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Offline SteveD

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #50 on: 05/03/2009 13:46:45 »
Why did you start this thread on a science forum?

Stefen,

This is much more what I was expecting, frankly...

Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.
If a large enough dose can make you acutely ill, wouldn't you worry about the cumulative effects of several smaller doses?  Do we know what active chemicals are in wheatgrass?  Any idea how the body deals with and excretes these chemicals?  If something is to be treated as, or considered medicinal, these are really the sorts of things we should hope to find out.  You could be slowly poisoning yourself.


The research I did before I started experimenting with large doses of wheatgrass was to talk with:

1) the two most financially successful owners of vegetarian restauarants in the world
2) the two most financially successful wheatgrass growers in the Bay area
3) the quality control expert in the largest organic wholesaler in the Bay area
4) an Ear, Nose and Throat Surgeon (about the olfactory possibilities)
5) the founder of the most successful food addiction program in the world
6) the founder of the largest natural foods spa in the US
7) the most successful vegan chef in the Bay area 

to see if there was an upper limit to the usage of wheatgrass. All consistently said "No". I found that not to be true. At three 16 ounce servings/day there is, in my body, a gastrointestinal reaction as well as cramping in my calves.

After not being able to smell for 19 years and now being able to successfully do that the last two years, if I maintain the dosage, it's hard for me to imagine that something that is that healing and regenerative could be poisonous. As for the reaction two days ago, I think my body would probably react similarly to too much H20 if put in too quickly.

Thanks for the intelligent, non-rancorous dialogue.

Steve D.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #51 on: 05/03/2009 19:43:45 »
Let's face it, 3 pounds of most things in a day would be pushing it.
Incidentally, most of the experts you cite could hardly be viewed as "neutral", particulalry the grower of the stuff.
Hope your sense of smell continues to improve.

So far there's no scientific evidence for the wheatgrass doing anything (apart, perhaps, from making money for the seller/ grower).
The improved sense of smell and the gastric upset might have been coincidentlal or psychosomatic.
I realise that doing the proper testing would be difficult so I can't really blame you for not doing it; just as long as you don't go saying that these observations are any sort of evidence supporting the hypothesis that wheatgrass improves your sense of smell.
 

Offline SteveD

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #52 on: 06/03/2009 10:27:04 »
So far there's no scientific evidence for the wheatgrass doing anything (apart, perhaps, from making money for the seller/ grower).

LOL...Actually, since there was no control to compare it to, we're not even sure of that!


 

Offline SteveD

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« Reply #53 on: 10/03/2009 07:12:29 »
Total results for the last eighteen days of observations:

Thursday, February 19, 2009 with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday, February 24, 2009, with three 8 once servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I had 39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday, with three 8 ounce servings, I had 31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, February 27, 2009 with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday, March 2, 2009, with three 12 ounce servings, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Tuesday, with three 12 ounce servings, I 27 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds before breakthrough into continuous smell
Wednesday three 12 ounce glasses of wheatgrass. Smell is continuous

Thursday March 5 ,2009 one 12 ounce serving of wheat grass...supply ends.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday no wheat grass.
Monday March 9th supply replenishes, by the third meal of the day. One serving of 12 ounces.

A number of things have happened these last five days.

My sense of smell that was continuous has completely stopped working. But it's much much more incendiary than that.

I could not only smell better prior to last Thursday's exhaustion of wheatgrass supply but I could see and hear better. My (and I hate to admit that I have this) arthritis in my knees and L-5 was better. My skin was more oily. My bronchial passages were clearer. My weight had dropped down. My digestion was better. My heart, lungs worked more smoothly and mind (As Cliff C. noted with his experience) was clearer, before I ran out of my unusually high dosages of wheat grass.

Is there scientific evidence using single or double blind testing? No. But in the last two years, come April, the above conditions reappear every time the wheat grass supply exhausts.

It sho' 'nuff is a funny set of repeating conditions...


Steve D.



 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #54 on: 10/03/2009 16:41:51 »
After a while of experiencing an odour you adapt so that you don't smell it anymore so how could you smell continuously?

Quote
It sho' 'nuff is a funny set of repeating conditions...

Yeah, let me summarise it all for you;

Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect. Took placebo. Felt placebo effect.

Do it as often as you like, it adds nothing. As Bored Chemist said, evidence is not the plural of anecdote.

Quote
My digestion was better. My heart, lungs worked more smoothly and mind (As Cliff C. noted with his experience) was clearer

Really, how were you measuring your digestion? are you taking and analysing stool samples? How are you measuring how "smoothly" your heart works? How are you measuring how "smoothly" your lungs work? How are you measuring "mind clarity" ??

Do you think it's rejuvenated your energy field?

If your mind was clearer wouldn't you have realised what everyone has been trying to tell you?
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 16:50:52 by Madidus_Scientia »
 

Offline SteveD

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #55 on: 11/03/2009 08:39:34 »
It's clear to me that this thread is divided into two camps: those who have experience with wheatgrass and find it to have salutary effects and those who do not have experience with it and believe that, since there is no scientific evidence, that this salutary effect is probably impossible, or, at least, not true.

I'm now more interested in production values. Specifically, how to keep a supply at 12 ounces, three times/day, consistently.
Ironically, this is easier to quantify and will therefore be more 'scientific'.

Currently, I have thirty six 17"x 17" trays of wheatgrass growing.

I plant 4 trays/day at using seven, 13 ounce glasses (dry weight)/tray or 22.75 ounces of seed/tray or 91 ounces per day.

Steve D.


 

Offline CliffC

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #56 on: 11/03/2009 16:00:11 »
Hi SteveD,

Long time no post. I was also interested in production values regarding growing wheatgrass.  I've been growing trays of wheatgrass for some time, and have noticed that while it's the easiest thing to get some seeds to sprout, it's tricky to get consistent quality trays of wheatgrass.  They require frequent watering, the amount of sunlight/light affects how fast the sprouts grow, soil amount and quality is a big factor, and when the tray is harvested and juiced I think has a big influence on the nutrient content.

I've noticed when the sprouts get a bit too much for the tray/soil amount and start turning yellow, the juiced product and effect definitely suffers, and there is only a couple days' window before it gets like this.  When you walk into a Jamba J. store and ask for a wheatgrass shot, ever notice half the time the grass in the tray looks like it's dying?  One time I was in Hawaii and wanted a shot of wheatgrass.  The store there only had precut grass in plastic bags, ?how long it had been harvested.

There may be a wide number of factors affecting nutrient content, and that's why I think potentially prefrozen or freeze dried products or other "grass" supplements may not be as effective.

The previous studies that declare no benefit to wheatgrass in controlled studies I don't think took into account many of these variables, and that another reason why the anecdotal or observational effects that many people describe merits more investigation.

The posters that wave it all away to placebo effect are the ones being closed-minded.  Good scientific studies start from observational data, theories and postulates and go from there.

-Cliff
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #57 on: 11/03/2009 18:17:16 »
"It's clear to me that this thread is divided into two camps: those who have experience with wheatgrass and find it to have salutary effects and those who do not have experience with it and believe that, since there is no scientific evidence, that this salutary effect is probably impossible, or, at least, not true."
What about those of us who don't know or particularly care about wheatgrass, but feel that since there's no evidence, this isn't science and possibly shouldn't be on a scientific web site?
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #58 on: 11/03/2009 18:28:05 »
Indeed. Why not post it on your own website, to spare us from your spam.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #59 on: 11/03/2009 19:58:29 »
Closed minded? WOW! Don't you get it? Your "observational data" don't actually have any scientific value at all, because they are anecdotal, completely subjective, and don't control against the placebo effect or any other extraneous variables. We are asking for strong scientific evidence, as we always do - we actually want to find out if wheatgrass is special or not. If anyone is closed-minded, it's you, who insist that it does work and reject the fact that your "data" is miserable. Is there anything that could convince you that wheatgrass doesn't work? If so, what? If not, what a waste of brain.
 

Offline SteveD

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« Reply #60 on: 11/03/2009 20:46:52 »
What about those of us who don't know or particularly care about wheatgrass, but feel that since there's no evidence, this isn't science and possibly shouldn't be on a scientific web site?

BC,

I appreciate your even handedness in discourse. I am not a scientist, but rather a musician and familiar with different standards that would be considered useless in this setting.Things like expression of feelings and renumerative results of performance.

As I did a little research though, my old friend at the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, a mathematician, reminding me that "math is the queen of science", has indicated, while not double blind tested, that the concept of positive correlation is very real and useful in the process of determining objective scientific truth.. If he is not in error, then perhaps, what has been discussed here the last several weeks may be the initiating observations that may spawn more definitive study.

In either case, I'm more interested in production values now...which are quantifiable.

Steve D.
 

Offline SteveD

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #61 on: 11/03/2009 21:11:39 »
Hi SteveD,

I was also interested in production values regarding growing wheatgrass. It's tricky to get consistent quality trays of wheatgrass.  They require frequent watering, the amount of sunlight/light affects how fast the sprouts grow, soil amount and quality is a big factor, and when the tray is harvested and juiced I think has a big influence on the nutrient content.
I've noticed when the sprouts get a bit too much for the tray/soil amount and start turning yellow, the juiced product and effect definitely suffers, and there is only a couple days' window before it gets like this. There may be a wide number of factors affecting nutrient content.

-Cliff

That's been my experience. The potency diminishes quickly after the 'bloom' of harvest has past. You can tell by the yellowing, but even before that there seems to be a wilting that happens. I also juice within 10 minutes of harvest.

I water once day, but the Sandra and Ken water every 15 minutes....Whoa, too much...but they have automation.

I've also noticed that if I plant for three successive days, and then there are three good days of sunlight, that all three trays will be the same height!

I am going to start measuring the yield of juice in ounces/tray (currently at 27.5 ounces of planted dried seeds/tray ) and see what the variables are to try to increase production values...Will report back.

Steve D.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #62 on: 12/03/2009 03:44:13 »
Correlation does not imply causation.
 

Offline SteveD

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« Reply #63 on: 12/03/2009 06:11:09 »

Wednesday 3/11

Screwed up and did not plant on time today before sundown.

91 ounces of seed already starting to 'show tail'.

I can do better than that...

Steve D.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #64 on: 12/03/2009 19:33:46 »
 

Offline SteveD

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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #66 on: 12/03/2009 20:22:58 »
Nice one! :D
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #67 on: 12/03/2009 20:24:54 »
lol
 

Offline SteveD

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« Reply #68 on: 13/03/2009 04:46:18 »
Production study:

I have 36 17'x17'  trays of wheatgrass in various stages of maturation.

Today I harvested 11.75 (dry weight) ounces which yielded 8       fluid ounces of juice- from one full 17"x17" tray
Then   I harvested     8.5 (dry weight) ounces which yielded 4 .5  fluid ounces of juice- from one half (diagonally) of a 17"x17" tray
                                                            and consumed 12 ounces and saved .5 ounces

I also notice for the first time in two years that there was a touch of mold at the bottom of one of the trays in areas where the seed seemed too compacted and did not appear to be germinating as well.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #69 on: 13/03/2009 05:12:21 »
Steve, this is not a blog. No-one cares about your wheatgrass regime. It's not adding anything to scientific knowledge about wheatgrass.
 

Offline SteveD

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« Reply #70 on: 13/03/2009 06:19:24 »
Wednesday February 11, 2009
I wanted to know if anyone else has positive experiences with wheatgrass
Steve D.
San Francisco CA, USA 

Cliff,

As one of the people who have addressed the question asked when this thread was begun, how is your production today?

Steve D.
 

Offline SteveD

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« Reply #71 on: 13/03/2009 13:22:59 »
Production study continued:

 Friday March 13th first cutting of the day

 9 1/8 oz dry weight yields 6 1/8 juice = one whole tray
 7 1/8  dry weight yields    5 7/8=              1/2 tray
    12 ounces consumed

Why the variance in yield in trays planted at the same time?
 

Offline SteveD

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« Reply #72 on: 13/03/2009 14:04:51 »
Yesterdays cutting
20.25 dry oz/ 12.5 fluid oz = 1.62 oz yield

This morning's cutting
16.25 dry oz/12 fluid oz= 1.35 oz yield

20.25/16.25 = 1.25
Why do 1 1/2 trays yield 25% more dry weight than the next?

1.62/1.35= 1.2
And more importantly why does the why does one cutting produce a 20% greater fluid yield/dry ounce?
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #73 on: 16/03/2009 20:58:14 »
Steve, this is not a blog. No-one cares about your wheatgrass regime. It's not adding anything to scientific knowledge about wheatgrass.

I second that motion. Stop spamming.
 

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #73 on: 16/03/2009 20:58:14 »

 

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