The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Wheatgrass as a healing food...  (Read 47659 times)

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #25 on: 25/02/2009 12:38:11 »
Date corrections

Tuesday observations:

I could smell 7 times before the first wheatgrass serving
I could smell 2 times between the 1st serving  to the 2cd serving;
I could smell 39 times between the 2cd serving to 3rd serving.
I could smell 17 times after the 3rd serving.

The real surpise was I could taste five times today.
That was unexpected, although, since those two senses are related it makes sense.

I will continue at three 8 ounce servings tomorrow (Wednesday)

Steve D.


 

Offline _Stefan_

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Album
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #26 on: 25/02/2009 13:00:15 »
Your observations don't mean much unless you can be more precise about them. You can start by answering my questions.
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8645
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #27 on: 25/02/2009 19:01:06 »
SteveD, they don't mean much anyway because they may be entirely psychosomatic.
Until you can do a blind (and preferably double blind) trial you are not going to convince anyone.
Evidence is not the plural of anecdote.
 

Offline _Stefan_

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Album
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #28 on: 25/02/2009 21:21:54 »
BC, exactly. I was hoping if he would answer my questions, we could go from there.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #29 on: 26/02/2009 05:28:37 »
SteveD, they don't mean much anyway because they may be entirely psychosomatic.
Until you can do a blind (and preferably double blind) trial you are not going to convince anyone.
Evidence is not the plural of anecdote.


BC,

I'm not trying to convince anyone.

I would be interested in learning new ways of learning about wheatgrass and it's uses ...and your suggestion of blind and double blind testing seems useful and interesting to me. As requested below, a simple, cost effective means to testing would be helpful. The testing needs not to be simply scholastic, but germain to the original question "Wheatgrass as a healing food?

Steve D.



I am grateful for your positive input which is what this thread was designed to create.
But most importantly, I am very interested to know how:
"Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smell is progressing."
If you would elucidate I would be grateful.

Steve D.

 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #30 on: 26/02/2009 07:34:08 »
Wednesday observations:

I could smell 0 times before the first wheatgrass serving
I could smell 19 times between the 1st serving  to the 2cd serving;
I could smell 13 times between the 2cd serving to 3rd serving.
I could smell 7  times after the 3rd serving.

I could, again, taste five times today.


Total results for the last seven days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste

I've also lost 3.6 pounds in the last seven day run of wheatgrass usage.


Steve D.

 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #31 on: 27/02/2009 07:14:05 »
Thursday observations:

I could smell 0 times before the first wheatgrass serving
I could smell 22 times between the 1st serving to the 2cd serving;
I could smell 0 times between the 2cd serving to 3rd serving.
I could smell 9  times after the 3rd serving.

I could taste twice today. It my be that the decrease in frequency is affected by an upper respiratory infection I started taking antibiotics for last night.
I've also noticed frequency of the ability to smell increases in peripatetic circumstances and decreases in sedentary circumstances, perhaps due, in the former circumstance, to the changing environments bringing on new smells, and increased lung use.


Total results for the last eight days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

I've  lost 3.6 pounds in the last eight day run of wheatgrass usage.

Unfortunately, with the increase in consumption from two eight ounce glasses to three eight ounces glasses of wheatgrass juice/day the supply is exhausted and will not be replenished for two days

Steve D.


 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1451
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #32 on: 27/02/2009 14:31:21 »
Excellent. A two day rest from the spam.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #33 on: 01/03/2009 10:02:42 »
Friday observations:
No wheatgrass. 19 incidences of smell, 5 incidences of tasting

Saturday observations:
No wheatgrass. 5 incidences of smell, 2 incidences of tasting. Several incidences of perceiving temperature and moisture

Clearly the olfactory sense is diminishing. Starting tomorrow, Sunday, there will begin a fresh new supply of wheatgrass


Total results for the last  ten days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Steve D.
 

Offline dentstudent

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3146
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #34 on: 01/03/2009 10:27:32 »
Steve - the best thing to do would be to find out how to do a scientific experiment. None of what you have done thus far is of any note scientifically, and is ultimately a waste of your time. Please note that I am not trying to belittle you, or say that what you are experiencing is not happening. What I am saying is that the way you are going about it is pointless and will not endear you to anyone here.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #35 on: 01/03/2009 11:04:33 »
Steve - the best thing to do would be to find out how to do a scientific experiment. None of what you have done thus far is of any note scientifically, and is ultimately a waste of your time. Please note that I am not trying to belittle you, or say that what you are experiencing is not happening. What I am saying is that the way you are going about it is pointless and will not endear you to anyone here.

Dentstudent,

LOL...I appreciate your feedback. I am getting better physically as a result of my experiments, regardless of the inchoate nature of my methods and that is this thread's point "Wheatgrass as a healing food".

As far as being 'endearing'. I think Cliff C. likes this and he's the only one who is addressing the original question posed on February 11, 2009. Does anyone have any positive experiences with wheatgrass?"

I remain, however, open to positive suggestions on how to use better methods to explore the use of wheatgrass as a healing food.

Steve D.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #36 on: 01/03/2009 13:09:35 »
...it's possible to measure the sense of smell.
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.
Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.

Bored Chemist,

I have taken your suggestion and titrated one drop of peppermint in 2, 4, 6, and 8 pints of water.
In 2 pints the smell is quite apparent. In 8 pints it's virtually non-existant.
I'm thinking that if I get two bowls, one without peppermint, and have someone else put the single drop in it, and record the results with different quantites of wheatgrass, over time, we might be more...scientific.

PS...the use of gas was just too horrific


Steve D.
 

Offline _Stefan_

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Album
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #37 on: 02/03/2009 03:45:12 »
Please remember that most treatments impart a placebo effect on the patient, regardless of the intrinsic therapeutic properties of the treatment. So you may well feel like you're getting physically better, but since you cannot control for the placebo, you can't actually attribute it to the wheat grass.

If you want to get scientific about testing for peppermint odor, I would suggest that you sit in a closed room while 1 person prepares the peppermint solutions in a different room. They should prepare multiple identical pairs of bowls, numbered, with the peppermint applied randomly. When that person is done, they can knock on your door and leave your presence before you open the door to begin the test. You can mark the bowls that you think contain peppermint. When you're done, your friend can analyze the results with you. Ideally you could repeat this on a different occasion that your sense of smell returns again.

It is usually easier to determine whether effects are being produced, than it is to determine the cause(s) of those effects.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #38 on: 02/03/2009 06:39:21 »
Sunday Observations:

No wheatgrass, 2 incidences of smell, two incidences of taste


Total results for the last  eleven days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

The capacity to smell continues to decline.

Steve D.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #39 on: 02/03/2009 06:41:33 »
If you want to get scientific about testing for peppermint odor, I would suggest that you sit in a closed room while 1 person prepares the peppermint solutions in a different room. They should prepare multiple identical pairs of bowls, numbered, with the peppermint applied randomly. When that person is done, they can knock on your door and leave your presence before you open the door to begin the test. You can mark the bowls that you think contain peppermint. When you're done, your friend can analyze the results with you. Ideally you could repeat this on a different occasion that your sense of smell returns again.

Stefen,

That was useful and positive.

Thanks,

Steve D.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #40 on: 02/03/2009 06:46:31 »
Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

It is impossible for me not to notice a pattern here.

Steve D.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #41 on: 03/03/2009 00:54:37 »
Procedure:

This morning, I measured one drop of peppermint into 8 pints of water. I then poured 4 ounces in a tea cup . In another tea cup I put 4 ounces of plain water. I identified them to my partner. I placed them in another room.  I left. She switched them around. I reentered and tried to identify them. I did this 3 times. 2 out of 3 times I was able to identify which cup was the titrated peppermint.

Then I consumed 12 ounces of wheatgrass and repeated the above experiment. I was able to identify 3 out of 3 times.

Observations:

I think I need to titrate the peppermint bowl more, or use more trials, or both, until I get a 50% ratio of being able to identify, or not, the titrated bowl, to get a clearer control.
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #42 on: 03/03/2009 07:31:52 »
Monday observations:

5 incidences of smell before first wheatgrass
9 incidences of smel after first 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving,one incidence of taste
9  incidences of smell after second 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving, one incidence of taste
11 after incidences of smell after second 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving,



Total results for the last  eleven days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday,with three 12 ounce, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste


There was a 1700% increase in the reported incidences of being able to smell over yesterdays report

 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8645
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #43 on: 03/03/2009 20:55:04 »
Steve,
That's a reasonable start at a measurment of the sense of smell but, as has been pointed out, it's still vulnerable to the placebo effect.
What you need is a "placebo" wheatgrass.
It's possible, indeed quite likely, that your brain is playing tricks on you  (don't take that personally- it happens to everyone).
When you take the grass you expect to have a better sense of smell (and in the same way, when you don't you, expect to lose your sense of smell).
That expectation is enough for the brain to trun up and down the sensitivity to the signals it gets from your nose.

In order to test this properly "blinded" you need a "fake" wheatgrass that you cannot tell from the real thing and you need to get soemeone to give you either the real one or the fake without telling you which it is. Then measure the sense of smell (and the pepermint in water is a pretty good way to do it).
Do this lots of times and then see if, on average, you can smell the mint more reliably when you have had the real wheatgrass as opposed to the fake.

Incidentally, this observation "Clearly the olfactory sense is diminishing. Starting tomorrow, Sunday, there will begin a fresh new supply of wheatgrass"
sugests that the effect is psychosomatic- the placebo effect tends to wear off whereas real healing tends to continue.
 
 

Offline _Stefan_

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Album
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #44 on: 04/03/2009 05:54:47 »
How do you fake wheatgrass?

The taste and smell would give it away. You could administer it through a tube directly to the esophagus, but that's not exactly safe.
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8645
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #45 on: 04/03/2009 19:06:34 »
How do you fake wheatgrass?

The taste and smell would give it away. You could administer it through a tube directly to the esophagus, but that's not exactly safe.
You can't so you cheat.
You get something that's fairly similar- perhaps another grass. Then you add something to both of them that covers the taste and smell.

Pernod and wheatgrass anyone?
 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #46 on: 04/03/2009 22:09:29 »
Tuesday observations:

Made a breakthrough between the second and third servings of wheatgrass. The sensing of smell, instead of being discrete incidences, suddenly became continuous.
 
After 7 incidences of being able to smell before the first serving of 12 ounces
          9 incidences of being able to smell after the first serving of 12 ounces
         11 incidences of being able to smell after the second serving of 12 ounces...Breakthrough

Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.

 

Offline SteveD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 197
  • "God is Truth"...Gandhi
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #47 on: 04/03/2009 22:35:06 »
That's a reasonable start at a measurement of the sense of smell but, as has been pointed out, it's still vulnerable to the placebo effect.
What you need is a "placebo" wheatgrass. In order to test this properly "blinded" you need a "fake" wheatgrass that you cannot tell from the real thing and you need to get someone to give you either the real one or the fake without telling you which it is. Then measure the sense of smell (and the peppermint in water is a pretty good way to do it).
Do this lots of times and then see if, on average, you can smell the mint more reliably when you have had the real wheatgrass as opposed to the fake.


Total results for the last thirteen days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I Had 39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday, with three 8 ounce servings, I Had 31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday, with three 12 ounce servings, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Tuesday, with three 12 ounce servings, I 27 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds before breakthrough into continuous smell


Bored Chemist,

I appreciate your feed back. I don't think that a double blind experiment with 'fake' wheatgrass would be practical, as time is limited.

I think all good experiments probably start with someone noticing, anecdotally, a repeated pattern and then wanting to see if that can be demonstrated accurately to others.
As my purpose was to restore my sense of smell, and in the last two weeks I've done that to my satisfaction, I'm done.

The peppermint testing seems useful if I want to try to communicate to other folks what I've found useful to me.

Thanks,

Steve D.

 

Offline _Stefan_

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 814
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Album
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #48 on: 05/03/2009 06:02:12 »
If all you wanted was anecdote, why did you start this thread on a science forum?
 

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1503
    • View Profile
Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #49 on: 05/03/2009 09:32:14 »
Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.
If a large enough dose can make you acutely ill, wouldn't you worry about the cumulative effects of several smaller doses?  Do we know what active chemicals are in wheatgrass?  Any idea how the body deals with and excretes these chemicals?  If something is to be treated as, or considered medicinal, these are really the sorts of things we should hope to find out.  You could be slowly poisoning yourself.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #49 on: 05/03/2009 09:32:14 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums