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Offline tamurello

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Consciousness and Reincarnation
« on: 25/04/2005 12:43:59 »
This picks up on a earlier thread here I was reading before deciding to join - just today.

Like many other people, I just have what you may call an ‘inner conviction’ regarding this.  I have had feelings and impressions of the awareness of past lives going right back to early childhood as far as I can remember – but no real distinct, discrete memories as such.  According a number of philosophies it seems that what you carry forward – and what are important from your incarnations, are your feelings, impressions and reactions to a life’s events (your Karma?) – in short, conscious qualia.  These will inderlie, and be built upon by your current life.  Qualia seem to be attributes of pure consciousness and are difficult to explain in terms of brain function.  Current science is busy trying to discover the nature of consciousness and it is one of the hot topics of the day.  The key to rational, scientific understanding seems to lie in the realms of quantum mechanics, and it certainly seems to be barking up the right tree to me.  (I know its not a strictly ‘scientific’ attitude, but I have a very strong intuitive sense of ‘rightness’ about this i.e it has the ring of truth to me, and although it is still ‘theory’, I would have to put myself on that side of the fence.)

For most of my life I have had a more or less mechanistic view of life – I am a life and earth scientist by training.  However, with the development of quantum mechanical ideas regarding consciousness, it has enabled me resolve a lot of conflicts between the rational and the ‘spiritual’.

If consciousness exists right down to the subatomic level, could it be the fundamental principal underlying reality?  Consciousness comes first, material reality as a product of it.  At the time of the big-bang (a misleading term as an explosion as such, requires time and space – there wasn’t any at that time) – the great ‘coming into being’ of our universe, consciousness was an integral, determining feature of it – which may even have created it as it became ‘aware’.

Could it be that what we call consciousness is indeed the ‘creative force’ in the universe which creates order from chaos – and at the basic quantum level enables energy to become coherent matter (wave/particle duality etc).  Life has quantum coherence and is thought to manifest quantum characteristics in the greater world (according to R. Penrose and others) – thereby providing the medium through which the creative imperative can operate to increasing scales of magnitude (as life evolves).  So, could living things be indeed focusing the universal consciousness to discrete points – able to further create order from disorder.  Our consciousnesses are like cups of water drawn from the sea of the universal consciousness at birth and returned at death.  If this is the case, could the same cup be drawn more than once?  Or maybe there could be  fractal fields of consciousness (– reaching from the individual to the species – planet etc.) which develop as the overall universal increases in its complexity.   Individual consciousnesses then may recycle.

Would be great to talk more on this!


 

Offline Tronix

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Re: Consciousness and Reincarnation
« Reply #1 on: 27/04/2005 02:27:24 »
Ah, now science touches on philosophy.

I tend to think that physical exsistance is matreial at its base, but matreality is not the bas of exsistance, nor do i think consciousess is. Just exsistance itself is the base, the everything and nothing paradoxial energy/matter of chaos/disorder. Infinity if you will. This paticular collection of exsistances we know of could ave been formed by consciousness or it coudl be the physcial world formed conscioussness, and i tend to beileve the later, since i think our conscioussness are too unlikley to agree on relaity to maintian it, unless "god" is the one entitiy holding it all together. I think that exsistance is a machination rather than a dream, but it is one without definition. If all the worlds aware things died, i still think there woudl be something, but it would be formless, colorless, massless, and merely potential, the proverbial fog of the unknown, only not a fog, and not nothing, but not anything in paticular. And whose to say that people are the only aware. Perhaps matter itself, like rocks and trees, are aware, to at least a defining way "i am a rock", just no way to communicate (hence rock spirits, tree spirits, etc). And i believe in reincarnation myself, and do ponder spirits and ghosts at times. Qunatum Physics certainly has changed the face of science, that is certain.



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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
 

Offline tamurello

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Re: Consciousness and Reincarnation
« Reply #2 on: 27/04/2005 12:08:10 »
Hi ‘Tronix’, nice to talk.  I kept my previous post quite short (!), so as not to put any replies off or talk anyone to death!

Anyway - good points you make, and I would like to take our discussion a bit further.  I feel we may be ending up with a bit of a flat-Earth type situation here i.e. ‘common sense’ tells us the Earth must be flat – because it looks flat to us and if it were a sphere, we would fall off (what an absurd idea!).  Likewise, common-sense tells us that material reality is the primary reality.  However as I’m sure you can see what I am getting at – common sense is no reliable way to understand the way things really are.  We assume that material reality is the primary reality in a ‘just-so’ kind of way.

It is looking more and more to me like there is a factor – part of quantum mechanics-which brings potential realities to actuality in time and space, starting with fundamental particles.  Anyone with an outline knowledge of the basics of quantum mechanics knows that particles such as electrons etc. exist in the wave function, occupying all over their electron shell (Heisenberg’s… etc.), until observed somehow, which creates a strong enough probability of occurance at a position fixed in time and space (‘wave-function’ collapses).  Then the electron will manifest as a particle via interaction with the observer.  This implies a form of consciousness on the part of the particle – or rather this may indeed be the nuts and bolts rudiments of consciousness at its most basic level.  In this way consciousness creates reality (Copenhagen interpretation) or rather may select what reality materialises from all the parallel potential realities forming the ‘multiverse’.

Anyway, I don’t want to turn this into a quantum mechanics lecture as apart from anything else I am not exactly qualified for that.  I want to discuss philosophical and scientific aspects.  It has been suggested that the Universe came into being as soon as a living consciousness evolved somewhere in one of the various parallel universes and thus collapsed the probability wave for the first time. What I feel is maybe more likely is that the various interactions between fundamental quantum particles played the part of ‘observation’.  

This same element could then operate collectively when quantum coherence is achieved on the larger scale – e.g in living systems.  Thus the essence of what we call ‘consciousness’ manifests in the otherwise inanimate classical physical realm.  What consciousness ‘is’ is the faculty of observation and collapse of the quantum wave function – to thus select from the multiverse and materialise particle reality in our universe.  This is what happens whenever a choice between alternatives is made.  And all living things have this property – they act spontaneously and select probabilistic outcomes of events.  Isn’t that what separates the inanimate from the animate?

Anyway I’ve said enough again for now I think.
 

Offline Tronix

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Re: Consciousness and Reincarnation
« Reply #3 on: 27/04/2005 21:36:12 »
So, to summarize, your saying that Qualia (or soul, spirit, that slab of conscioussness that travels with us through reincarnation) is at the base of consciousness, and that consciousness is at the basis of reality, which is also the creative force of reality?

Anyone else would say its poppycock, but i know i dont know any better, and its better to start on the wrong end then never start at all.

I think that reincarnation is possible. My girfiend has memeories dating back from egypt, and i know she has no reason to lie. I personally believe in magic and spirits and reincarnation myself. And it woudl be nice if these thigns coudl have an explination.

I perosnally think that the soul is an energy that exsist on some other plane. QM has suggested other dimesnions of existance exsist, and i think theses other dimensions are the bits of reality that dont manifest on this dimension. Souls, for example, could be on a dimension that shares our spatial coordinates, but not time, and its matter doesnot interact with ours very often, excpet in cases of "ghost huantings" maybe. These souls, which trnasend our physcial bodies, could be leftover energy trials form the workings of our minds over the years, sort of like a cystal. As we grow and our synapes fire and our mind make memories and physcial reality changes from quantum coherence, and this sort of "builds" a construct of spiritual energies that can be accsessed by the consciouss mind when it manifests again, like a mental spiritual mangentisim, or the mind being a browsing and reincarnation memories being a website in our history file. I also think our conscious mind might also exist on some other dimension of exsistance.

Personally, my belief is that the soul must be some kind of form, and that it does exsist and is indefitely long lived, if not eternal. As for what are its properties, i dont know. what do you think Qualia is made of?

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"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
 

Offline tamurello

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Re: Consciousness and Reincarnation
« Reply #4 on: 28/04/2005 12:52:12 »
[:o)] Yes, this may all be ‘poppycock’ – and then it may not.  All ideas which turn our preconceptions on their heads are laughed at and ridiculed at first.  To summarise what I suggest, is that the property of quanta to shift between the wave/particle duality, showing volition if you like, is the basis of what has become elaborated into living consciouness.  I think this then implies that the entire universe – if it sprung from a space/time singularity – has a form of pervasive consciousness which acts as a principle by which things will come into being – starting with electrons etc. to atoms and molecules and then organized larger scale quantum coherent entities.   Without this, all we would have if anything would be an infinity of low energy, long wavelength electromagnetic radiation everywhere.  I remember someone well known commenting words to the effect ‘why does the universe bother to exist?’

I tend to take as my starting point – and it is only an opinion, that the universe began at a point – a singularity and expanded outwards.  This was a single quantum event.  Before (?!) that there was nothing, nowhere, nowhen.  One of the implications of QM is that everything is linked – if the above was true, it couldn’t be any other way.  The universe is like an infinitely quantum entangled mass.  But I’m digressing.  The kind of universal consciousness I talk of is not like our consciousness as such but is a force/principle (with the ability to self-observe?) which is opposite to entropy – creates order, as opposed the thermodynamic entropy which goes the other way – towards ever decreasing organisation.  We have to take another leap of inspiration so to speak if we then consider that living consciousnesses are indeed like a hologram of the universal consciousness – as another implication of QM is that quantum phenomena have this nature.  

But, to link this to ‘souls’ etc. – funnily enough I have had ideas similar to yours i.e energy trails created through our lives.  I have an idea about long-term memory along these lines.  Short-term memory could be thought of as like the RAM of a computer, more explainable by brain function.  However I suggest that long-term memory is more of a quantum-consciousness phenomenon.  As we progress through our life making our choices, decisions and collapsing probability waves as we go, we create a ‘time-line’.  When we think back and recall long-term memories, we are actually looking back along that line.  You have to remember that on a quantum level, time is flexible and sometimes serial time has no meaning.  So, it is conceivable that on death, this time-line is left behind forming a permanent feature in the universal – which itself tends toward greater and greater complexity.  There are then questions (more than there are answers here), such as could another being pick up that timeline as its consciousness forms and continue it?  Anyway, we are in the realms of pure philosophical speculation now.

As for qualia – I would know what to say as to what they are made of.  They seem to be a product of pure consciousness.  Qualia are conscious sensations like ‘the redness of red’, ‘the sweetness of sweet’ etc.  Overall feelings of the sensations of things.  In a way how the brain/mind talks to the soul.  I have always thought – what actually starts thoughts and feelings and intentions in the first place as they are totally spontaneous?  Another purely conscious phenomenon is ‘understanding’ – when things ‘click’ and the ‘penny drops’.  It is as if on a very inner level you absorb something and make it your own.  These kind of things are not really made of anything.  They are I feel events in the pure consciousness and thus are more in the realms of quantum events.[8D][8D]


 

Offline Tronix

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Re: Consciousness and Reincarnation
« Reply #5 on: 29/04/2005 01:57:22 »
interestingly enoguh, there has been a few findins in biology that i have heard about that sya that life doesnot evolve but some much as "build" itself as though consciously. Dna is formed asseblym line style by individual "molceular machines" (i believe thats what they call em). So the universe could have been built simlar to that.

SO basicallyt your theroy is the universe has a principle that allows it to build its self, just as it destroys itself. That makes sense. And that this principle is the basis of our conscioussness, and that are mind s are reflections of this principal/conscioussness.

I gotta know. How do you define conscioussness? Is it the human capacity for intution? Is it emotion? Is it faith? Is it logic? Understanding? Reason? Imagination? The ability to build a complex metal circutry? Dreaming? Willpower? All of these things? To better know what were both talking about, we shoudl knwo what we mean by conscioussness. When you type conscioussness, im thinking of a mind able to make choices between items, even if they are not the path of least resistance, agaisnt machination and instinct, with forethought and hindsight, perhaps even a goal in mind, and of course, stimuli to propel this discsion making. When you say "universal conscioussness", do you mean the universe decides to be the way it is?

And by the way, i liek your theroy on reincation memory being drawn from a quantum time line, like a huge shoebox or moive file full of the events in our past lives.

--------------------------------------------
"If i cannot have company whose minds are clearly free, I would prefer to go alone."                  -Dr. Gideon Lincecum

The BPRD rejected my application becuase their brain-controled by Cthulhu Rip-offs. And im sure "Sparky" is sleeping with them too, kinky little firecracker she is...
 

Offline psikeyhackr

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Re: Consciousness and Reincarnation
« Reply #6 on: 30/04/2005 06:43:35 »
 

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Re: Consciousness and Reincarnation
« Reply #6 on: 30/04/2005 06:43:35 »

 

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