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Author Topic: mechanism of gravity  (Read 21062 times)

Offline Vern

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« Reply #50 on: 15/06/2009 22:23:22 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
It may very well be that gravity has several components. At out level and measurements the local effect is sufficient to explain gravity.
You're still adding to the complexity; I suspect that nature is fundamentally simple. Its most fundamental thing from which all other things are made is electric and magnetic change.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #51 on: 16/06/2009 17:54:26 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
It may very well be that gravity has several components. At out level and measurements the local effect is sufficient to explain gravity.
You're still adding to the complexity; I suspect that nature is fundamentally simple. Its most fundamental thing from which all other things are made is electric and magnetic change.

What do you mean by electric and magnetic change. Does this indicate variations of electric and magnetic fields with time? Then you have moving fields. Then you have complex equations of moving fields. As the fields change, they could produce local change and long term change.
  Therefore we get local effects and cosmological effects.
 Please explain what you mean by change.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #52 on: 16/06/2009 18:04:14 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
What do you mean by electric and magnetic change. Does this indicate variations of electric and magnetic fields with time? Then you have moving fields. Then you have complex equations of moving fields. As the fields change, they could produce local change and long term change.
  Therefore we get local effects and cosmological effects.
 Please explain what you mean by change.
Yes; I mean a change in the electric and magnetic amplitude of points in space. When the electromagnetic amplitude of any point changes adjacent points respond and visa versa. And yes; this one simple action does lead to all the complexity of the universe.

I'm working on a computer model of this action. The action is that the point that is greatest in amplitude continues gaining amplitude until it reaches saturation. The first point to reach saturation begins to lose amplitude. This change affects adjacent points, so they don't continue but immediately follow the first point's action.

That is why the dots and their associated waves exist as moving points. The fact that they saturate is the mechanism of gravity.
« Last Edit: 16/06/2009 19:44:11 by Vern »
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #53 on: 16/06/2009 20:11:32 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
What do you mean by electric and magnetic change. Does this indicate variations of electric and magnetic fields with time? Then you have moving fields. Then you have complex equations of moving fields. As the fields change, they could produce local change and long term change.
  Therefore we get local effects and cosmological effects.
 Please explain what you mean by change.
Yes; I mean a change in the electric and magnetic amplitude of points in space. When the electromagnetic amplitude of any point changes adjacent points respond and visa versa. And yes; this one simple action does lead to all the complexity of the universe.

I'm working on a computer model of this action. The action is that the point that is greatest in amplitude continues gaining amplitude until it reaches saturation. The first point to reach saturation begins to lose amplitude. This change affects adjacent points, so they don't continue but immediately follow the first point's action.

That is why the dots and their associated waves exist as moving points. The fact that they saturate is the mechanism of gravity.

Sounds like you are describing a hologram universe or a three dimensional motion picture. Where are the protons? How does a proton split in space to form u-mesons and pi-mesons?
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #54 on: 16/06/2009 21:14:54 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Sounds like you are describing a hologram universe or a three dimensional motion picture. Where are the protons? How does a proton split in space to form u-mesons and pi-mesons?
Protons are composed of three photon shells. When a proton splits apart the three shells unfurl into photons again. During the splitting process observations can show intermediate unstable particles.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #55 on: 16/06/2009 23:04:00 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Sounds like you are describing a hologram universe or a three dimensional motion picture. Where are the protons? How does a proton split in space to form u-mesons and pi-mesons?
Protons are composed of three photon shells. When a proton splits apart the three shells unfurl into photons again. During the splitting process observations can show intermediate unstable particles.


 That is fine. However how can you make the shells from nothingness??
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #56 on: 17/06/2009 11:48:03 »
I have no problem with electric and magnetic fields existing in empty space. It also doesn't matter what empty space is composed of. It is as we find it. The only determinable properties we know about are permittivity and permeability.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #57 on: 17/06/2009 12:25:56 »
I have no problem with electric and magnetic fields existing in empty space. It also doesn't matter what empty space is composed of. It is as we find it. The only determinable properties we know about are permittivity and permeability.

  And the gravitational constant. And the speed of light. etc. And the ability to produce stars and planets. Most importantly the ability to produce the electric and magnetic fields.
   Thus everthing that exists today was produced by the stuff of pure empty space which I maintain is not quite so empty.
 

lyner

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mechanism of gravity
« Reply #58 on: 17/06/2009 19:46:36 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
It may very well be that gravity has several components. At out level and measurements the local effect is sufficient to explain gravity.
You're still adding to the complexity; I suspect that nature is fundamentally simple. Its most fundamental thing from which all other things are made is electric and magnetic change.
It may be "fundamentally simple" in as far as there may be some alternative, very basic equations, which describe what's happening. BUT, have you written them down AND solved them?  Hats off to you if you are anywhere near doing that.
Let's face it, the basic Schroedinger Equation for the H atom couldn't be much simpler. The actual solution is a bit harder, though.  It has one great strength, though - it ties in fairly well, numerically with experimental results.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #59 on: 17/06/2009 21:56:20 »
Quote from: sophiecentaur
Let's face it, the basic Schroedinger Equation for the H atom couldn't be much simpler. The actual solution is a bit harder, though.  It has one great strength, though - it ties in fairly well, numerically with experimental results.
I agree with that; I would like to find a most basic simple relationship between adjacent points in space; but realize that one of the solutions to this most basic relationship must lead to Shrodinger's wave functions to explain atomic behaviour. Also to Maxwell, etc. etc.

I'm looking for it; I have not yet found it. :)
 

lyner

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« Reply #60 on: 01/07/2009 23:49:55 »
With respect, it's not too surprising.
It won't be a stroll in the park!
 

Offline Robert Murray

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« Reply #61 on: 10/07/2009 14:03:06 »
In my original post, I put forward ‘difficult question 3’ about the different collision speeds between a moving mass and a postulated omni directional gravitational field along the line of travel.

The higher the collision velocity, the greater would be the change in kinetic energy so that head on collisions would slow down a moving mass more than would collisions from behind.  Orbiting objects would fall down much more rapidly that has been observed.

This view has been expressed not only in the original post, but also by other visitors to the thread.

If, instead, moving masses do not collide with gravitational particles having mass, but with entities having only energy to impart, a similar problem will arise, because then packets of energy arriving from ahead will have a higher frequency while those arriving from astern will have a lower frequency.  Such energy is a function of amplitude and frequency, so orbiting objects would not stay aloft very long under these conditions either.

Omni directional gravitational fields made up of radiation or matter, or a combination of the two could not therefore create a plausible mechanism for gravity.

In my reply to one or two questions on the subject, I commented that a hypothesis should not be debunked on the basis of assumptions made by the debunker, the above two being examples.  But it has been difficult to find other examples that might work

One possibility comes (not readily) to mind.   It flows in part from the discussion in these pages about saturation states of photons.

Suppose that throughout everything, there are small bursts of energy lasting for approximately zero time each.  They might be caused by intersections from all directions, of radiation to create peaks of reinforcement like Newton’s rings.  And, perhaps also in the fashion of quantum particles -now you see them, now you do not. 

The frequency of interaction between a moving particle and such events might no longer be a function of particle velocity, but of event frequency only.  Further, if we assume that a quantum of energy delivered by a burst to be a constant, then it would not matter in what direction an affected particle is travelling at the time.

In this scenario, we could perhaps have external gravitational force acting on inert mass in a way that does not result in excessively decaying orbits.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #62 on: 11/11/2009 01:40:04 »
How about this for the possible mechanism of gravity?
Time is relative to the observers frame of reference which we all know. A clock in another moving frame of reference slows with respect to our observer. If we had a one kg block setting on a frictionless surface and apply a force of 1kg.m/sec^2 it will accelerate at 1m/sec^2. The only way to increase this acceleration is to increase the applied force OR slow the observer's clock. Isn't this exactly what happens in a gravity well?”

Any particle can be considered it's own clock ( an observer ) and that a clock even one nanometer higher in a gravity well will run slightly faster than a clock one nanometer lower. Suppose we had a frictionless tube, one meter long, whose inside diameter is just large enough to allow a diatomic hydrogen molecule to move freely up and down in the tube. We fill the tube with diatomic hydrogen at STP and stand the tube up perpendicular to the surface of the Earth. Each molecule is moving up and down in the tube colliding with the molecule above and below. Let’s observe the path of a particular molecule which we call B. The molecule above we call A and the one below we call C. We start watching B as it moves down the tube toward C with velocity d/t. The molecule B (clock/observer) will calculate it's momentum, at the instant before the collision with C, using it's clock which is running slightly slower than when it collided with A. B will find it's momentum at C to be greater than the momentum of the collision with A. Doesn't this suggest that gravity is strictly a function of time dilation?
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #63 on: 13/11/2009 02:23:15 »
I can't quite get the picture. My feeling is that gravity is something that manifests itself in the space that matter is moving through. I like to think in terms of depleted electromagnetic field remnants. You may like gravitons, what ever they are, we don't have them defined exactly.

If we explore gravity as something that occupies space, and look at photons moving through that space, we can reduce the problem down to how can that property affect the future path of a photon moving through it? It can not be a direct electromagnetic interaction; gravity is much too weak for that.

My speculation is that gravity contributes to the saturation amplitude of photons so that their points of saturation occur at an offset toward increasing field strength. This causes the trajectory of a passing photon to migrate toward increasing field strength of remnant fields of electromagnetic force.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #64 on: 13/11/2009 04:01:02 »
If time dilation occurs in a gravity well (we know it does), then my mechanism for gravity is correct. The real problem is the mechanism of time dilation. Why does matter and energy cause the dilation? I include energy because I'm ninety nine percent sure that all matter that enters a black hole is converted into radiation and a black hole definitely has gravity, caused by extreme time dilation.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #65 on: 13/11/2009 19:00:07 »
Time dilation is a very simple concept when you consider just exactly what is the time of which we speak. It is a slowing of repeating patterns in atoms. We chose the caesium atom as the time standard.

Now that we have time, we only need to deduce why the patterns repeat more slowly when the atom moves. It is because, at the most elemental level, atomic constituents must always move at the invariant speed of light. The constituents of the repeating patterns must move a greater distance to complete the patterns. Since the constituents are already moving at their constant speed, more real time is required for the pattern to repeat. So the atom experiences time dilation.
 

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« Reply #65 on: 13/11/2009 19:00:07 »

 

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