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Author Topic: Is Photonic Theory possible?  (Read 24467 times)

Offline Vern

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Is Photonic Theory possible?
« on: 30/01/2009 21:04:25 »
The photon exists as an electric and magnetic disturbance moving through space. It consists of two points of electromagnetic saturation surrounded by electric and magnetic fields that extend outward through space forever.  The fields change in amplitude in accordance with James Clerk Maxwell's equations and this drives the saturated points moving them through space.

Photon points moving through the fields of other photons reach their saturation amplitude mostly due to their own electric and magnetic fields. However, the fields of all other photons contribute toward this saturation amplitude. This causes the points to reach saturation at a slight offset toward increasing field strength of the other photon fields. This gives rise to the attractive force known as gravity.

When photons collide their fields interact. This can cause the path of each photon to change so that it follows a curve in a local area. When the path of a photon is bent, the electric and magnetic fields cannot be symmetrical in the bend. The area outside the bend is greater than the area inside the bend. The result of this asymmetry is a local electric and magnetic field. The strength of the field is related to the bend radius, such that the tighter the bend the greater the strength of the field. This field causes the path of the photon to bend more in the same direction, so it provides positive feedback to the bend. This causes the bend to be twice as tight as it would be without the feedback.

The path of a photon can be bent so strongly that it forms a complete circle in the space of one wave length. When so bent one polarity of the electric field remains on the outside of the bend so that the circle exhibits an electric charge. When in this condition, the photon is in resonance with itself. This resonance adds to the positive feedback and tends to hold the photon in the circle for an instant. Most circles formed this way are unstable and instantly unfurl so that the paths of the photons become straight again.

There is one certain photon frequency that when curled into this complete-circle pattern, the pattern remains stable. We call this kind of pattern an electron or positron depending upon which polarity remains on the outside of the pattern. This gives rise to the electromagnetic forces.

There are four other frequencies whose complete-circle patterns can be stable when they are combined together so that they form shells such that successive smaller shells are inside the larger shells. Each smaller shell is more massive than its neighboring larger shell. Starting with the mass of the largest shell, the mass of each successive smaller shell, when taken in terms of electron masses, is the square of the mass of the next shell out. The sum of the masses of all four shells is equal to the mass of the neutron. The sum of the three inside shells is equal to the mass of the proton.

The strength of the electric force on the outside of the shells follows the same square of shells rule. Starting with the outside shell, we have 2.5, 6.5, 42.2, and 1787.3 electrons worth of force. Although these forces are much stronger than an electron's force, they must diminish in strength as the inverse square of distance. So, when seen at any distance greater than the radius of an electron, they are exactly the force of an electron.

The strong and weak nuclear forces develop from the electric charges of the three outside shells. When two protons merge so that their outer and next to outer shells interact there are four forces at work. The sum of the forces of these four shells is 6.5 + 6.5 + 42.2 + 42.2 equals the strong nuclear force.


When nucleons merge this way the smaller shells are trapped symmetrically inside the larger shells at a distance inside so that forces balance. Any movement away from this balancing point produces a greater force until the smaller shells break through to the outside. This gives rise to the well known nuclear dynamics of the strong force.

Edit: I changed the title to be a question to help search engines find it.

« Last Edit: 12/04/2009 16:00:18 by Vern »


 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #1 on: 30/01/2009 21:22:07 »
Of course if this scheme gets any following we will have to name the shells Quarks :)
Source Code for the Calculator
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 23:08:54 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #2 on: 30/01/2009 21:32:13 »
This should be possible to test for
"When photons collide their fields interact. This can cause the path of each photon to change so that it follows a curve in a local area. When the path of a photon is bent, the electric and magnetic fields cannot be symmetrical in the bend. "

Couldn't one use lasers in a BEC, maybe?

"The area outside the bend is greater than the area inside the bend. The result of this asymmetry is a local electric and magnetic field. The strength of the field is related to the bend radius, such that the tighter the bend the greater the strength of the field. This field causes the path of the photon to bend more in the same direction, so it provides positive feedback to the bend. This causes the bend to be twice as tight as it would be without the feedback."

This I will need to read some more times:)
I'm sure that there are good physicists and mathematicans on this site that can give you ideas.

--------

But if you look at it as waves meeting?
Will that express itself the same?

Quenching light for example.

-------

" This field causes the path of the photon to bend more in the same direction, so it provides positive feedback to the bend. This causes the bend to be twice as tight as it would be without the feedback."

Do you see this as a self induced resonance phenomena?
--------------------
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 21:42:02 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #3 on: 30/01/2009 21:39:15 »
Quote from: yor_on
This I will need to read some more times:)
I'm sure that there are good physicists and mathematicans on this site that can give you ideas.
I thought of three possibilities. First, someone may find a fatal flaw and dispose of the scheme straight away. Second, someone may be able to derive the Fine Structure Constant as the ratio of the bend radius of the photon's path to the amplitude of the electric charge of an electron. Third, most people will probably ignore it.  :) But I had fun making it.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #4 on: 30/01/2009 21:46:56 »
I don't find it impossible, but as you say, it has to be self consistent.
And work with what we already know from experiments.

There are people here, knowing their stuff.
And a idea is there for the 'dissecting'.
And if it dissects well:)

It may grow up to a theory.
Otherwise, depending on the guys/gals behind it, perhaps reincarnate.

------

But the absolute best is if it creates an explanation for something we can't explain now::))
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 21:49:27 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #5 on: 30/01/2009 21:48:26 »
Quote from: yor_on
Do you see this as a self induced resonance phenomena?
No; but resonance does play a part. It requires the positive feedback plus resonance to hold the electron in the pattern.

Edit: After rereading your comment; I think that you could call it a self-induced resonance phenomena; I didn't catch your meaning at first.
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 17:25:21 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #6 on: 30/01/2009 21:56:33 »
" There is one certain photon frequency that when curled into this complete-circle pattern, the pattern remains stable. We call this kind of pattern an electron or positron depending upon which polarity remains on the outside of the pattern. This gives rise to the electromagnetic forces."

But 'matter'?
The atoms nucleus and the way quarks gets more 'restrective' the further they are 'moved' from each other?

You write "Any movement away from this balancing point produces a greater force until the smaller shells break through to the outside. This gives rise to the well known nuclear dynamics of the strong force."

What produces that 'greater force' and how do it get stronger with 'distance'?

« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 22:00:12 by yor_on »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #7 on: 30/01/2009 22:17:11 »
And one other thought.

You see photons as consisting of different lightquanta right?
That is one of the things I'm not sure of yet:)

That as, relativity seen, I have this notion that what we build our ideas about red shift on expects light to be of a defined light quanta?

As waves you can explain different light strengths as waves 'peaking' more in the same time interval but when seen as particles?
 
If it wasn't, we shouldn't be able to trust the red shift we see, or am I exposing my utter ignorance here?

 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #8 on: 30/01/2009 22:59:22 »
Quote from: yor_on
You see photons as consisting of different lightquanta right?
That is one of the things I'm not sure of yet:)
Yes; a photon is quantized because of its points of saturated electric and magnetic fields. The maximum EM field amplitude of every photon is the same value. That is the cause of all quantum phenomena according to this scheme.
Quote from: yor_on
That as, relativity seen, I have this notion that what we build our ideas about red shift on expects light to be of a defined light quanta?
I'm not sure I get your meaning here. Relativity phenomena develops naturally because the most fundamental constituent of matter must always move at the invarient speed of light. And we have known since 1909 that this would produce relativity phenomena in flat space-time.
Quote from: yor_on
As waves you can explain different light strengths as waves 'peaking' more in the same time interval but when seen as particles?
 
If it wasn't, we shouldn't be able to trust the red shift we see, or am I exposing my utter ignorance here?
I am sure there is some great wisdom in your last two sentences; but I have not yet figured out what it is :)
« Last Edit: 03/05/2009 17:54:50 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #9 on: 30/01/2009 23:01:15 »
Quote from: yor_on
Do you see this as a self induced resonance phenomena?
No; but resonance does play a part. It requires the positive feedback plus resonance to hole the electron in the pattern.

Sorry, as it is an 'interaction' you are perfectly correct.
My thought was that I was treating whatever amount of photons interacting as a 'system' of one:)
That as they according to theory can be superimposed on eachother.

That seems to mean that when you have two photons interacting they become one new.
But they don't, do they?
Even thought they take no 'place'?

Awh, they gives me a headache.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #10 on: 30/01/2009 23:08:06 »
Quote from: yor_on
You see photons as consisting of different lightquanta right?
That is one of the things I'm not sure of yet:)
Yes; a photon is quantized because of its points of saturated electric and magnetic fields. The maximum EM field amplitude of every photon is the same value. That is the cause of all quantum phenomena according to this scheme.
Quote from: yor_on
That as, relativity seen, I have this notion that what we build our ideas about red shift on expects light to be of a defined light quanta?
I'm not sure I get your meaning here. Relativity phenomena develops naturally because the most fundamental constituent of matter must always move at the invarient speed of light. And we have known since 1909 that this would produce relativity phenomena in flat space-time.
Quote from: yor_on
As waves you can explain different light strengths as waves 'peaking' more in the same time interval but when seen as particles?
 
If it wasn't, we shouldn't be able to trust the red shift we see, or am I exposing my utter ignorance here?
I am sure there is some great wisdom in your last two sentences; but I have not yet figured out what it is :)

Gotta admit that I'm not sure on that last one either:)
My thought is as follows.

If we have a redshift created by expansion etc.
We can define stars of different magnitude but we will still have a problem with distance.

If we also define lightquanta as of being of stronger or weaker 'innate' strength then it seems rather difficult to know what magnitude those stars might be of and therefore our universes size?

As their relative strenght (redshift) have to be related to their magnitude.
And how will we define a 'weak' star if we don't can have a 'gold standard' distance-magnitude wise?

As it becomes to my untrained thoughts more difficult to decide what the magnitude/distance of any given star might be?
But I'm not sure on that one, so it was just a thought:)

Am I bicycling now?
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 23:12:27 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #11 on: 30/01/2009 23:16:03 »
Photonic Theory doesn't change the way we view the universe. It simply views subatomic particles differently. Once we have the particles, current mainstream theory applies to construct all the various examples of matter.

Of course there are some macro consequences. As I mentioned in another thread, this scheme can't describe a neutrino. And I can not conceive of how matter of this nature could produce a Black Hole.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #12 on: 30/01/2009 23:23:16 »
Ok, matter not, it's still interesting Vern.
I will have to reread this.
:)
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #13 on: 31/01/2009 17:17:47 »
Ok, matter not, it's still interesting Vern.
I will have to reread this.
:)
I am keeping a mindset for problems with Neutrinos, and anything that indicates that an electric charge develops in the bent path of a photon. Those two things are potential killers for the scheme. If we find electric charge develops in the bent path of a photon, that would indicate that we may need to make a serious study of it.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #14 on: 01/02/2009 12:06:38 »
Quote from: yor_on
This I will need to read some more times:)
I'm sure that there are good physicists and mathematicans on this site that can give you ideas.
I thought of three possibilities. First, someone may find a fatal flaw and dispose of the scheme straight away. Second, someone may be able to derive the Fine Structure Constant as the ratio of the bend radius of the photon's path to the amplitude of the electric charge of an electron. Third, most people will probably ignore it.  :) But I had fun making it.

You seem to have some interesting ideas. As I look at your diagrams from my dot-wave theory, it appears to me that the photon is a spherical type wave which exists in the dual electrical universe most of the time when traveling at light speed C. Then the dual-wave (positive and negative) reaches a zero point which is the intersection with the mechanical universe. The three universes are only separated by the Plank Length. One is t + delta T, t - delta t and just t for the mechanical universe.

  In effect the photon appears as two pieces which are mirror images of each other. Externally it is electrically neutral. Internally it has the strong fields as your diagram indicates.

   You want to make an electron from the photon. To me that is not readily possible by bending it. Then it would only be a battery with an outside minus charge and an inner positive charge.

  As I see it, two high energy photons can hit each other. Some of the positive wave of photon one will become part of the wave of photon two. Some of the negative wave of photon two will become part of the wave of photon one. Then

Photon 1 + Photon 2 = electron + positron

   So then your photons will bend as you indicate. The outer part of the electron or positron will have the excess negative or positive wave. The inner part will have a neutral blend of my dot-waves. My dot-waves are only bits and pieces of the photonic wave.

   Anyway your ideas gave me other ideas to think about.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #15 on: 01/02/2009 13:29:28 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
As I see it, two high energy photons can hit each other. Some of the positive wave of photon one will become part of the wave of photon two. Some of the negative wave of photon two will become part of the wave of photon one. Then

Photon 1 + Photon 2 = electron + positron

   So then your photons will bend as you indicate. The outer part of the electron or positron will have the excess negative or positive wave. The inner part will have a neutral blend of my dot-waves. My dot-waves are only bits and pieces of the photonic wave.

   Anyway your ideas gave me other ideas to think about.
I didn't show photon 2 in the schematic but you are correct, it takes two photons interfering with each other.

I wrote a computer program that bends a sine wave consisting of positive and negative half cycles into a circle one wave length in circumference. I was surprised to see that when so bent, either the positive or the negative half cycle remains on the outside of the bend all the way around.

Here's the source code | Here's the class library

The software compiles and runs in Linux with the SDL class library installed.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #16 on: 01/02/2009 17:26:56 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
As I see it, two high energy photons can hit each other. Some of the positive wave of photon one will become part of the wave of photon two. Some of the negative wave of photon two will become part of the wave of photon one. Then

Photon 1 + Photon 2 = electron + positron

   So then your photons will bend as you indicate. The outer part of the electron or positron will have the excess negative or positive wave. The inner part will have a neutral blend of my dot-waves. My dot-waves are only bits and pieces of the photonic wave.

   Anyway your ideas gave me other ideas to think about.
I didn't show photon 2 in the schematic but you are correct, it takes two photons interfering with each other.

I wrote a computer program that bends a sine wave consisting of positive and negative half cycles into a circle one wave length in circumference. I was surprised to see that when so bent, either the positive or the negative half cycle remains on the outside of the bend all the way around.

Here's the source code | Here's the class library

The software compiles and runs in Linux with the SDL class library installed.

This sounds good. From a far distance the net charge would be zero even though the outside would be  positive or negative. However if we go to neutral subparticles such as the neutrino, it could have a very local positive or negative electrical field. Thus it could have a net zero DC charge and a magnetic moment.

  Then if we add two together we will get surface attraction between a positive particle and an antiparcle. Which might hold together. Later they will split into two photons.
   For the electron or the positron your curved photon does not appear to produce a proper electrical field. But for a neutron subparticle, it is a great possibility.  Instead of an even mixture of my dot-waves, we have a distribution of negative dot-waves on the outside and positive dot-waves on the inside.
   My positive and negative dot-waves live in different universes. So the positive on the outside and the negative on the inside is an interesting combination
  In general I do not work on the details of the dot-waves. I am happy to say that the photon is a balanced blend of plus and minus. Anyway I think your ideas are basically sound for neutral subparticles which are not quite so neutral as your study indicates.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #17 on: 01/02/2009 18:00:34 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
For the electron or the positron your curved photon does not appear to produce a proper electrical field. But for a neutron subparticle
No; jerrygg38, when curled into a resonant circle the photon presents the same charge to the outside of the circle all the way around. The other charge is to the inside all the way around. I've checked it out pretty much and the charge amplitude is consistent with the Fine Structure Constant when it is considered to be the ratio of the bend radius of the path of the electron's comprising photon to the charge amplitude of the electron.:)
Below is the output of the software linked above. It is an animated model of a neutron. The shells are all to scale, except the innermost which would be too small to see at this scale.



A neutrino particle, if it exists, would be fatal to the concept. This whole concept is based upon the premise that: The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field. I have never seen a way to reduce a neutrino particle to an electromagnetic field.

Quote from: jerrygg38
In general I do not work on the details of the dot-waves. I am happy to say that the photon is a balanced blend of plus and minus. Anyway I think your ideas are basically sound for neutral subparticles which are not quite so neutral as your study indicates.
I see that you're pretty close to the mainstream thinking here; just change the name of your dot-waves to virtual photons and you're right in the middle of QM:)
« Last Edit: 01/02/2009 18:12:07 by Vern »
 

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #18 on: 12/04/2009 06:43:20 »

I thought of three possibilities. First, someone may find a fatal flaw and dispose of the scheme straight away. Second, someone may be able to derive the Fine Structure Constant as the ratio of the bend radius of the photon's path to the amplitude of the electric charge of an electron. Third, most people will probably ignore it.  :) But I had fun making it.
After reading this thread, I would say it should not be ignored. I am really drawn to this idea Vern, quite a reasonable and beautiful scheme. I think you're really on to something my friend............Ethos
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #19 on: 12/04/2009 07:18:52 »

I thought of three possibilities. First, someone may find a fatal flaw and dispose of the scheme straight away. Second, someone may be able to derive the Fine Structure Constant as the ratio of the bend radius of the photon's path to the amplitude of the electric charge of an electron. Third, most people will probably ignore it.  :) But I had fun making it.
After reading this thread, I would say it should not be ignored. I am really drawn to this idea Vern, quite a reasonable and beautiful scheme. I think you're really on to something my friend............Ethos

To be fair, this is verns own construct, one i could envision taking on pivotal roles of using eigenvalues to describe his diagrams which remind me of the photon-photon collision creating an electron and a positron. You see, for each eigenvector of a linear transformation, there is a corresponding scalar value called an eigenvalue for that vector, which determines the amount the eigenvector is scaled under the linear transformation, and this is purely complicated at best to visualize sometimes.

Butn for an example, an eigenvalue of +2 means that the eigenvector is doubled in length and points in the same direction. An eigenvalue of +1 means that the eigenvector is unchanged, while an eigenvalue of −1 means that the eigenvector is reversed in sense. If two photons come together and ''bind'' to create new particles, it seems that the combined energy of two photons allows their contruct to create both a particle and an antiparticle. Could such eigenvectors help decribe these differential factors (+, -) when the resolution has been made in the collision?
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #20 on: 12/04/2009 15:13:19 »
Quote from: Ethos
After reading this thread, I would say it should not be ignored. I am really drawn to this idea Vern, quite a reasonable and beautiful scheme. I think you're really on to something my friend............Ethos
Thanks for the comments, Ethos; there's lots more discovery that could be done along the lines of this scheme. For example we need:

(1) An equation showing how the Fine Structure Constant relates to the bend radius of a photon. We know from observing starlight that the charge from the bend is felt by the photon as positive feedback that bends the path more in the same direction. The amount is the same as the original bending force producing twice the bend. And we know that at the bend radius of the electron, the force is equal to the charge of an electron.

(2) We think gravity is the result of photon points of saturation occurring at an offset toward increasing field strength of residual photon fields. Does gravity share the available saturation amplitude with Planck's constant such that the value of Planck's constant is less in a strong gravitational field? If so, this would limit gravitation and prevent the formation of a Black Hole.

(3) An experiment to measure the actual close-up electric charge of a proton; according to this scheme it will be 6.50209 times the strength of an electron. But since the force diminishes as the square of distance, it will be exactly equal to that of an electron at any distance greater than the electron's radius.

And many more. :)
« Last Edit: 12/04/2009 15:53:28 by Vern »
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #21 on: 12/04/2009 15:23:16 »
Quote from: Mr. Scientist
Butn for an example, an eigenvalue of +2 means that the eigenvector is doubled in length and points in the same direction. An eigenvalue of +1 means that the eigenvector is unchanged, while an eigenvalue of −1 means that the eigenvector is reversed in sense. If two photons come together and ''bind'' to create new particles, it seems that the combined energy of two photons allows their contruct to create both a particle and an antiparticle. Could such eigenvectors help decribe these differential factors (+, -) when the resolution has been made in the collision?
Yes; according to this scheme, a particle anti-particle pair is created when photons of sufficient energy collide. I have not modelled the interaction, but I assumed that each photon would become a particle, one of which would be the anti-particle. Each particle still contains both the positive and the negative fields. The polarity  of the field on the outside of the pattern determines the charge of the particle.
 

Ethos

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Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #22 on: 12/04/2009 22:49:15 »

A neutrino particle, if it exists, would be fatal to the concept. This whole concept is based upon the premise that: The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field. I have never seen a way to reduce a neutrino particle to an electromagnetic field.

According to my understanding, there have been several experiments that insist upon the neutrino's existence. However, above and beyound that issue, about your inquiry as to the electromagnetic character of the neutrino, I found this information that may be of interest to you: 

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part4/section-3.html

Hopefully, this may hold some answers to help with your investigation.

As a side; I have always believed that the neutrino has rest mass. I've never been comfortable with the dismissal for the conservation of energy.

BTW, I still think your theory can work because I feel certain the neutrino has electromagnetic characteristics..........Ethos
« Last Edit: 12/04/2009 23:12:20 by Ethos »
 

Offline Vern

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Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #23 on: 12/04/2009 23:09:21 »
Thanks for the link Ethos; it is very interesting. I suspect there is a bias toward accepting a neutrino particle as real because it provides a nice symmetry for particle theory. For example, the explanation of the missing mass/energy in beta decay only gives two options:
Quote from: the link
the
masses of the electron and proton and their kinetic energy---it never
equals that of the rest energy of a neutron.  Thus, one has two
choices, either energy is not conserved or there is a third decay
product.
It then goes on to assume that the third decay product must be a particle. It could just as easily be a gamma ray photon, which is my suspicion.
 

Ethos

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Is Photonic Theory possible?
« Reply #24 on: 12/04/2009 23:14:19 »
It could just as easily be a gamma ray photon, which is my suspicion.

Interesting posibility.............How would we go about justifing this position?
 

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