a density change mathematically in say a cloud passing by, could we explain accurately by how much it's density is affected by heat from the ground, energy from the sun and a cold breeze passing through it? Or would it be more productive to observe the cloud rising or falling?
« Last Edit: 06/07/2009 10:04:32 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #295 on: 06/07/2009 10:40:28 »
There is nothing at all new about the mechanism of convection, due to thermal density changes or circulation due to the addition of solutes. The forces and the energy involved all account for the values observed. You seem to be  claiming that you have something new here. Why? No one has denied that it happens - the objection is that you seem to have commandeered it as as 'source' of motive energy.

Of course gravity is involved. When you drop a stone on your foot, 'gravity is involved'. Left to itself, however, gravity won't do it again. Someone has to lift the stone again - providing gravitational potential energy - before it can happen again. 'Gravity' is not the source of the energy, any more than a watch spring is the source of energy for a watch.

You have your usual list of observable processes, as if that actually constitutes proof of anything (apart from the fact that they happen).

As for calculations about clouds vs standing watching them - it depends what you want out of the exercise. If you want a chance of predicting what will happen with a cloud under a new set of circumstances then you need to get some understanding of the Physics involved. As you are posting on a Science Forum, I should have thought that would be your interest. The analysis of clouds is not difficult - it's done all the time, along with a lot of other thermodynamic calculations.
If you had no idea of what was going on in a cloud apart from the fact that it was rising or falling, how would it increase the sum total of human knowledge? You would need to study / measure the parameters of that cloud and then do some ACTUAL SUMS (Andrew!!!!) before you would get anywhere at all.
I'm afraid your maths-free approach to your theories is of even less use than alcohol-free Whiskey.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #296 on: 06/07/2009 12:34:25 »
Of course it is nothing new. The cloud rises into the atmosphere because of the energy provided by the sun. No one has to lift the clouds into the air but the fact remains many tons of water are lifted into the atmosphere from the ocean and this triggers a density change in the ocean surface water and this triggers circulation. Not rocket science is it? We don't need to work out the exact amount of density change taking place, the fact that it sinks is sufficent.

There is nothing at all new about the mechanism of convection, due to thermal density changes or circulation due to the addition of solutes. The forces and the energy involved all account for the values observed. You seem to be  claiming that you have something new here. Why? No one has denied that it happens - the objection is that you seem to have commandeered it as as 'source' of motive energy.

Of course gravity is involved. When you drop a stone on your foot, 'gravity is involved'. Left to itself, however, gravity won't do it again. Someone has to lift the stone again - providing gravitational potential energy - before it can happen again. 'Gravity' is not the source of the energy, any more than a watch spring is the source of energy for a watch.

You have your usual list of observable processes, as if that actually constitutes proof of anything (apart from the fact that they happen).

As for calculations about clouds vs standing watching them - it depends what you want out of the exercise. If you want a chance of predicting what will happen with a cloud under a new set of circumstances then you need to get some understanding of the Physics involved. As you are posting on a Science Forum, I should have thought that would be your interest. The analysis of clouds is not difficult - it's done all the time, along with a lot of other thermodynamic calculations.
If you had no idea of what was going on in a cloud apart from the fact that it was rising or falling, how would it increase the sum total of human knowledge? You would need to study / measure the parameters of that cloud and then do some ACTUAL SUMS (Andrew!!!!) before you would get anywhere at all.
I'm afraid your maths-free approach to your theories is of even less use than alcohol-free Whiskey.
 

lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #297 on: 06/07/2009 14:36:01 »
Quote
We don't need to work out the exact amount of density change taking place, the fact that it sinks is sufficent.

No, not correct. The actual forces and energy involved are HIGHLY relevant to cloud and air movement if you want to know whether there will be a storm or a breeze. The actual values of the quantities are relevant throughout the real world and to our lives.
Gravity acts on a fly just as it acts on you but you can't walk on the ceiling like a fly because of the (insignificant to you, it appears) relative differences between electric and gravitational forces involved.

Yes - it is as hard as rocket Science, actually. If you don't consider yourself qualified to hold forth on the viability or otherwise of a rocket engine (will it take off or not, given some masses and power specs?) then you are not qualified to have an opinion about the viability or not of your circulation ideas. How can you  KNOW that the forces involved are due to what you say and not to something else unless you have actually worked out both, in detail?
Nothing "is obvious" when you want to prove an hypothesis.

Just 'like' a creationist, you are ignoring some evidence and repeating, ad nauseam, some other (misinterpreted) evidence. Is that Science?

btw, we have now established that you acknowledge that gravity does not supply the energy for these processes so, perhaps, you will stop telling us that it is the key to the whole thing.
 

lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #298 on: 06/07/2009 16:26:52 »
btw, did you know, AFK, that the water is not "lifted"into the air. It is displaced upwards by good old Archimedes' principle. Warmer or 'damper' air are both less dense so they are displaced by cooler,  dryer air and 'upthrust' upwards.  The old bollocks statement about warm air rising and cold air rushing in to take its place is ,,,,well,,, bollocks. You can't suck air. Some new theories may suck, though!
Work is done against gravity in' lifting' the cloud. The clouds don't just go up because of the Sun they are actually Pushed up by the surrounding atmosphere.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #299 on: 07/07/2009 11:34:07 »
When they bury you will they put your qualifications on your head stone? Or have you contributed something significant we can all remember you by? Enlighten us please.
 

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #299 on: 07/07/2009 11:34:07 »

 

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