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Offline amrit

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Idea that in the universe information and energy transfer could be immediate is not well accepted in main stream. However several experiments confirm that is possible, ??? see about that my article on web below

http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/ITT_phenomena_Sorli__2009.pdf

yours amrit


 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #1 on: 02/02/2009 15:49:03 »
Idea that in the universe information and energy transfer could be immediate is not well accepted in main stream. However several experiments confirm that is possible, ??? see about that my article on web below

http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/ITT_phenomena_Sorli__2009.pdf

yours amrit

I'm studying your PDF document but when I came to this I paused for clarification. You seem to be saying that the effect of gravity is instantaneous and not limited by the speed of light. However resent experiments showed that to the limits of the instruments, the effect of gravity propagated at the speed of light.

Here is a link to one such experiment.
Headline form the link:
Quote
By Alan Boyle
Science editor
msnbc.com

SEATTLE, Jan. 7, 2003 - Albert Einstein can rest a little easier: The first effort to measure how quickly gravity exerts its influence indicates that it more or less matches the speed of light, scientists reported Tuesday. If the results had come out differently, it would have cast new doubt on Einsteinís view of general relativity ó and in fact, some doubters contend that the latest measurement by no means closes the case.

Here is the quote from your document.
Quote
       Massive objects moving in space change immediately space density
infinitely far away. In this sense all stellar objects in the universe are in a direct
gravity connection. Transfer of gravity force is immediate for all massive
objects that exist in the universe. So gravity force is a primary force of the
universe, it connect universe in a whole.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2009 16:46:45 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #2 on: 02/02/2009 22:05:54 »
Information is something following spacetime.
If we look at it on a macroscopic level everything from light to matter obeys certain limitations.

FTL without any information would be useful for ??? what?
Information is a good description of one limitation we seem to have.
Just like Planck size and HUP is other limitations.

There is nothing hindering an object changing velocity in space to feel the gravitational effects directly.
That is not the same as saying that gravitation is without a speed though.

Think of space and gravity as a three dimensional 'net' connected to matter.
This mesh 'holes' might be at planck size.

If one of the objects in this 'mesh' breaks its velocity suddenly (affected by some 'out/inside force') the reaction in the 'mesh' on this object will be immediately, although the 'ripples/information flow' created from it will propagate outwards from it at 'c'.

It is not strange if you see it this way, and it satisfies both propositions without needing to become FTL.

But this mesh can be seen as FTL if you like, just as entanglement can.
But neither of them will be able to propagate any useful/meaningful information faster than light.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2009 22:11:03 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #3 on: 02/02/2009 22:22:15 »
Quote from: yor_on
Think of space and gravity as a three dimensional 'net' connected to matter.
This mesh 'holes' might be at planck size.

If one of the objects in this 'mesh' breaks its velocity suddenly (affected by some 'out/inside force') the reaction in the 'mesh' on this object will be immediately, although the 'ripples/information flow' created from it will propagate outwards from it at 'c'.
I can see that when thinking in terms of the dimpled mesh of GR that a body at a certain spot in the mesh will feel the effects of that spot instantly. And since bodies can't spontaneously change their mass, it is difficult to devise a test.

The folks in the link claim to have done it, but I notice that they have detractors who say they were simply measuring the speed of light and not the speed of gravity propagation.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #4 on: 03/02/2009 00:12:03 »
"Density of energy in a given volume of the universe is a sum of density of
space energy, density of matter energy, density of electromagnetic energy and
has tendency to be constant. Where density of matter is high, density of space
is low and opposite. 

In  the areas of  low  space density gravity  forces between quanta of space are stronger, space  is more curved. Where there is no matter density D of  space  is  higher  gravity  forces  between  quanta  of  space are less strong. Density D of physical space in a centre of massive material object is D = 1/m where m is a mass of the object. "

I don't see how this mean?
What is meant by 'low density of space?'
Like space is some 'substance'

Where you have a black hole, neutron star, or any type of 'gravity well', 'space' will get 'convoluted' and seen as if it was a 'substance' it would be thicker/denser.

But space is not a substance, it is the absence of a substance.
And the 'energy' inherent in what we call 'space' is not 'hidden energy' inside a 'substance'.

Space is an extension of the existence of matter, they belong together like the two sides of a coin.
Matter can be 'broken down' to photons, photons can be superimposed into a 'dimension less' point.
When we have a QM strata we will also find what we call space between 'particles'.
Although times arrow is different, and possibly not valid at that level, space will exist as a part of those particles.

How those particles mass together and form 'matter' seems to me as some sort of 'symmetry breaks'
A probably very fast transition, if you like, in between the gluon quark soup, to the creation of 'matter'.

And what we call 'matter' gives us an arrow of time:)
To me it seems as much to have to do with symmetry's and transitions as with what we call dimensions.

So I think Einstein was very right in seeing it as a whole thing, 'spacetime'.

------
I might even want to propose that 'dimensions' weren't there at all before those symmetry's and transitions had had their 'effect'.

And the strangest thing then becomes what we call time.
When I wrote that it had no 'validity' in a QM situation I meant it as seen from our times arrow.
It may well be so that time 'works' differently than we think and that what we have in spacetime is some sort of 'anomaly'.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2009 00:17:53 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #5 on: 03/02/2009 03:41:26 »
Quote from: yor_on
And the strangest thing then becomes what we call time.
When I wrote that it had no 'validity' in a QM situation I meant it as seen from our times arrow.
It may well be so that time 'works' differently than we think and that what we have in spacetime is some sort of 'anomaly'.

I see a lot of reference to the arrow of time in your posts. It must have special meaning for you. I sense it as an arrow pointing always forward toward the future and time must change from now to the future. I think you see it the same.

Quote from: yor_on
Space is an extension of the existence of matter, they belong together like the two sides of a coin.
Matter can be 'broken down' to photons, photons can be superimposed into a 'dimension less' point.
When we have a QM strata we will also find what we call space between 'particles'.
Although times arrow is different, and possibly not valid at that level, space will exist as a part of those particles.
I have a problem visualizing the superimposed photons into a dimensionless point. I know that there is no violation of principle for photons to superimpose but I wonder if they must not be entangled to do so. It's just a gut feeling but it feels like the photons would need to be a little out of phase to superimpose like this.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #6 on: 03/02/2009 12:42:14 »
A beautiful observation Vern.

Don't remember the mans name for the moment (not Feynman, but near?)
He got this idea that all photons were one and the same, if I remember rightly?
Aha, a physicist and serious to boot he was too.
And, he made some sense too:)

I just love physics, don't you::))
If he was allowed to see photons that way I will see them as ???
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #7 on: 03/02/2009 14:00:15 »
A beautiful observation Vern.

Don't remember the mans name for the moment (not Feynman, but near?)
He got this idea that all photons were one and the same, if I remember rightly?
Aha, a physicist and serious to boot he was too.
And, he made some sense too:)

I just love physics, don't you::))
If he was allowed to see photons that way I will see them as ???


Richard Feynman; I have a some of his books; I think it was he who invented the Feynman diagrams for nuclear interactions and particle transfer.

Yes; I love natures natural universe. The physics community tries to explain how that universe works. So far I think, as a community, we're pretty close to doing that, but we are not quite there yet :)
« Last Edit: 03/02/2009 14:02:36 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #8 on: 03/02/2009 15:06:27 »
Yes Vern, to me time is a mystery.

As it allow us to do this, and at 'times' even succeed to make 'sense' out of it:)
And I know that there are more than me wondering about 'time'.

I don't see it as events, it's more of a flow macroscopically.
But when you go down to a QM perspective it seems to loose its arrow?
But that doesn't 'diminish' it into 'events' to me.

It just change 'times symmetry'.
And if we can't make sense of that.
Then either I'm wrong, or we can't yet see 'time' for what it really is.

As I said, if our 'spacetime' is a 'anomaly' then 'time' as we experience it is a very local expression, and what we see at a QM scale is just another 'reflection' of its true nature.

As there seems to be something even beyond QM?

---

You see, time is a symmetry to me, and to split a 'symmetry' into 'events' just creates what you want to abolish:)
Namely 'time'

Time is a very 'whole' experience.
Binding what I see as 'transitions'.
That some see as being 'events'
--

We don't really have 'time' as an 'arrow' as I see it, but we do do:) in 'spacetime'.
And it is very real here.
Not easily 'broken'.
If ever.

---

I should also point out, to make my thoughts a little more understandable, that 'time' when seen as 'events' still will have an 'arrow'.
The only difference being that 'you' will define it from your expectations.
And when saying that it can go both ways you still define the arrow as you expect it to lead to something.
So it is not satisfactory to me.

If you see time as a 'whole' then in that 'sea/jello' there will be 'transitions', some of them very 'local' and defined by local parameters, and some 'stratifying' over a more 'global' 'area'.

It is very difficult to define how I think, I don't have the words for it really.
But time is weird:)
« Last Edit: 03/02/2009 15:40:18 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #9 on: 03/02/2009 15:54:00 »
I can visualize time as you describe it. And I can see that without events or transitions it would difficult to imagine what time is.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #10 on: 03/02/2009 16:08:10 »
Well Vern.

When I once started to wonder about what 'spacetime' was that was what I thought of as the 'KingPin' of it all:)
Then I've changed my minds some times, but somehow I've always come back to this question.

So photons is a Quantum mechanical expression we freely observe without problems in 'spacetime'.
Matter is a macroscopic expression that we also have no problems 'defining'.
'particles' seems to me as something 'in between' and photons is a very special type of 'particle'.

And gravity to me (for now:) is just an local expression of that same combination of parameters creating 'spacetime'.
So I'm happy to see for example how you, as well as others of course, look at photons to see what other descriptions there might be.

As I don't know:)
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #11 on: 03/02/2009 16:26:05 »
Yes; I do like to understand other peoples views about everything. Especially stuff that is a little "far out". Your views are pretty close to home. I think I understand them now.

I started on my quest to understand nature with a simple test. I wanted to know if an old idea that was popular at the turn of the 20th century could possibly be true. That old idea was: The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field. To test the idea I put together two postulates as I said in another thread.

The primary postulates are:

(1) This universe consists only of unvarying space and time in which electric and magnetic forces operate.

(2) The physical laws of nature are universal, real, and can not be violated.

Now with such a tight restriction you would think it impossible to describe this universe in such a way that it is consistent with observations. But that is just what I did.

The link is to the entry in the New Theories forum that you have already seen.


I worry that we're getting way off topic here.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2009 16:32:29 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #12 on: 03/02/2009 16:36:52 »
----

Didn't come out as I wanted, my post above yours .
All to pompous for my taste:)

I hate that

What I mean is that I'm always looking for better definitions.
Finding clear thinking and clear explanations is more like Christmas than Christmas itself:)

And also I like to get other ideas than mine.
As long they are ready to be 'nitpicked' by me and others:)

That is...

----

And no, I don't think you are off topic at all.
--------

It is ideas that keep my mind awake.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2009 16:41:38 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #13 on: 03/02/2009 17:09:52 »
Quote from: yor_on
Then I've changed my minds some times, but somehow I've always come back to this question.
Now I see the source of your brilliance. Plural minds :)
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #14 on: 03/02/2009 17:33:22 »
Hah, prove it
*Both turns around and walk away :)*

------

Awh..
English:)
 

Offline amrit

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« Reply #15 on: 11/02/2009 16:36:03 »
Hi Vern

First, a phenomena (gravitational waves) that should keep together 2 stellar objects can not move between them, because it must have constant contant with both of them in order to keep them together.
Second, gravity radiation by matter was never observed.
Electromagnetic waves have been observed, but gravity waves not.

Gravity is working in space directly between quanta of space and indirectly onm matter.

yours amrit


Idea that in the universe information and energy transfer could be immediate is not well accepted in main stream. However several experiments confirm that is possible, ??? see about that my article on web below

http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/ITT_phenomena_Sorli__2009.pdf

yours amrit

I'm studying your PDF document but when I came to this I paused for clarification. You seem to be saying that the effect of gravity is instantaneous and not limited by the speed of light. However resent experiments showed that to the limits of the instruments, the effect of gravity propagated at the speed of light.

Here is a link to one such experiment.
Headline form the link:
Quote
By Alan Boyle
Science editor
msnbc.com

SEATTLE, Jan. 7, 2003 - Albert Einstein can rest a little easier: The first effort to measure how quickly gravity exerts its influence indicates that it more or less matches the speed of light, scientists reported Tuesday. If the results had come out differently, it would have cast new doubt on Einsteinís view of general relativity ó and in fact, some doubters contend that the latest measurement by no means closes the case.

Here is the quote from your document.
Quote
       Massive objects moving in space change immediately space density
infinitely far away. In this sense all stellar objects in the universe are in a direct
gravity connection. Transfer of gravity force is immediate for all massive
objects that exist in the universe. So gravity force is a primary force of the
universe, it connect universe in a whole.

 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #16 on: 11/02/2009 16:48:53 »
Quote from: amrit
First, a phenomena (gravitational waves) that should keep together 2 stellar objects can not move between them, because it must have constant contant with both of them in order to keep them together.
Second, gravity radiation by matter was never observed.
Electromagnetic waves have been observed, but gravity waves not.
I think the first sentence is an assumption that would need a lot more verification before folks could use that concept in some meaningful way.  I guess I can agree that neither gravity waves or gravity particles have ever been observed. The cause of gravity is pretty much speculation, no matter whose idea you like best.
 

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