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Author Topic: What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge  (Read 18798 times)

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #25 on: 30/01/2009 20:54:12 »
Vern, you better explain that one?
(It's suspiciously like two gauchos frying eggs under their sombreros:)

And while doing it, assume that my name is Nob.
Not that it is (..well maybe?) when you're finished, I hope:)?

----
Not even I know what I mean here?
Ah well:)




I like that :) Good observation!

Give me about an hour and I'll have the Photonics Theory thread going in the New Theories Forum.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 20:55:54 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #26 on: 30/01/2009 20:55:11 »
Should  I be grateful or insulted Vern?
:)
 

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #27 on: 30/01/2009 20:56:47 »
Should  I be grateful or insulted Vern?
:)
I was trying a complement. I meant it as one anyway.
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #28 on: 30/01/2009 21:05:25 »
Awh:)

It's like throwing water on a goose Vern.
Expecting me to be able to be serious for any longer timespan:)

Let's call it by its right name.
'Short attendance syndrome'

My middle name.

---
But I knew you liked it.
Otherwise you wouldn't have bothered to write:)

----

I'll blame it on insufficient understanding of nuances.
And hope that you do the same.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 21:12:50 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #29 on: 30/01/2009 21:11:53 »
Ok; Photonics Theory is now a thread in the New Theories Forum. I just need to put one more graphic which I will add as a reply. I didn't talk about relativity phenomena in the first post of the thread but relativity phenomena develops naturally by assuming flat space-time and the construct of matter which has as its primary constituent fields that must move at the invariant speed of light.
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 21:17:21 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #30 on: 30/01/2009 21:14:43 »
So I will learn something new then.
Good.
 

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #31 on: 30/01/2009 21:32:01 »
So I will learn something new then.
Good.
I was hoping you could teach me by finding a fatal flaw in the scheme.
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #32 on: 30/01/2009 22:37:53 »
Your math have a sounder ground than mine Vern.
When you try to create a mathematical foundation for your ideas you are definitely outside mine competence:)

Then it is people like, ah, none mentioned, none forgotten, (You know which ones I mean anyway:) that I would trust.
I'm pretty sure that one and one makes two (mostly) but otherwise?


 

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #33 on: 30/01/2009 22:47:54 »
But I see you are well versed in physics. I have to confess that there is one flaw that I know about that could be fatal to the Photonic Theory. It is impossible to make a neutrino particle within that scheme. I have been waiting to see what is the final come down on the neutrino. I am not 100 percent certain that it exists but I know many are certain.
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #34 on: 30/01/2009 22:52:48 »
In which way do they break your ideas?
 

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #35 on: 31/01/2009 00:02:34 »
In which way do they break your ideas?
The neutrino is a neutral Lepton. In my scheme any time the path of a photon is bent the result is electric charge. So you can't make a neutral particle with a photon bent into a circle. It would have to exhibit electric charge.

Since the major premise of the whole scheme is: The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field, and you can't reduce a neutrino to an electromagnetic field, the scheme breaks down.

However, the neutrino is alone in this. All other constituents of physical reality in this universe do reduce down to an electromagnetic field.
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 00:05:43 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #36 on: 31/01/2009 01:30:23 »
But there seems to be 'exchange currents' which carry no electric charge and mediate certain types of electroweak interactions?

"The electromagnetic interaction is mediated by an exchanged photon γ. Since the photon carries no electric charge, there is no change in charge between the incoming and the outgoing particles.

The charged-current weak interaction is mediated by the exchange of a charged intermediate boson, the W+, and thus, for example, an incoming neutral lepton such as the νμ is changed into a charged lepton, the μ−.

In the neutral-current weak interactions, the exchanged intermediate boson, the Z0, carries no electric charge (hence the name neutral-current interaction), and thus for example, an incident neutral lepton, such as the νμ, remains an outgoing neutral νμ. "

And this might interest you?
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0105357

---- ------ Quotes ---- ------

In particle physics, flavour is a quantum number of elementary particles related to their weak interactions.
In the electroweak theory this symmetry is gauged, and flavour changing processes exist.
In quantum chromodynamics, on the other hand, flavour is a global symmetry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavour_(particle_physics)

And in theoretical physics, flavour changing neutral currents (FCNCs) are expressions that change the flavour of a fermion current without altering its electric charge.

If they occur in the Lagrangian, they may induce processes that have not been observed in experiment.
Flavour changing neutral currents may occur in the Standard Model beyond the tree level, but they are highly suppressed (the GIM mechanism).

-------

But I will have to read up on this:)
And looking it up some more, I get this sinking feeling that it may take some time.
Years?


 
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 02:04:30 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #37 on: 31/01/2009 01:56:29 »
But there seems to be 'exchange currents' which carry no electric charge and mediate certain types of electroweak interactions?

"The electromagnetic interaction is mediated by an exchanged photon γ. Since the photon carries no electric charge, there is no change in charge between the incoming and the outgoing particles.

The charged-current weak interaction is mediated by the exchange of a charged intermediate boson, the W+, and thus, for example, an incoming neutral lepton such as the νμ is changed into a charged lepton, the μ−.

In the neutral-current weak interactions, the exchanged intermediate boson, the Z0, carries no electric charge (hence the name neutral-current interaction), and thus for example, an incident neutral lepton, such as the νμ, remains an outgoing neutral νμ. "

And this might interest you?
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0105357
 
Yes, but this is all theory; there's no observation there. It is arrived at by manipulating the concepts via arithmetic to predict observable outcomes. I will admit that the predictions are very good but a developed alternative scheme might make predictions that are just as good.

Quantum Theory does not predict relativity phenomena at its fundamental core. And when you analyze it via the Lagrangian maths, it can only predict the existence of mass by postulating the Higgs boson. So theories have limits that take time and much mind muscle to solve.
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 02:02:57 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #38 on: 31/01/2009 02:08:25 »
Well yes, most probably so.
But this thing about flavours interest meŽ.
Just from a 'philosophical' point of view, sort of:)

First I was wondering about colours, and now I found flavours?
Where will I end???

-------

I can see myself trying to explain the flavour of a colour in the 'Langaraian field' in a pub.
I will very fast get towed away by burly men in white clothes:)

'Please Sir, just another quark before I go'
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 02:12:05 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #39 on: 31/01/2009 02:27:55 »
I have to admit that QCD is a fascinating concept and you can spend hours playing with the Feynman diagrams. I don't have any problem using QCD to predict outcomes if I need them. It has been a long time since I needed to do so however. I don't remember a time since I left school.
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #40 on: 31/01/2009 03:09:18 »
Well, I don't even know what charge is?
It seems to me as the photon, we know it exist and we have descriptions for it.
We use it on a daily basis.

But I'm still not sure what the descriptions are talking about.
We can speak of electrons missing and entropy, like time, having an arrow wanting to 'equalize' the difference between those electrons missing and that other end where we have more of them.

"a charge is any generator of a continuous symmetry of the physical system under study.
When a physical system has a symmetry of some sort, Noether's theorem implies the existence of a conserved current. The thing that "flows" in the current is the "charge", the charge is the generator of the (local) symmetry group. This charge is sometimes called the Noether charge."

I like this description though as it is at my level:)
http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~elec201/Book/basic_elec.html

And if one have a burning interest then this one is good too:)
http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid183_gci840676,00.html

And reading those two definitions you will know more than me:)
As my memory is like a sieve.

And I know that you don't need it Vern.
But I'm surprised over how easy it is for me to forget things I thought I knew.
I do it all the time:)

-----'loose'--quotations---

"Noether's theorem (also known as Noether's first theorem) states that any differentiable symmetry of the action of a physical system has a corresponding conservation law.
The action of a physical system is an integral of a so-called Lagrangian function, which is a function of the generalized coordinates and velocities of a dynamical system from which the equations of motion in Lagranges form can be derived.
From there the system's behavior can be determined by the principle of least action.
This seminal theorem was proven by Emmy Noether in 1915 and published in 1918-

And a Langrarian function is just a mathematical 'generalization' that summarizes the dynamics of the system using "any convenient variables" and "generalized coordinates" This makes it easy to incorporate constraints into a theory by defining coordinates which only describe states of the system which satisfy the constraints.

like you can do the same experiment in that jet-plane, as you can on the ground, not having to care that our earth moves at a constant speed of 30 km a second (I think:). So what it seem to state is that as long you are 'stationary' relative a uniformly moving frame of reference you won't notice any difference in your experiment, that is, if I got it right?
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 03:38:20 by yor_on »
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #41 on: 31/01/2009 03:38:31 »
What is spin? What spin?
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #42 on: 31/01/2009 03:45:46 »
A Chevrolet -56 midnight blue with silver stripes.
Out for a spin on the strip.

That would be nice:)

 

Offline Chemistry4me

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #43 on: 31/01/2009 03:46:55 »
Come on, I'm waiting for you to edit something...:):)

--------

But seriously? What spin?
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #44 on: 31/01/2009 03:52:02 »
I tried but i had no 'rights' to your post Sir.
What spin are we spinning now Mr Chem?
*truly suspicious*
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #45 on: 31/01/2009 03:53:07 »
Are you talking about electron spin?
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #46 on: 31/01/2009 03:54:38 »
Yep, just wondering what it is:)
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #47 on: 31/01/2009 03:56:05 »
Have you found the answer?
 

Offline yor_on

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #48 on: 31/01/2009 03:57:53 »
Nope, but I have some practical experiments planned.

Involving a hula hoop and lots and lots of tequila sunrises.
Either one will help, as long as she doesn't hit me:)


------
How many do you think I will need Mr Chem?
She recommended http://www.firetoys.co.uk/juggling/hula_hoops.html

And wants me to sing 'I'm on fire' doing it?
What's his name?
Bruce, ah, lee??
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 04:05:25 by yor_on »
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
« Reply #49 on: 31/01/2009 04:01:26 »
How many do you think I will need Mr Chem?
Hola hoops or the other one? I've got no idea ???

-----

Btw, are you good with waves?

-----

Who is 'she'?
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 04:04:58 by Chemistry4me »
 

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What is spin and :) Why do we need color charge
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